A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Gavin1977]

Great find - do you have a NUC to compare against?

 

Asrock iBOX-V1000 doesn’t say ECC compliant on their spec sheet, nor can I see PCIe slot... had ASRock said these things can be done or are you going to mod the chassis?

 

[Gavin1977]

1 hour ago, Energy said:

I have a NUC7i7DNHE to compare to. Since the Intel NUC doesn't support ECC, I'll use a non-ECC HyperX CL14 when comparing the two endpoints. This way sound quality during A/B test is all endpoint related and not linked to RAM quality.

 

Asrock iBOX-V1000 supports ECC since it's APU (V1605B) processor support it within it's memory controller.

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/ryzen_embedded/v1605b

 

 

UDOO BOLT V8 has the same APU (V1605B) as the Asrock iBOX-V1000.

 

Many of these small form factors Mini PC's won't have a PCI-E slot since the cases are too slim to allow a PCI-E card to be vertically mounted. If a case had a space for horizontal mounting, a PCI-E to PCI-E riser cable is required for the liftoff distance. So there is no difference in using a riser cable or a M.2 KEY M (2242/2260/2280) to PCI-E converter cable, since a cable is still needed. M.2. and PCI-E operate at PCI-E X4 so they are compatible.

 

 

In order to accommodate the JCAT USB Card, I will have to CNC an opening for the USB output and DC input, then drill two holes for a bolt and nut to hold the internal bracket in place. It should be fairly simple yet still a tedious process.

 

The real question is whether using a cable will rid some of the benefits of having the card since the length of the cable now becomes susceptible to EMI/RFI which when added together with length can add jitter. Proper actions should be taken such as reducing the length of the cable by cutting and re-soldering, shielding wires that have voltage running through them so they don't affect the data wires that are running parallel to them, and using a shield that goes around the whole cable to further protect the data wires. Additional methods can be added for so called "better" performance such as using UP-OCC solid core or stranded LITZ wire instead of the ribbon cable that the converter cable comes with, heat-shrinking each wire in neoprene heatshrink for low tribolectric effect, adding space between conductor and shielding to reduce capacitance and electrical absorption (neoprene does this), using copper foil instead of aluminum foil for better shielding properties, and applying Stabilant 22 to all contact points before pushing them into their respected slots.

Excellent - just the sort of experiment I would be interested in!

 

I look forward to the results as I've also got the DNHE NUC (Powered by SR7 in my case) and see your experiment as the next step.  You can always externally mount the JCAT card for testing to see if it's worth modifying the case.  Interested in your indication that JCAT Femto followed by SOtM tX-USBultra is worthwhile - how much improvement over just a single JCAT or SOtM tX-USBultra?  If you had just one which one would you purchase?

[Gavin1977]

On 10/20/2019 at 5:48 AM, bobfa said:

My Musical Summer of Fun

Three system changes that improved my sound quality!

 

 

Over the the summer I have been working to try to improve and simplify my main system.  While the Kii Three System is simple, the digital chain running it was NOT.

 

I have been operating a two box solution with a server in the basement and an endpoint in the cabinet converting to USB for the Kii Control.  I have almost always had an ISORegen in the USB chain with a GHENT JSSG360 USB cable to the endpoint and a USBPC to the Kii Control.

 

I run Euphony OS on my Xeon Server.  Over the summer the team at Audiokernel released a new version of their software that runs the core OS components in RAM.  I participated in the beta and I am now on the production version.   This new version made a very large improvement in sound quality in my server.

 

Euphony can run a couple of different software packages.  The two I am concentrating on are Roon plus Stylus-EP and Stylus.  My son and I  had a long listening session a few days ago swapping back and forth between the two systems they are pretty close.  I think that Stylus does have sound quality edge sometimes but Roon just kills it on the UI/UX.  It is great to have them both a few clicks away!

 

With the new software I decided to try running the server as a single box with USB out.  I ran A/B/C testing with the two endpoints I had been using and the single box.  The single box won out buy quite a bit.  So now the server is in the cabinet with its HDPXEX 400 supply.

 

The other area I wanted to improve is the USB Chain so I purchased a modified txUSBultra from Audio Sensibility in Canada and it has been in the system for just about two weeks.  It is powered by an LPS1.2 from a rail on the HDPLEX 400.   I am using a Ghent JSSG360 USB cable between the server and the txUSBultra and a Lush^2 (TANF settings) on the output to the Kii Control. This change improved the detail added some bass extension and took away some more of that digital harshness.  Listening again today things continue to improve.  Time will tell how much better it will get.

 

 

The third change has been VERY interesting.  I have tested with different kinds of networking between the various boxes in the system.  My main network switch has SFP interfaces on it and I have done a lot of listening using fibre-optic networking vs copper.  I have found that fibre worked for me.  I had been running a fibre from the switch to the server bridged and then another fibre from the server to the endpoint.  That took three FMC devices that I had to power.  The bridged ethernet on the server made a difference but I was not happy with all of the extras needed.

 

When I moved the server to direct connect USB I decided to research FMC devices and the like.  I missed out on the first order for the UpTone EtherRegen.  I thought about SoTM switches, and others.  What I landed on was the Sonore opticalModule that  I put it in the system this week!  It is powered by a 5V rail from the HDPLEX400 and is connected to the server with a GHENT JSSG360 Ethernet cable.  The fibre goes from there to the network switch.  Note that my music is stored on a QNAP NAS in the basement network “area”.

 

The difference that the opticalModule makes is almost stunning.  I can only guess that the generic FMC was throwing a lot of junk into the server.   There is more of everything.  Sound stage, bass extension and control.  Musical detail is improved.

 

 NOTE:  I CHANGED TWO THINGS AT ONCE!  I am not a patient person so the USB and network stuff changed at almost the same time!

 

 

So in summary:  My Summer of Fun With Stereo yielded some great results!

 

1. Euphony SW upgrade that eliminated the need for a D to D
2. SoTM txUSBultra
3. Sonore opticalModule

 

There is more to do. I am  upgrading the AC power cabling to the system next.  After that:

• I have to see if my Element H USB card makes any difference.
• I am in on the order for some Apacer ECC DRAM.    
• I am looking at different Xeon processor that has six or eight cores.
• I have not tried doing anything with process allocation on the server.
• I need to upgrade the ATX wiring from the power supply to the server.

 

There is a new version of AudioLinux coming out soon.  Who knows???

 

In summary this is still ugly, there are too many wires, the H5 case is too big.  I have not addressed the turntable side of things well enough yet. More to simplify! 

 

It was a good summer and I am happy, the system sounds quite a bit better and I had fun getting here.  Not bad for one summer project.

 

 

Hi Bob - Any feedback on your findings of the Element H USB card, and comparisions with SoTM txUSBultra?

[Gavin1977]

Just for reference the Apacer 75 P/N offers a fixed BOM and Ext Temperature (-40/+85*c).  For Apacers non-commercial offerings (e.g such as NOX) the BOM (Including ICs) can change without notice.  So it would be difficult to get the same performance from different modules or manufacturer.

[Gavin1977]

21 minutes ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

Have to admit, I ended up dropping my i7 nuc (the chosen one) with Apacer RAM, BIOS tuned, Farad 19v, Audio-Linux etc ... for an OpticalRendu.  Managed to obtain a broken in 7v Farad to do a comparison.    HQPlayer + NAA setup @ DSD512.

 

Was quite suprised if I'm honest, wasnt expecting the ARM based system to do so well, but it seems getting clean data to the SoC of choice is vitally important.  Chassis could be bigger IMHO, gets a little toasty.

 

Also switched from Startech FMCs to the OpticalModule units from Sonore.  Tried OpticalRendu with Startech FMC alone (powered by good DC power) before switching and after, again clear marked improvement. 

 

Main difference is a big uptick in dynamics, and transient resolution.

 

Next steps will be to try and obtain a OpticalModule OEM DIY card to feed it directly from the host server, cutting out any Ethernet to Fibre conversion stages + associated clocks, as well as awaiting Ghent GAC4-1 DC cable for the Farad (currently using level 1 30cm).

Interesting - anyone else experienced this compared to NUC? 

 

I would be interested on thoughts about locally bridging a NUC (operating as HQPlayer Server) to the OpticalRendu.

[Gavin1977]

@jean-michel6 What is the percieved benefit split between etheregen / eRED-DOCK in your system?  Which one would you buy first?

[Gavin1977]

4 hours ago, jean-michel6 said:

Very difficult question to answer . Both the etherregen and the engineered are excellent products which raise significantly the SQ of digital audio . 

To answer your question it depends on what is your system today . you can PM me if you wish 

I think you’ve answered my question... they both have a significant impact.

 

I also agree with the other experiences shared here.  By what I remember from my comparisons is that a NUC with Audiolinux and a linear power supply, sounds pretty similar to a Shanti powered Allo USBSig, running Moode.  However it is definitely second place to a linear powered NUC running Euphony - and another quite significant gap when you add in a Tx-USBUltra.  Perhaps I shouldn’t have been so surprised, given the technical underpinnings if the Tx-USBUltra, but I’d only heard minimal benefits with USB ‘decrapifiers’ before.  Tx-USB ultra is amazing - so I can only imagine what the combination of Etherregen and eRED-DOCK can do.  I’ve asked to be added to the reservation list.

 

I still have both systems, I really do like the Allo USBSig - fantastic value for money and a great purchase for a lower/mid value system.  I haven’t tried the USBSig with the tx-USBUltra (Bobba reported minimal benefits) - but it’s something I’d like to try.  
 

I also really liked the Moode software, and want to try gentoo player on both the USBSig and the NUC.  Gentoo’s interface / approach looks very similar to Audiolinux, yet Gentoo is free.

[Gavin1977]

1 hour ago, Middy said:

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/passmark-inline-psu-tester/3.html

 

This any good for some people ? Just popped up on my google feed.

 

Pro tool not cheap...

 

Or this...

DIGIFLEX ATX Power Supply Tester

Amazon £8

 

DIGIFLEX ATX Power Supply Tester 20 24 Pin SATA LCD Diagnose PSU https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004IO5CT8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_vijkEbACTB7PM

I've stopped testing standard ATX SMPS now (for servers at least, I still use Hypex for amplifiers). I've listened to Corsair SFX450,  Superflower leadex III, and Corsair AX1600i.  The AX1600i was really quite interesting as it has really low ripple, good transient response and Gallium Nitride (GaN) transistors like some new high end class-d amplifiers.

 

To me, servers powered by these all sounded pretty similar and somewhat rolled off in highs compared to a good quality linear power supply.  I never went to the extent of using custom ATX cables, this might have made the difference.  But for me, it's just easier/cheaper/simpler to get a better sound by going down the lower power route, such as a NUC.  Looking forward to trying eRED-DOCK.

[Gavin1977]

11 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Nenon

 

I’m really looking forward to you testing the Asus WSC621E Sage with to CPU’s. 

 

Early stage questions? 
 

- Are the two CPU’s powered independently? E.g. could be powered by 2 x Sean Jacobs 5a LPS? 
- With 2 CPU’s does this mean it can run two operating systems at one time? E.g. can run Stylus on one & run Stylus EP on another? Effectively having a server & endpoint in one box? 
- With so many cores/threads realistically it can isolate most if not all Euphony processes? 
- the other question is? Why does the T Extreme have so much RAM? Presumably the RAM can be isolated like RAM when using windows? If so maybe this can be future Euphony development. 
 

I was planning upgrading my MB & CPU (intel i9), I’m now going to hold off! 
 

keep up the great work mate. 
 

p.s. please create a new thread “Building DIY Server 2” highly anticipated indeed! 

Some earlier thoughts here that might help answer these questions...

 

 

 

[Gavin1977]

Short feedback on my recent experiences:

 

Gentoo Player

IMO Gentoo Player sounds better than Euphony.  I posted my findings on the Gentoo thread, but thought it might be of interest to people here as well as it has received some coverage, but not widely known.  Listening so far shows that the sonic signature is similar to Euphony, but the music has greater relief (reduced background processes, and lower noise floor perhaps?) vocals are also lovely and seem to have more presence and resolution.  Euphony is perhaps a bit more laid back and smoother sounding, but I think that is because it is not able to offer up as much detail retrieval. Gentoo Player uses a Real Time (RT) Kernal of linux that I think was orignally intended for use in AI and robotic automation - I think this might be the magic sauce?  Either way it's very interesting/impressive.  Testing was done on DNHE NUC, Paul Hynes SR7, Etherregen.  Both copies of software (Gentoo Player and Euphony) where run from USB.  I used the headless UEFI version of Gentoo Player for the comparision, the version with the xfce GUI also worked fine too.

 

I really disliked Audiolinux, mainly because I found it to be an absolute pain to set up as I had to constantly hunt out issues and implement workarounds in terminal.  I had a similar experience with Gentoo Player to start with, as I tried setting it up using terminal only (following what I understood from using Audiolinux).  Wasn’t great. However, use the web interface and it’s an absolute dream!  So easy and everything works spot on.  So make sure you use the web interface, Gentoo Player is then highly recommended.

 

I also thought that the audio benefits of Audiolinux were only moderate.  Audiolinux sounds similar to what direct playback from a NUC loaded with Roon Rock to me, nowhere near what Euphony achieves.  Not the case with GentooPlayer.  It’s in the same league as Euphony, and my experience so far is that it’s probably the slightly better sounding too...and it’s free!

 

Etherregen and Sotm txUSBultra

 

I had a nice uptick in sound quality using the txUSBultra in the chain between my NUC which I used Euphony to stream Tidal to my DAC (which was a Naim V1, but now upgraded to Hugo 2).

 

Very interesting that after adding the Etherregen I found that the txUSBUltra no longer had much appreciable benefit, it certainly wasn't detrimental to the sound, but perhaps it could be stated that the sound stage / reverb perhaps collapsed a little.  I sold my txUSBultra.  Perhaps this is just a simple case of it being better to provide a clean source to a server to start with, rather than trying to clean up any issues further down the chain.  Etherregen is a very good product.  Anyone else tried this combination?

 

Anyhow, my next audio adventure will be with Chord 2go + Etheregen - the 2go will hopefully be arriving in the next few days.  This comparison is inspired by the eRed-Dock and Etherregen postings on this thread (I nearly bought eRed-Dock, but then thought I could try the new Chord 2go in a similar config instead).

 

I all also be comparing this with an optimised Gentoo Player i.e. migrated onto Optaine drive and RAM booted.

[Gavin1977]

11 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

What were you using to power the tX-USBultra before you sold it?

Good question - I have used both the provided wall wart and a spare 9v rail from my SR7.  Other peoples experience may differ, but I couldn't personally hear much difference with either senario.  To my ears (prior to deploying the EtherRegen), providing an SR7 rail to the NUC provided a good uplift, to the tx-USBultra I'm not so sure (but adding the hardware in the chain did make a noticable difference).  YMMV.

 

Based on this, my feedback in post #15908 was based on stock power supply to both Etherregen and tx-USBultra, plus SR7 to NUC only - namely because I couldn't hear an appreciable difference with tx-USBultra being powered by linear or not.  Etheregen is stated not to really benefit from a linear power supply, and equally I don't have a 5v linear to hand so this was not tested.  I did a number of switch outs - Etherregen only, tx-USBultra only and of course Etherregen + tx-USBultra.  I had a noticable preference towards just Etherregen in the chain only and excluding the tx-USBultra.

 

I was partly trying to evaluate what an upgrade path from NUC/SR7/Etherregen/tx-USBultra combination might sound compared to Etherregen/eRED-dock.  I don't have an eRED-dock, but it has given me a flavour of what might be expected.  I think @jean-michel6 might be onto something as per his post.

 

As I say, my next test, in a similar vein, will be Etherregen plus Chord 2go.  I just hope the 2go delivers and it keeps the dynamics of the SR7 powered NUC.  I did try Allo USBsignature (with and without Shanti), sounded good, but lacked dynamics IMO compared to SR7/NUC and was a definite step behind this combination.  So far I have a preference towards higher powered CPUs fed with very clean power as opposed to low power raspberry Pi's etc... which links in with some earlier discussions.

 

[Gavin1977]

On 3/4/2020 at 9:05 AM, jean-michel6 said:

I do understand... i have also toddlers but they are my grandchildren. Therefore I have some time and hopefully some cash 🙂

Foreword : if I advertise about this ered dock it is not to brag about my findings but really helping the community discover a product that deserves recognition . Contrary to the high end community this engineered company is having decent prices when you consider the hardware and human ware they have invested in their products.

 

It is really as simple as going from the nuc then to the switch then to the ered dock .

I don’t know if euphony can send music to upnp/dlna endpoint i will ask them .

I am using daphile , it is really easy to use , sound quality is very good with this software and it is free !

 

You need some knowledge to run daphile but it is not very difficult and there is instructions on daphile web site .

See my post above.  Also, try Gentoo Player - it does uPNP out.  Hopefully we can both support the same line of enquiry and bring further progress to the group.

[Gavin1977]

Interesting findings - do you have a tx-USBultra to test with your opticalRendu?  I do wonder if this would also show little benefit from USB cleaning/reclocking.  I think the review of Allo USB signature also reported little benefit for adding it in (USB output must have been pretty clean).

[Gavin1977]

Does anyone else have experience they can share in comparing the Sonore opticalRendu with other streamers?  I can find reviews, but not comparisions.

 

I would imagine that the eRED-dock would be similar in performance (but it's limited to uPNP).  I'm interested in filling in the percieved gap with the products other preople have found that lie between the opticalRendu and the ultra highend Pink Faun and Taiko Audio Extreme.  Both of which are way out of my price range 🙂

 

 

[Gavin1977]

14 hours ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

 

You'd have to compare their Signature Optical range, ideally with tier ii (+ turbo PSU) - which uses the same opticalRendu PCB.  I tried to get ahold of one in the UK, but its a real struggle hence went for the oR and will recase and apply a heatsink to it's SoC.  Lots of reviews, though.

 

Edit: opticalRendu PCB is the same in all Signature SE Optical ranges, its the modifications (fuse, EMI shielding and Turbo PSU) that differentiates it.  These days they simply have 1 offering (thankfully).

Thanks - nobody holds stock in the UK unfortunately as they're all custom made to order.  So no means for me to compare.

 

Agreed that PF and Taiko are server/streamer, and I'm looking at endpoints - whilst an endpoint makes most sense for me (as I almost excusively use Tidal) I'm just following the eternal quest of 'what sounds best' for my given needs, budget  and learning on the way 🙂 

[Gavin1977]

Anyone else powered their DSL router using a linear power supply?  I am also wondering what effect it might have if it's so far downstream...  

[Gavin1977]

On 4/21/2020 at 8:01 AM, austinpop said:

This reinforces to me that systems with more powerful CPUs, with more cores, and bigger caches DO sound better, EVEN though the CPU utilization with the non-upsampling workloads of Stylus or Roon is vanishingly small. The challenge with such systems of course, as Nenon is detailing in his excellent DIY server thread, is getting a power supply that is both outstanding quality AND high-current.

 

Glad you highlighted this point as it's something I've been interested in for a while... the logic behind higher core speed and larger cache I get.  But the technical reason for going for a huge number of cores aludes me as Euphony or Gentoo Player would never use that many cores.

 

I would also like to hear feedback on sound differences between a single many core processor such as a Xeon or Epyc, vs the dual processor setup with Nenon is building.

[Gavin1977]

Shame Mundorf stopped making these MPower supplies back in 2013... 30A of continuous low noise power.  Could build some seriously high powered servers with these.

 

I have no idea of their specs (ripple, noise floor, transient response etc....).  You will see that it uses a Mundorf HeadCap (I believe) - I was wondering if these could be added to ATX power rails to smooth the current...

 

 

 

 

 

[Gavin1977]

Indeed - fans are bad.  I have no idea if they only ramp up under higher loads in this MPower.

 

ATX power supplies sound rolled off in the treble to me.  I don’t know exactly what causes this, but I was wondering if really tight voltage regulation is the answer, which additional caps or a Mundorf HeadCap could help with...

 

Agreed on Acopian I’ve not progressed with these for that reason.

[Gavin1977]

19 minutes ago, mozes said:

Check out these guys. Made in the US and have LPSs up to 57 amps continuous.

https://www.astroncorp.com/linear-desktop

Anyone used one though?

[Gavin1977]

On 5/6/2020 at 7:35 PM, ASRMichael said:

Sad day....Clumsy is an understatement! Putting last touches to my new build & then this happened!!    
 

Snapped a capacitor off my Pink Faun Ultra USB card! 😢😢😢😢

 

The joys of DIY! NOT! 

 

This method might work for you, or hot air soldering gun

 

https://github.com/iancanada/DocumentDownload/blob/master/PowerSupply/ADM715X/SMDtutorial.md

[Gavin1977]

On 6/11/2020 at 4:56 PM, seeteeyou said:

 

 

---

 

 

Very interesting post on Dual CAT POE @seeteeyou - I enjoyed it.  It's quite old though.  So where is the current state of play, or is it worth bypassing this and going straight to a Sablon Ethernet - 2020 model which is one item you referenced in the link (and austinpop is using).

 

I also like the fact that it gives some reasoning as to why CAT8 cabling sounds better... so I might well use that with the TELEGARTNER MFP8 CAT.8.1 for longer runs.

[Gavin1977]

By the way, if others would like to gently/politely request a 12v version of this ultracap conditioner by Ian Canada on DIY Audio that'd be great.  He's just launched the 5v and 3.3v versions, so only the 12v version missing to have a great way of conditioning ATX power supplies.

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/327105-develop-ultra-capacitor-power-supply-lifepo4-battery-power-supply-post6216601.htm

 

Love his work.

[Gavin1977]

13 hours ago, bobfa said:

During the evolution of this thread there has been some interesting discussions on power supplies.  I am building a new server for my system and I found something interesting.  I have been using an HDPLEX 400 PS to run my Xeon server.  When I built out my AMD Ryzen 7300 board I have found that it might be a bit too much for the HDPLEX.  (still fussing with turning stuff off in the BIOS).  

 

During this shortage of parts from China, etc. I ended up with a really overkill PS for one of my systems and just for the fun of it, I put it on the server.  I do not want to comment a lot on this yet, but it is interesting.  This 1600w supply barely gets warm and in ECO mode I have not had the fan come on yet.  

 

 

Here is the test setup.  The big HDPLEX runs the Motherboard and the little HDPLEX runs the USB chain and the OpticalModule

 

I grabbed the EVGA supply and hooked it up just because!

 

Extended testing

 

 

So has anyone else taken one of this 80plus Platinum supplies and tried it???  I would love to compare notes.  

 

Bob

 

 

Nice test bench Bob - I have used the Corsair AX1600i (platinum), but to me it didn't sound as good as the smaller SFX PSU's from Corsair.  I am revisiting ATX SMPS because I now needing upsamplied DSD (Closed form, 1million tap) from HQ Player.  My knowledge of SMPS is pretty slim, but I do wonder if some of these smaller units sound better because there's more of a load on them, so increased duty cycle.  But perhaps this needs to be balanced with the resultant ripple and variances to line regulation.  I do wonder if a Corsair SF750 Platinum at say 16% load (still good ripple and line rejection at this output), sounds better than a v.lightly loaded Corsair AX1600i at 7.5% output driving the same notional 120w load.  It's an unexplored theory anyhow...

 

I don't have the AX1600i to hand anymore, and I also tried it using a different motherboard - however SF750 with a ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming, Intel i7 8086k and APacer WT Ram that I now have already sounds better to me than my previous DNHE NUC powered by a Paul Hynes SR7 (older model as Paul highlighted earlier in this thread).  I am awiating JCAT USB XE Card/linear power, which is makes this quite an impressive feat.

 

There are so many different permutations.  Most of this I'm experimenting with as a result of conversations with @guiltyboxswapper who has been very helpful and has moved the sound quality of my rig up a notch for me.

 

Could you provide further comment against HDPlex?

[Gavin1977]

10 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Arrived this morning via FedEx 😁

 

REVIEW!