Audirvana Plus 3 (official thread)

[Jud]

16 hours ago, routlaw said:

Is it an absolute certainty that Direct Mode via A+ as in the past is actually superior sounding to Core Audio? Perhaps an easier question would be what is wrong with Core Audio at least in this context?

 

From @diecaster's link - https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/MusicAudio/Conceptual/CoreAudioOverview/WhatisCoreAudio/WhatisCoreAudio.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40003577-CH3-SW1 - look at the position of drivers in Figure 1-1 (or look at Figure 2-1 and text immediately following) and see what Direct Mode bypasses.

 

Also read the text at this link - https://stackoverflow.com/questions/48046011/macos-high-sierra-edit-kext - saying "The audio driver [Core Audio] appears to implement a DSP chain with some rather complicated signal processing going on. In particular, there is a great deal of dynamic range compression applied to the output as well as other things I'd like to experiment with removing."

 

How much of this Apple allows you to leave out with a certified driver (in other words, what the absolute minimum allowable items from Core Audio are), I don't know.

[jamesg11]

5 hours ago, Jud said:

 

From @diecaster's link - https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/MusicAudio/Conceptual/CoreAudioOverview/WhatisCoreAudio/WhatisCoreAudio.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40003577-CH3-SW1 - look at the position of drivers in Figure 1-1 (or look at Figure 2-1 and text immediately following) and see what Direct Mode bypasses.

 

Also read the text at this link - https://stackoverflow.com/questions/48046011/macos-high-sierra-edit-kext - saying "The audio driver [Core Audio] appears to implement a DSP chain with some rather complicated signal processing going on. In particular, there is a great deal of dynamic range compression applied to the output as well as other things I'd like to experiment with removing."

 

How much of this Apple allows you to leave out with a certified driver (in other words, what the absolute minimum allowable items from Core Audio are), I don't know.

Potentially, re dsp etc, how beneficial might the A+ Windows version prove to be?

[routlaw]

Thanks for the links and additional info!

 

I'm being a bit of a devils advocate here, but with all this fussing around with the various software settings and given the fiasco created by the incompatibility of A+ and Core Audio and Apple,  one has to wonder is all this worth it with a computer based music server instead of utilizing an excellent disc transport such as Jays Audio CD-2 or CD-3 using the I2S output to a DAC with equivalent input. 

 

I haven't yet stepped up to the plate to implement the patch provided previously. 

 

 

[RunHomeSlow]

39 minutes ago, routlaw said:

with all this fussing around with the various software settings and given the fiasco created by the incompatibility of A+ and Core Audio and Apple,  one has to wonder is all this worth it with a computer based music server

 

Again, there is no fiasco and no incompatibility with core audio of mac and or Apple. Direct mode at the time was giving you or for some users, a tiny little pourcentage more in sound... just throwing a number here, my guess would not even be 2% more beautiful music sound.

 

A+ still sounds wonderful without it and for many users, beats all the others soft for being the most versatile with good sound and having a library that is more easy and friendly than the others.

 

you better come here after you try the patch for Direct Mode on Sierra or High Sierra and tell the truth, that all that talking was not worth it ?

[RunHomeSlow]

The difference with software compare to real CD machine is that YOU can make them sound like YOU want and not like the machine that is locked forever. It doesn’t  means you will do better then whats in the box, but If you are not wanting to play with soft... Enjoy your player! ?

[Cherrington]

In the past week I've found that Audirvana Plus 3.2.7 is refusing to accommodate more than one library. For the past year I've been using it at home with the external hard drive that holds all my music and then at work with a portable hard drive that duplicates that collection of music. And the program has always automatically recognized which drive is connected and switched to it, updating the library as necessary. But a few days ago the appearance of the interface changed, the order of albums got rearranged, and while it still recognized which hard drive was connected, it refused to play any music on the work drive, only the home drive. I would get the message "Unable to Load First Track" no matter which album I chose. So tonight I deleted the work drive from the list of libraries, then added it back (a long process with 10,000 albums). And Audirvana played the music on the work drive just fine. But when I unplugged that drive and reconnected the home drive, I started getting the "Unable to Load First Track" message. It's extremely frustrating, all the more so because I didn't change anything in the settings of Audirvana. Anyone know what's going on here?

[buonassi]

13 hours ago, RunHomeSlow said:

.005% better

 

There's no way to say for certain because of the placebo effect, but I really felt the treble relax.  It didn't get softer, it wasn't attenuated, that's not what I mean.  But It seemed a little more natural and smoother with cymbal work, etc.  I described it previously as "sweeter" sounding.  But that's a really poor way to describe I suppose.  

 

More precise, diffuse and airy would be a better way to describe it.  You know when you're having a really good "audio night", when the mains noise is quiet and some musical passages that are normally complex seem to slow down and are better articulated?  It did that with the treble for me.  

 

I'll probably revisit this post in a few years and feel foolish, having drank the audiophile coolaid, but I guess this is part of the fun.  Just keep digging for iterative improvements.  And if YOU SENSE and improvement, and it brings you joy, then I suppose mission accomplished.  These things happen so rarely, you have to remember to celebrate by actually listening to music and letting go of the audio nirvana pursuit every now and then.  

[buonassi]

12 hours ago, Jud said:

"The audio driver [Core Audio] appears to implement a DSP chain with some rather complicated signal processing going on. In particular, there is a great deal of dynamic range compression applied to the output as well as other things I'd like to experiment with removing."

 

What would be interesting is if someone with the RME ADI-2 DAC could do the "bit perfect" test with a Mac and see if it passes.   Page 63 of the manual:

 

http://www.rme-audio.de/download/adi2dac_e.pdf

 

Should we lobby users on that thread?

[rodrigaj]

I am a relatively new A+ user, so perhaps I don't understand something.

 

But...I don't get the whole Direct Mode thing. A+ 3.x.x intended purpose is LAN connectivity. Is it not? I know you can put it into local, but I thought that was just an accommodation.

 

Am I missing something? (It wouldn't be the first time).

[diecaster]

Clearly Macs can do bit perfect to DACs otherwise MQA would never work. So I would take that post worrying about "dynamic range compression" and ignore it.

[buonassi]

26 minutes ago, rodrigaj said:

I don't get the whole Direct Mode thing. A+ 3.x.x intended purpose is LAN connectivity. Is it not?

 

Renderers and network players over LAN are now supported, true.  For these configurations, Direct mode doesn't apply.  But as I understand it, A+ has it's roots in Mac to DAC USB connections and many users are still enjoying it this way (I am one).  

 

28 minutes ago, diecaster said:

Clearly Macs can do bit perfect to DACs otherwise MQA would never work.

 

yes, I too would be surprised if macs weren't bit perfect - and you have a point about MQA.  I think Jud is presenting a logical case for what may be happening, not what is actually occurring.

 

Out of curiosity, how are you getting MQA tracks from Mac to DAC?  Tidal via A+ or do you have purchased tracks and perhaps using another player? 

[diecaster]

10 minutes ago, buonassi said:

yes, I too would be surprised if macs weren't bit perfect - and you have a point about MQA.  I think Jud is presenting a logical case for what may be happening, not what is actually occurring.

 

Out of curiosity, how are you getting MQA tracks from Mac to DAC?  Tidal via A+ or do you have purchased tracks and perhaps using another player? 

 

Jud doesn't understand the how bypassing the Core Audio API is not possible anymore. He thinks that all you need is a signed driver. He also doesn't understand that Core Audio can pass bit perfect data to a DAC.

 

I am using a sonicTransporter i5 and a Bridge II card in my DirectStream DAC along with Roon. I stopped using Audirvana quite a while ago as it is inferior to what I am using now.

[pl_svn]

6 hours ago, RunHomeSlow said:

a library that is more easy and friendly than the some others.

 

fixed that for you 

let's now wait for the new UI 

[RunHomeSlow]

7 hours ago, buonassi said:

 

20 hours ago, RunHomeSlow said:

.005% better

 

There's no way to say for certain because of the placebo effect

 

 

There was a smiley right after that you removed ?

[jimdukey]

Where can we Get these Placebos?

Thx to the Simpsons...

[jimdukey]

According to most at the AA, MQA Doesn't work!

I've been unable to buy any MQA Files I might want, due to Country Restrictions, and the fact that the Onkyo Music Site didn't work for me at all.

I only have the Updated Dragonfly Red that would decode MQA, but don't want to pay for Streaming Tidal,

but would buy 2 or 3 Files to check it out , if I could.

[Browniesbane]

I had a basic question. One of my setups uses A+ to control a microrendu which then feeds a schiit multibit dac. I don’t use A+ to up/ over sample because of the DAC. Sound wise what is A+ doing for me in this setup? No oversampling, no choice of integer mode, and no direct mode, and I am not using A+ to process MQA or DSD.

 

 

I also have a direct computer to usb set up, so I am very happy  to keep using A+; , but am courious about the impact on the first mentioned system.

 

 

[greentrumpet]

22 hours ago, RunHomeSlow said:

 

I think you need to completely erase your hard drive and then boot with an installer of El Capitan to make it work.

 

Glad you are back to listen to music and forget that Direct Mode existed

 

I'm glad too!

Both Apple and the shop that I bought the new MBP from said I could not use El Capitan with my MBP. The Apple store won't provide it saying my MBP is incompatible. I had to completely wipe the drive to re-intall Sierra which is as far back as I can go. But it's good to be able to access all my music again!

[routlaw]

7 hours ago, diecaster said:

I am using a sonicTransporter i5 and a Bridge II card in my DirectStream DAC along with Roon. I stopped using Audirvana quite a while ago as it is inferior to what I am using now.

 

Interesting, so the Sonic Transporter is a media server? Presumably the connection is via ethernet rather than I2S? Good grief has this stuff ever become too complex. Is it any wonder why so few people adopt going this route (not just your particular method) and load up a bunch of compressed music on an iPhone with a pair of ear buds and call it good.

 

I can't imagine this segment of the market (computer audio) is in a growth period. Please don't mistake this as a disparaging remark to anyone, but having left computer audio alone for the last few years and just now coming back into again I'm really astonished not only at how so much has changed but the level of complexity has grown exponentially. 

 

Thanks

[Jud]

8 hours ago, diecaster said:

 

Jud doesn't understand the how bypassing the Core Audio API is not possible anymore. He thinks that all you need is a signed driver. He also doesn't understand that Core Audio can pass bit perfect data to a DAC.

 

I am using a sonicTransporter i5 and a Bridge II card in my DirectStream DAC along with Roon. I stopped using Audirvana quite a while ago as it is inferior to what I am using now.

 

Interesting to read about what I think and what I don't understand.  (Amusing to read that I don't think Core Audio can pass bit perfect data.)

 

Don't hire yourself out as a psychic.

[Jud]

42 minutes ago, routlaw said:

 

Interesting, so the Sonic Transporter is a media server? Presumably the connection is via ethernet rather than I2S? Good grief has this stuff ever become too complex. Is it any wonder why so few people adopt going this route (not just your particular method) and load up a bunch of compressed music on an iPhone with a pair of ear buds and call it good.

 

I can't imagine this segment of the market (computer audio) is in a growth period. Please don't mistake this as a disparaging remark to anyone, but having left computer audio alone for the last few years and just now coming back into again I'm really astonished not only at how so much has changed but the level of complexity has grown exponentially. 

 

Thanks

 

I think our grasp of new ideas, not just in computer audio, works in phases.  First everything seems pretty simple just because you aren't aware of the complexities.  Then as you learn more everything seems really damn complicated.  And then finally you understand something about how the different pieces fit, and about what's more important and what's less important.

 

Right now you sound like you're in the second phase.

[Jud]

2 hours ago, Browniesbane said:

I had a basic question. One of my setups uses A+ to control a microrendu which then feeds a schiit multibit dac. I don’t use A+ to up/ over sample because of the DAC. Sound wise what is A+ doing for me in this setup? No oversampling, no choice of integer mode, and no direct mode, and I am not using A+ to process MQA or DSD.

 

 

I also have a direct computer to usb set up, so I am very happy  to keep using A+; , but am courious about the impact on the first mentioned system.

 

 

 

Hmm, no choice of integer mode?  I wonder if the DAC doesn't accept 32-bit float, so it's essentially always in integer mode.  (Just throwing out ideas, I don't know what's going on.)

[Jud]

9 hours ago, rodrigaj said:

I am a relatively new A+ user, so perhaps I don't understand something.

 

But...I don't get the whole Direct Mode thing. A+ 3.x.x intended purpose is LAN connectivity. Is it not? I know you can put it into local, but I thought that was just an accommodation.

 

Am I missing something? (It wouldn't be the first time).

 

You can have either LAN connectivity or (with older or new patched OS) Direct Mode, but not both at once.  Direct Mode operates as a USB DAC driver, so if the computer running A+ isn't directly connected to the DAC via USB, no Direct Mode.

[rodrigaj]

2 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

You can have either LAN connectivity or (with older or new patched OS) Direct Mode, but not both at once.  Direct Mode operates as a USB DAC driver, so if the computer running A+ isn't directly connected to the DAC via USB, no Direct Mode.

 

Good. Not something I need to worry about since I will never have a computer in my music room.

 

When I run A+ on my LAN from a dedicated Mac mini I am in the Integer Mode. I'm not sure what that is but from the manual I think it is a good thing. I mostly care about the ease with which A+ handles SRC to DSD 128.

[jimdukey]

SRC to DSD 128.

I you convert PCM to DSD 128 ( I do ), then Integer Mode doesn't apply.

AFAIK, that is.