My (very) mini review of the Singxer SU-1 DDC

[pkane2001]

7 hours ago, Dev said:

Has anyone found it useful to add a ISO Regen or a SoTm tx-usb in front of the SU-1 ? I am wondering if it would bring anything useful to the table.

 

Folks talk about ISO Regen as producing an amazing improvement. I can't comment, since I don't have one. I did do a few things with my setup to improve the USB connection:

 

1. I built my own USB cable that allows me to inject clean 5v power (I use a USB battery pack for this)

2. I use a USB to Ethernet bridge that provides galvanic isolation, USB signal regeneration (hub) and also lets me move my PC about 50ft away from my stereo, into another room, all for $60 and is powered by that battery pack.

 

I can't say that these changes produced a major step-up in sound quality, but it is convenient and I do hear a bit of an improvement.

[ted_b]

7 hours ago, Dev said:

Has anyone found it useful to add a ISO Regen or a SoTm tx-usb in front of the SU-1 ? I am wondering if it would bring anything useful to the table.

You;ll find many posts on the ISO Regen thread, including mine..where I wax poetic.   

[clipper]

9 hours ago, Dev said:

 

Has anyone found it useful to add a ISO Regen or a SoTm tx-usb in front of the SU-1 ? I am wondering if it would bring anything useful to the table.

 

In my system, the ISO Regen brings a very significant improvement in front of an SU-1.  In another system, it has the same significant effect in front of a Singxer F-1.  It is a big drop-off to listen to either system without the ISO Regen in the chain...  

[Duy Le]

My SU-1 has just modded by my friend. 

[elan120]

59 minutes ago, Duy Le said:

My SU-1 has just modded by my friend. 

Good job!  Can you share what is your listening impression after the mod?

[Duy Le]

9 minutes ago, elan120 said:

Good job!  Can you share what is your listening impression after the mod?

I mod following your recommendation except using 100 uF cap in power board because the different between 470 uf vs 100 uF is huge and I don't know what will happen. For digital board I use 100 uF and 330 uF caps together. The sound I received after modding is cleaner, deeper, more comfortable for long time listening. I also found the dynamic is better.

[Energy]

13 hours ago, Dev said:

Has anyone found it useful to add a ISO Regen or a SoTm tx-usb in front of the SU-1 ? I am wondering if it would bring anything useful to the table.

 

I have the ISO REGEN and using it with the included USPCB (90˚ rotated) adapter.

After having experienced this device in my system I can surely say that it would be a shame to not have it. I have tried the Intona Isolator once in the past along with iUSB 2.0 and iUSB3.0 (recently) and they don't come close to what this new device brings. Perhaps something that can compete is the iFi iGalvanic 3.0.

 

A clean USB signal and power entering the Singxer SU-1 helps the receiving chip and thus further improves noise levels (along a handful of other things). This ultimately helps with the final projected jitter count coming from the device. 

 

1 hour ago, Duy Le said:

I mod following your recommendation except using 100 uF cap in power board because the different between 470 uf vs 100 uF is huge and I don't know what will happen. For digital board I use 100 uF and 330 uF caps together. The sound I received after modding is cleaner, deeper, more comfortable for long time listening. I also found the dynamic is better.

 

It's good that you stuck with the default values and used Panasonic FR as it's more compact and telling from your pictures that you didn't run into spacing issues which is awesome. Also glad that you went with the 100µF 50V and 300µF 25V for the digital board alongside the Nichicon R7's. Great choice. Not much else to do now other than to enjoy the music. 

[LoryWiv]

9 hours ago, Energy said:

 

I have the ISO REGEN and using it with the included USPCB (90˚ rotated) adapter.

After having experienced this device in my system I can surely say that it would be a shame to not have it. I have tried the Intona Isolator once in the past along with iUSB 2.0 and iUSB3.0 (recently) and they don't come close to what this new device brings. Perhaps something that can compete is the iFi iGalvanic 3.0.

I am interested in the iFi iGalvanic 3.0  in front of the SU-1 as well, but I believe it's release is delayed. An advantage over ISO REGEN for me is the absence of needing mains power (too many wall connections as is) but of course until iGalvanic 3.0 hits the market and is tested in combination with the SU-1, any assessment and comparison with the ISO REGEN are purely speculative. I remain very interested, though. and if I take the plunge will report my findings.

[Duy Le]

10 hours ago, Energy said:

It's good that you stuck with the default values and used Panasonic FR as it's more compact and telling from your pictures that you didn't run into spacing issues which is awesome. Also glad that you went with the 100µF 50V and 300µF 25V for the digital board alongside the Nichicon R7's. Great choice. Not much else to do now other than to enjoy the music. 

@Energy @elan120 @scan80269: do you think if using R-core transformer can make the sound better? But I don't know how to implement.

[seeteeyou]

Using the iFi iGalvanic 3.0 by itself will be bus-powered and it's somewhat tricky to add external power, adding iUSB 3.0 micro in front of iGalvanic 3.0 would require 9V while a single LPS-1 could only provide up to 7V.

 

If the clock and other components inside iGalvanic 3.0 weren't getting clean power from the USB port, I wonder if that were still any good when compared to the $655 ISO REGEN and LPS-1 combo?

[elan120]

1 hour ago, Duy Le said:

@Energy @elan120 @scan80269: do you think if using R-core transformer can make the sound better? But I don't know how to implement.

Making further modifications to SU-1 at this point will likely need much more efforts than component change out.  To replace the stock transformer with R-core will require a different way of mounting the transformer physically plus routing all the physical wires, and the possible improvements could be much smaller then all your existing modifications.  There are always things you can work on when it comes to modification, for example, the bridge rectifier can be the next target since there are better ones available but somewhat challenging to install them in current location, the two Crystek oscillators on the output side can also be another area for improvement but to implement the change require much more effort, primarily due to physical size differences...etc., so the decision is really whether you want to go through much more effort for much smaller incremental improvements, or as mentioned by @Energy, just enjoy the music. 

[Energy]

3 hours ago, LoryWiv said:

I am interested in the iFi iGalvanic 3.0  in front of the SU-1 as well, but I believe it's release is delayed. An advantage over ISO REGEN for me is the absence of needing mains power (too many wall connections as is) but of course until iGalvanic 3.0 hits the market and is tested in combination with the SU-1, any assessment and comparison with the ISO REGEN are purely speculative. I remain very interested, though. and if I take the plunge will report my findings.

 

I think it would be a great asset for those who run direct USB since the galvanic isolation should also remove AC leakage currents.  It offers lower noise (0.5µV) using USB power at up to 1 amperes which is pretty good thanks to USB 3.0 containing more current. It will be interesting to see how it fairs. I was actually suppose to go for this device but it took too long to release thus why I took the plunge into into the ISO REGEN/LPS-1 bundle instead.

 

Do let me know how it turns out for you. 

Last time I checked it was suppose to be priced at $299 then I think it got increased to $349? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

2 hours ago, Duy Le said:

@Energy @elan120 @scan80269: do you think if using R-core transformer can make the sound better? But I don't know how to implement.

 

It would be better to build yourself a better linear power supply (like an AMB σ11) than to do little modifications on the stock power supply. I have heard of R-Core but I am not too knowledgeable on why it would be better for this purpose. As long as you get your secondary output from the transformer at a good enough efficiency, not much to do. R-Core might be more important for power supply design in DAC, Headphone Amps, or Mono-Block Power Amplification.

 

I agree with everything about @elan120's reply.

At this point you're adding in a lot of difficulty for what might end up not offering any sonic benefits at all. Or you may even end up hearing things out of placebo just to justify all the hard work you put into it. Other than the power supply regulator, regulator for the digital board, and optimizing that regulator, there isn't much else. If you have the time and money, it would be best putting it into savings for an LPS-1.

 

1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

Using the iFi iGalvanic 3.0 by itself will be bus-powered and it's somewhat tricky to add external power, adding iUSB 3.0 micro in front of iGalvanic 3.0 would require 9V while a single LPS-1 could only provide up to 7V.

 

If the clock and other components inside iGalvanic 3.0 weren't getting clean power from the USB port, I wonder if that were still any good when compared to the $655 ISO REGEN and LPS-1 combo?

 

No point in adding iUSB 3.0 Micro as the iGalvanic is pretty much the iUSB 3.0 Nano but with galvanic isolation. There's no point in reclocking just to gain a measly 0.4µV of lower noise. The added chain of devices might be more against what you end up trying to improve.

 

At this point it's hard to tell which is better. Both UpTone and  iFi Audio has their own type of USB reconditioning for awhile now. These new products each have their own line of improvements. UpTone sourcing outside power with the ISO REGEN and iFi Audio doing it all bus powered but uses fancy active noise cancelation. UpTone's device is slightly above 4µV in noise whereas iFi's is 0.5µV but noise isn't everything. Just like how the SU-1 being powered by the lower noise iPower still doesn't sound as good as being powered by the slightly higher noise LPS-1. Design is everything.

[Duy Le]

Yes, I know it is easier and maybe better to buy the good external LPS at around 80$. When I translate and introduce SU-1 mod to Vietnamese, I also notice that modding digital board is the best p/p solution. I am also waiting for iGalvanic 3.0 but there is nothing new in internet. From the first time I listen after modding, I feel contented with the sound.

[seeteeyou]

32 minutes ago, Energy said:

 

No point in adding iUSB 3.0 Micro as the iGalvanic is pretty much the iUSB 3.0 Nano but with galvanic isolation.

 

Thanks, I didn't know that you're even more knowledgeable than the manufacturer:

 

 

[Superdad]

52 minutes ago, Energy said:

 

I think it would be a great asset for those who run direct USB since the galvanic isolation should also remove AC leakage currents.  It offers lower noise (0.5µV) using USB power at up to 1 amperes which is pretty good thanks to USB 3.0 containing more current. It will be interesting to see how it fairs. I was actually suppose to go for this device but it took too long to release thus why I took the plunge into into the ISO REGEN/LPS-1 bundle instead.

 

Do let me know how it turns out for you. 

Last time I checked it was suppose to be priced at $299 then I think it got increased to $349? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

It would be better to build yourself a better linear power supply (like an AMB σ11) than to do little modifications on the stock power supply. I have heard of R-Core but I am not too knowledgeable on why it would be better for digital use. As long as you get your secondary output from the transformer at a good enough efficiency, not much to do. R-Core might be more important for power supply design in DAC, Headphone Amps, or Mono-Block Power Amplification. 

 

 

No point in adding iUSB 3.0 Micro as the iGalvanic is pretty much the iUSB 3.0 Nano but with galvanic isolation. There's no point in reclocking just to gain a measly 0.4µV of lower noise. The added chain of devices might be more against what you end up trying to improve.

 

At this point it's hard to tell which is better. Both UpTone and  iFi Audio has their own type of USB reconditioning for awhile now. These new products each have their own line of improvements. UpTone sourcing outside power with the ISO REGEN and iFi Audio doing it all bus powered but uses fancy active noise cancelation. UpTone's device is slightly above 4µV in noise whereas iFi's is 0.5µV but noise isn't everything. Just like how the SU-1 being powered by the lower noise iPower still doesn't sound as good as being powered by the slightly higher noise LPS-1. Design is everything.

 

Careful about trying to compare quoted noise figures my friend. 

 

As with jitter, expressing a single figure without considering frequency is not particularly telling.  

That said, the 5(!) ultra-ultra-low noise LT3042 regulators we use in the ISO REGEN (one on each side of the isolator, 2 for the hub chip, and one for the clock) are going to be hard to beat.  0.8μVRMS (10Hz to 100kHz), 2nV/√Hz spot noise at 10kHz, and a PSRR of 79dB at 1MHz.  Even if a discrete regulator circuit could equal that, it would take a lot of board space to create 5 separate zones of such--something that we found was important to the design.

 

Your reference to 4μV noise must be towards the 1 amp TI TPS7A4700 regulator we use to supply 5VBUS output to DACs that need it.  We feel that is plenty quiet enough for that task since the USB input board of the DAC will immediately be regulating that down to 3.3V and 1.1V--hopefully with a decent reg as well.

 

But you are correct, we consciously chose not to bus-power the downstream side of ISO REGEN because:

a) We wanted to give the option to start with a clean supply there;

b) We wanted to be able to provide full USB2.0 spec-max 500mV VBUS output (actually can do more as it's a 1A reg) without requiring the use of a USB 3.0 computer port and cable;

c) We did not want ANY DC-DC SWITCHING REGULATOR across the "moat" for powering all the critical "clean side" downstream circuits. It takes a lot of work to squelch the noise from those things and we preferred to put the money into the five LT3042s and the great Crystek CCHD-575 ultra low phase noise clock.

 

Of course the proof is in the pudding as they say.  Though I don't mean to imply you have pudding for ears. 

[Energy]

iFi Audio: 

"The whole repeater circuitry in the iGalvanic addresses all these issues. However, being a "nano" range device, things like power supplies, clocks etc. are not quite of the same high level as those in the iUSB micro. 
 
The iGalvanic nano is best considered a iUSB 3.0 nano with galvanic isolation added and operating without external power supply, something made possible by the galvanic isolation of the bus power.
 
The iUSB 3.0 micro remains our "flagship" USB repeater and can be upgraded to offer galvanic isolation by adding the iGalvanic 3.0."

 

(source: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/ifi-audio-igalvanic3-0-the-holy-grail-of-audio.839638/page-3)

 

If you've noticed, you can see that I've posted quite a good amount on the iGalvanic thread asking questions awhile back.

 

3 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Careful about trying to compare quoted noise figures my friend. 

 

As with jitter, expressing a single figure without considering frequency is not particularly telling.  

That said, the 5(!) ultra-ultra-low noise LT3042 regulators we use in the ISO REGEN (one on each side of the isolator, 2 for the hub chip, and one for the clock) are going to be hard to beat.  0.8μVRMS (10Hz to 100kHz), 2nV/√Hz spot noise at 10kHz, and a PSRR of 79dB at 1MHz.  Even if a discrete regulator circuit could equal that, it would take a lot of board space to create 5 separate zones of such--something that we found was important to the design.

 

Your reference to 4μV noise must be towards the 1 amp TI TPS7A4700 ref we use to supply 5VBUS output to DACs that need it.  We feel that is plenty quiet enough for that task since the USB input board of the DAC will immediately be regulating that down to 3.3V and 1.1V--hopefully with a decent ref as well.

 

But you are correct, we consciously chose not to bus-power the downstream side of ISO REGEN because:

a) We wanted to give the option to start with a clean supply there;

b) We wanted to be able to provide full USB2.0 spec-max 500mV VBUS output (actually can do more as it's a 1A reg) without requiring the use of a USB 3.0 computer port and cable;

c) We did not want ANY DC-DC SWITCHING REGULATOR across the "moat" for powering all the critical "clean side" downstream circuits. It takes a lot of work to squelch the noise from those things and we preferred to put the money into the five LT3042s and the great Crystek CCHD-575 ultra low phase noise clock.

 

Of course the proof is in the pudding as they say.  Though I don't mean to imply you have pudding for ears. 

 

Thanks for the comments Alex however I was just stating the listed output noise specification and how that doesn't matter as there is more to account and internal design is everything.

 

From your elaboration, it shows why.

[nick77]

Quote

@Energy @Ted

Guys can you confirm the Iso-Regen fits horizontal and still allows HDMI cable to fit SU-1? I dont care for the 90 degree look of the Iso-Regen.

[ted_b]

3 hours ago, nick77 said:

Guys can you confirm the Iso-Regen fits horizontal and still allows HDMI cable to fit SU-1? I dont care for the 90 degree look of the Iso-Regen.

Nope, mine does not.  I will post a pic once my Windows NAA pc is backed up to it and I use my second USPCB.

[seeteeyou]

Someone posted this picture back in May and that didn't look very encouraging for the I2S input

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31877-iso-regen-listening-impressions-kicked-off-with-some-measurements/#comment-666308

 

Maybe something like this could work if the length of the cable were reasonably short as an I2S cable?

 

[Energy]

Mine fits but you will need the HDMI cable to be bent downward, and even then only some HDMI cables will work. The right angle cable above can be one or an Apollo AV Lightning V2 can work also due to the thinning strain relief. I don't think a WireWorld would fit though due to the larger sized shell on it's connectors and stiffer cable.

[nick77]

40 minutes ago, Energy said:

Mine fits but you will need the HDMI cable to be bent downward, and even then only some HDMI cables will work. The right angle cable above can be one or an Apollo AV Lightning V2 can work also due to the thinning strain relief. I don't think a WireWorld would fit though due to the larger sized shell on it's connectors and stiffer cable.

Okay thanks, guess I better go 90. I am currently running the Apollo but dont consider it to be an end all. 

[Middy]

Just a HDMI article I found on am EMI email I get. Thought it might be interesting for some people..

 

https://interferencetechnology.com/hdmi-cables-emi/

[Energy]

90 degree doesn't look so bad (depending on your setup). It sits right on top of the surface that the SU-1 stands on.

 

I have said the same thing about the Lightning V2 and wanted to look into better performing cables and have experimented with WireWorld Ultraviolet 7 & Starlight 7 in 0.5M (as well as Supra and other brands) but to no avail. For I²S transmission as long as you have a thick enough guage, insulated by PE to reduce triboelectric dischange, double shielded, and flat in design to reduce crosstalk, that's really what matters. The Lightning V2 does what the WireWorld does but at a drastically cheaper price. If you find the pricier one to sound better, then cool. I personally did not thus reason why I kept the lower priced one.

[R1200CL]

11 hours ago, Energy said:

For I²S transmission as long as you have a thick enough guage, insulated by PE to reduce triboelectric dischange, double shielded, and flat in design to reduce crosstalk, that's really what matters.

 

Time to put Ghent Audio to work maybe ? ?

And add "the JSSG cable" ( John Swenson Shield Guidelines). 

[Energy]

56 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Time to put Ghent Audio to work maybe ? ?

And add "the JSSG cable" ( John Swenson Shield Guidelines). 

 

The Ghent Audio JSSG USB cable?