Audirvana Plus 3 (official thread)

Jud · May 5, 2018

1 hour ago, routlaw said:

@runhomeslow, thanks for the additional info, just downloaded the file. It is worth pointing out also, there is a thread on the audio asylum forums that had some excellent information on this issue.

1. Abe Collins states rather emphatically that Direct Mode is part of a Core Audio scenario and A+ step out of its bounds by even trying to implement this mode bypassing Core Audio. He is a software designer and seems to know what he is talking about. This is not meant, at least by me to chastise Damien, but apparently there is some truth to this one issue.

This is really ludicrous. (Not meaning to criticize you, but rather to comment on what you read.) Nearly everything in everyone's computer uses device drivers and has for as long as computers have been around. Do you worry about the graphics card drivers that make it possible for you to read this? Those weren't coded by Apple either.

As long as someone is capable of coding a competent driver, there isn't anything to worry about. You can ask the hundreds (thousands?) of us who've run Direct Mode for years without incident whether Damien can code a competent driver.

This is a different matter than whether you should do a backup before installing the patch if you decide to do it, and take care to follow directions precisely when doing so. Of course you should.

diecaster · May 5, 2018

4 hours ago, Jud said:

This is really ludicrous. (Not meaning to criticize you, but rather to comment on what you read.) Nearly everything in everyone's computer uses device drivers and has for as long as computers have been around. Do you worry about the graphics card drivers that make it possible for you to read this? Those weren't coded by Apple either.

As long as someone is capable of coding a competent driver, there isn't anything to worry about. You can ask the hundreds (thousands?) of us who've run Direct Mode for years without incident whether Damien can code a competent driver.

This is a different matter than whether you should do a backup before installing the patch if you decide to do it, and take care to follow directions precisely when doing so. Of course you should.

No, it's not the same as a graphics card driver. Direct Mode is is accessing aspects of the system that Apple no longer gives developers access to. It doesn't matter that Direct Mode worked great for years. Apple did not make the change arbitrarily. Anyone using Audirvana should get used to the fact that Direct Mode access is gone.....the patch that has worked will not work forever.

RunHomeSlow · May 5, 2018

Yes Apple don't give access to Direct Mode now...

it doesn't mean that is the best thing to do for music lovers...

It just means that they protect themself from bad people or bad software developpers...

not from good developper as Damien with A+...

they just close the door to everybody and don't listen, like always now...

like just now, to not authorize not 64bit soft with next update...

Direct Mode for you with A+ is worth it or not... you hear it, not us

you could wait for A+ for PC just around the corner and see if it is better...

Mmmm PCs

routlaw · May 5, 2018

Didn't mean to get anyone upset, but for those who would like to read through this thread (not very long) the link is below, make what you will of it. Again I don't have a dog in this race, but there does seem to be some merit to what Abe Collins has stated. He certainly has way more knowledge in software design than I do. In any case I don't have any interest myself in migrating to a PC just for the sake of Direct Mode, even if there is some improvement in the sound, and for all we know even with Direct Mode on a PC using A+ the sound might be worse than whats attainable with our given systems on the Mac. And who in their right mind would want to go through all that trouble and expense just to find out? Not me.

All that out of the way, this is one thing I really don't like about a computer based music server. Whether its this issue or others we are not aware of yet coming down the pike make no mistake at some point there will, and always has been incompatible hardware/software issues. I have dealt with this in my photography business and its no different with audio as a hobby. At some point your existing computer will be outdated and time to purchase a new one. It doesn't matter if its Windows, Linux or Mac its inevitable. Case in point I just had to put my previous server, a Mac Mini Mid 2009, to bed because it could not update to an OS that could utilize A+ 3.xx. So for now I am using my Mac Book Pro in the interim, and running on battery supply and it still beats the pants of all other digital formats I have on hand to try.

We all get to choose our poison, then live it I suppose.

https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=169198

Jud · May 5, 2018

10 hours ago, diecaster said:

No, it's not the same as a graphics card driver. Direct Mode is is accessing aspects of the system that Apple no longer gives developers access to. It doesn't matter that Direct Mode worked great for years. Apple did not make the change arbitrarily. Anyone using Audirvana should get used to the fact that Direct Mode access is gone.....the patch that has worked will not work forever.

But of course Apple does give developers permission to access that part of the system, though so far Damien is not among them (which is why he asked us to lobby Apple on his behalf).

As for not lasting forever - certainly true, but then nothing does.

Jud · May 5, 2018

2 hours ago, routlaw said:

Didn't mean to get anyone upset, but for those who would like to read through this thread (not very long) the link is below, make what you will of it. Again I don't have a dog in this race, but there does seem to be some merit to what Abe Collins has stated. He certainly has way more knowledge in software design than I do. In any case I don't have any interest myself in migrating to a PC just for the sake of Direct Mode, even if there is some improvement in the sound, and for all we know even with Direct Mode on a PC using A+ the sound might be worse than whats attainable with our given systems on the Mac. And who in their right mind would want to go through all that trouble and expense just to find out? Not me.

All that out of the way, this is one thing I really don't like about a computer based music server. Whether its this issue or others we are not aware of yet coming down the pike make no mistake at some point there will, and always has been incompatible hardware/software issues. I have dealt with this in my photography business and its no different with audio as a hobby. At some point your existing computer will be outdated and time to purchase a new one. It doesn't matter if its Windows, Linux or Mac its inevitable. Case in point I just had to put my previous server, a Mac Mini Mid 2009, to bed because it could not update to an OS that could utilize A+ 3.xx. So for now I am using my Mac Book Pro in the interim, and running on battery supply and it still beats the pants of all other digital formats I have on hand to try.

We all get to choose our poison, then live it I suppose.

https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=169198

I think you make a very good point here about the rapid pace of turnover in computer hardware and software development. I figure I need to upgrade my computers every so often (Mac is 2009 vintage, PC 2010), so music playback won't require additional expense beyond what I'd be doing anyway.

Absolutely no need to apologize. Speaking for myself, I'm certainly not upset. It's simply that I've seen this "OMG, it's touching the kernel" line before (when Damien first brought out Direct Mode, a rival developer tried to run with the same thing), when hundreds of processes in all our computers do this all day long.

As @diecaster correctly points out, Damien no longer has Apple's permission to have his driver interact with the kernel in Apple's newest OSs, so any of us who does the patch is doing it on his own (with some community support). But that didn't suddenly turn a competently coded driver into something incompetent and dangerous.

diecaster · May 5, 2018

57 minutes ago, Jud said:

But of course Apple does give developers permission to access that part of the system, though so far Damien is not among them (which is why he asked us to lobby Apple on his behalf).

As for not lasting forever - certainly true, but then nothing does.

No, Apple does not. You don’t seem to understand the fundamental change Apple made. No one can write code that accesses the audio interface the way Audirvana did with “direct mode”.

You our make it sound like Apple chose to block a Damien specifically. That’s not how it works.

RunHomeSlow · May 6, 2018

10 hours ago, diecaster said:

No, Apple does not. You don’t seem to understand the fundamental change Apple made. No one can write code that accesses the audio interface the way Audirvana did with “direct mode”.

You our make it sound like Apple chose to block a Damien specifically. That’s not how it works.

No, i'm sure Jud understand that Apple is not blocking Damien, but we are talking here about A+ Direct Mode thread... so we talked about that fact. Many softwares are blocked now from Apple security things not just in Music... First come to mind for me at the time was Parallels Desktop in High Sierra... then i switched to VMware Fusion, next Apple update will be just 64bits softwares allowed now

Jud · May 6, 2018

10 hours ago, diecaster said:

No, Apple does not. You don’t seem to understand the fundamental change Apple made. No one can write code that accesses the audio interface the way Audirvana did with “direct mode”.

You our make it sound like Apple chose to block a Damien specifically. That’s not how it works.

I'm ready to learn different, but I've just checked a few manufacturer's sites and they contain instructions about how to enable their drivers with High Sierra for hardware not using Apple's driver. So it does appear that Apple allows the use of some USB audio drivers with High Sierra, and of course these drivers must interact with the kernel.

Certainly Damien wasn't singled out by Apple. He is simply in the same boat as any other developer whose driver hasn't been authorized for use with High Sierra.

diecaster · May 6, 2018

40 minutes ago, Jud said:

I'm ready to learn different....

Audirvana was bypassing Apple Core Audio API. The Core Audio API is the only Apple wants developers to access audio in macOS. Apple was quite clear about that going way back. Apple made a change in MacOS X Sierra that blocked what Audirvana was doing.

No audio drivers out there today are bypassing the Core Audio API. Apple is never going to change this so Audirvana is never getting "Direct Mode" back. If all it took was a signed driver, you can bet that Damien would have taken care of this a very long time ago.

Oh, "Exclusive Mode" is available through the Core Audio API...

Jud · May 6, 2018

15 hours ago, diecaster said:

Audirvana was bypassing Apple Core Audio API. The Core Audio API is the only Apple wants developers to access audio in macOS. Apple was quite clear about that going way back. Apple made a change in MacOS X Sierra that blocked what Audirvana was doing.

No audio drivers out there today are bypassing the Core Audio API. Apple is never going to change this so Audirvana is never getting "Direct Mode" back. If all it took was a signed driver, you can bet that Damien would have taken care of this a very long time ago.

Oh, "Exclusive Mode" is available through the Core Audio API...

Thanks. Drivers must still be given elevated permissions if you look at the installation instructions, so I wonder whether all accesses are through Core Audio.

Regarding why one might want to bypass Core Audio, I ran across this: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/48046011/macos-high-sierra-edit-kext

diecaster · May 6, 2018

Except that you cannot bypass Core Audio now which is why Audirvana will never be able to use "Direct Mode" ever again.

Yes, all access is through Core Audio:

https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/MusicAudio/Conceptual/CoreAudioOverview/Introduction/Introduction.html

Again, it has nothing to do with "elevated permissions". One more time: Apple requires going through Core Audio which is why Audirvana's "Direct Mode" broke.

greentrumpet · May 6, 2018

I tried the patch, wasn't confident as I'm not confident playing with Macs, it was an utter disaster and took days to undo. Wouldn't have been necessary but my old Mac failed and new ones won't accept El Capitan or earlier ( I tried).

I e-mailed Apple as suggested, didn't even get the courtesy of a reply.

routlaw · May 6, 2018

Is it an absolute certainty that Direct Mode via A+ as in the past is actually superior sounding to Core Audio? Perhaps an easier question would be what is wrong with Core Audio at least in this context?

rodrigaj · May 7, 2018

This is a curiosity.

When using Tidal within A+ 3.2.7 i like to use the desktop Tidal application on my iMac for searching and creating both "Favorites" and "Playlists" in My Music.

The curious thing is that the "Favorites" update in the A+ window as expected, but the "Playlists" do not.

I have to quit A+ and restart it in order to see the Tidal "Playlists" that have been added.

Am I missing something?

buonassi · May 7, 2018

4 minutes ago, rodrigaj said:

I have to quit A+ and restart it in order to see the Tidal "Playlists" that have been added.

that's they way it's always been for me too.

RunHomeSlow · May 7, 2018

4 hours ago, greentrumpet said:

I tried the patch, wasn't confident as I'm not confident playing with Macs, it was an utter disaster and took days to undo. Wouldn't have been necessary but my old Mac failed and new ones won't accept El Capitan or earlier ( I tried).

I e-mailed Apple as suggested, didn't even get the courtesy of a reply.

If you were with El Capitan you didn't need the patch!! ? it is only for Sierra or High Sierra

you surely not read the text from the file i've made available that for most people who have tried it,

they succeed for patching the .ktext because it clearly said:

IF YOU DON’T KNOW HOW TO READ OR IN A HURRY, FORGET THIS.
HAVING A BACKUP IS NOT JUST COPYING SYSTEM FILES…
REAL BACKUP IS A FULL WORKING SYSTEM THAT YOU CAN BOOT FROM…

then if you do something wrong, you do a 30 minutes restore and your back like you were...

RunHomeSlow · May 7, 2018

2 hours ago, routlaw said:

Is it an absolute certainty that Direct Mode via A+ as in the past is actually superior sounding to Core Audio? Perhaps an easier question would be what is wrong with Core Audio at least in this context?

For some people it is a must have, it make a big change for them on their system, for some it is minor, it is surely depending on your DAC and system wise for a difference. You might found nothing change for you. I'm on 10.13.4 now, and i didn't do the change for it to be enable again... i don't really found a significant change for my ears and running my DAC... and like some users here said, it is dead for now and will be dead for the next system so... just think it never exist and it doesn't exist since Sierra and High Sierra, and enjoy your sound like me but if i want to make it Direct Mode again enable, i'll use the patch that is still working

buonassi · May 7, 2018

On 5/2/2018 at 12:28 AM, buonassi said:

dropouts ensue from time to time even when playing from RAM and no intensive processing is happening. Maybe it's a ram leak? who knows.

I may have found the culprit. I have an ifi nano iusb3.0 between Mac and DAC. Plugging straight into the DAC from computer seems to resolve the issue. I played an entire album at dsd128 with no dropouts.

I'm not saying it was the nano iusb , rather I have to spend more time troubleshooting.

Another possibility is the audioquest forest USB cable between the iusb and DAC. I'm seeing if simply using the supplied ifi USB 3.0 cable will remedy this. Between Mac and iusb I use a standard usb2.0 compliant cable, so this shouldn't be an issue. However I've heard that audiophile USB cables can be finnicky. Especially on the power delivery. It's possible that my DAC was underpowered by the AQ forest cable, as it was designed for transmission only (guess).

Will report back.

buonassi · May 7, 2018

3 hours ago, buonassi said:

Another possibility is the audioquest forest USB cable between the iusb and DAC. I'm seeing if simply using the supplied ifi USB 3.0 cable will remedy this.

been through 2 entire albums now. no drops. seems the AudioQuest cable was the culprit here. With iFi's included USB3.0 cable that came with the iUSB3.0 nano, the DAC is working just fine. So the issue was not with A+ I'm happy to report!

greentrumpet · May 7, 2018

12 hours ago, RunHomeSlow said:

If you were with El Capitan you didn't need the patch!! ? it is only for Sierra or High Sierra

you surely not read the text from the file i've made available that for most people who have tried it,

they succeed for patching the .ktext because it clearly said:

IF YOU DON’T KNOW HOW TO READ OR IN A HURRY, FORGET THIS.
HAVING A BACKUP IS NOT JUST COPYING SYSTEM FILES…
REAL BACKUP IS A FULL WORKING SYSTEM THAT YOU CAN BOOT FROM…

then if you do something wrong, you do a 30 minutes restore and your back like you were...

Please re-read

My old Mac failed.

The new one won't accept El Capitan therefore I tried the fix.

You kindly entered into a fairly long exchange to help me with the patch but it was still a disaster for me, fortunately I was able to completely wipe my MBP and re-install Sierra ( good job I tried the kext with High Sierra as I was able to go back the the OS my MBP was shipped with) then use a backup to retrieve my data.

As you may recall you acknowledged part of your patch assumed the existence of a file that I didn't have.

RunHomeSlow · May 7, 2018

24 minutes ago, greentrumpet said:

Please re-read

My old Mac failed.

The new one won't accept El Capitan therefore I tried the fix.

You kindly entered into a fairly long exchange to help me with the patch but it was still a disaster for me, fortunately I was able to completely wipe my MBP and re-install Sierra ( good job I tried the kext with High Sierra as I was able to go back the the OS my MBP was shipped with) then use a backup to retrieve my data.

As you may recall you acknowledged part of your patch assumed the existence of a file that I didn't have.

I think you need to completely erase your hard drive and then boot with an installer of El Capitan to make it work.

Glad you are back to listen to music and forget that Direct Mode existed

jimdukey · May 7, 2018

Since this situation with Sierra and High Sierra, I feel that A+ is now

compromised, and can never sound its best without Direct Mode.

Can anyone quantify how much better it would be with Direct Mode?

I like upsampling, and usually use HQ these days.

I tried adjusting some of A+ parameters, but now I'm not sure where the default setting is.

I always used it in stock form, never changed any of the sliders.

My overall impression is that HQ is more vivid, A+ more bland,

but what bothers is that part of A+ isn't available to me, and I'm just NOT qualified to do the Patch.

In fact, I'm very unhappy that A+ isn't what it was or could be anymore,

unless you are a Computer Expert.

I'm not.

RunHomeSlow · May 7, 2018

29 minutes ago, jimdukey said:

Since this situation with Sierra and High Sierra, I feel that A+ is now

compromised, and can never sound its best without Direct Mode.

Can anyone quantify how much better it would be with Direct Mode?

I like upsampling, and usually use HQ these days.

I tried adjusting some of A+ parameters, but now I'm not sure where the default setting is.

I always used it in stock form, never changed any of the sliders.

My overall impression is that HQ is more vivid, A+ more bland,

but what bothers is that part of A+ isn't available to me, and I'm just NOT qualified to do the Patch.

In fact, I'm very unhappy that A+ isn't what it was or could be anymore,

unless you are a Computer Expert.

I'm not.

.005% better

just move the main slider quality to fastest then to best and it will be back like default.

RunHomeSlow · May 7, 2018

If you look at page 37 of the manual, Damien put a different settings for Izotope now, you can try this one too...

Audirvana Plus 3 (official thread)

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