Overall Isolation - network, USB, and power

austinpop · October 12, 2016

Hey guys, OP here...

It looks like some of the discussion here has gone deep on either the USB isolation or the network isolation end. That is OK with me - far be it for me to try to curate things.

However, keep in mind there are a couple of existing threads on both USB (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/which-one-buy-uptone-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-regen-or-intona-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-isolator-26815/) and network optical isolation (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/optical-network-configurations-24641/), whereas this thread is for more end-to-end considerations.

So as long as you make a conscious choice to post where it makes the most sense, I am cool!

austinpop · October 12, 2016

On the topic of battery power supplies, are there any modest-cost items around which there is a consensus on CA?

Specifically, for:

Powering a TP-Link FMC?
- Low-cost LPS recommendation is Jameco 9V/0.5A. I'm using these, and I like them a lot.
- For BPS, any good recommendation? it can use a 5V/1A supply too.

[*]Replacing the USB 5V Vbus in general - say from Intona to RUR/Regen, or Regen/RUR to DAC?

[*]Powering a Regen or RUR? Typically 6-9V/1A.

I know the LPS-1 is the current darling, but at $295, it's hardly a modest-cost option.

I've been pointed to these 5V battery packs at various times:

Are these good for 1 and 2 above?

Also, some of these have 2 output ports, and ample mAh ratings. If I use them to power 2 things, am I breaking the primary tenet of isolation? Or is it only if I power 2 things that are on 2 sides of an isolation boundary? By isolation boundary, I mean an Intona or Alldaq (USB) and fiber on the network.

What about 6-9V/1A BPS for RUR/Regen?

YashN · October 12, 2016

Hey guys, OP here...

It looks like some of the discussion here has gone deep on either the USB isolation or the network isolation end. That is OK with me - far be it for me to try to curate things.

However, keep in mind there are a couple of existing threads on both USB (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/which-one-buy-uptone-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-regen-or-intona-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-isolator-26815/) and network optical isolation (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/optical-network-configurations-24641/), whereas this thread is for more end-to-end considerations.

Vibration isolation is also important.

ElviaCaprice · October 13, 2016

Thanks JS for such an informative post.

I went ahead and pulled the 5V pins/wire and GND wire from my Supra cable. Eliminated any continuation of shielding or metal wrapping on the data lines. Was easy to pull thru the 5V/Gnd wires since the power lines are intertwined and wrapped together. Then I soldered externally my Gnd wire to one lead/end and just lightly wrapped it around the other GND lead on the other end of the cable, so as to make handshake with Regen/Hugo. I don't notice any difference, in SQ, having this ground connected or pulled after handshake. The Intona is doing it's job of isolation on the GND. But do pull any 5V pins/wire from your usb cable will make a difference, along with breaking the shielding ground.

Wow, Made a nice difference in sound, lows/mids extremely clean. I'll have to do a little further optimization by adding the LPS-1 to my USB card and see if I can clean up some of that high end (very hard to detect) gleam from the highs that JS described as capable of passing thru the Intona.

davide256 · October 13, 2016

I'm not familiar with the Micro Rendu but it could also introduce a ground loop with non galvanic isolated power supply. Probably why JS recommends the LPS-1 and if done correctly, no need for the Intona.

microRendu has a Regen built in for its USB out.

fob69 · October 13, 2016

On the topic of battery power supplies, are there any modest-cost items around which there is a consensus on CA?

Specifically, for:

Powering a TP-Link FMC?

Low-cost LPS recommendation is Jameco 9V/0.5A. I'm using these, and I like them a lot.

For BPS, any good recommendation? it can use a 5V/1A supply too.

[*]Replacing the USB 5V Vbus in general - say from Intona to RUR/Regen, or Regen/RUR to DAC?

[*]Powering a Regen or RUR? Typically 6-9V/1A.

I know the LPS-1 is the current darling, but at $295, it's hardly a modest-cost option.

I've been pointed to these 5V battery packs at various times:

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/juiced-external-battery-charger

https://www.amazon.com/Anker-High-Capacity-16750mAh-Portable-External/dp/B00N2T7U90

Are these good for 1 and 2 above?

Also, some of these have 2 output ports, and ample mAh ratings. If I use them to power 2 things, am I breaking the primary tenet of isolation? Or is it only if I power 2 things that are on 2 sides of an isolation boundary? By isolation boundary, I mean an Intona or Alldaq (USB) and fiber on the network.

What about 6-9V/1A BPS for RUR/Regen?

I test three 5v pack for iPhone/ipad.

This one https://www.amazon.fr/TeckNet®-génération-Technologie-BLUETEKTM-compatible/dp/B00FAU7ZB2 that is close to the one you give one link, and an other recent one, give bad results (very digital sound), on my tplink and player. They are probably switch regulated, with a lot of noise.

I have a old and cheap 5V pack that seams not to be regulated at all, that give very good results, both on the tplink, and on my player.

Cornan · October 13, 2016

Thanks JS for such an informative post.
I went ahead and pulled the 5V pins/wire and GND wire from my Supra cable. Eliminated any continuation of shielding or metal wrapping on the data lines. Was easy to pull thru the 5V/Gnd wires since the power lines are intertwined and wrapped together. Then I soldered externally my Gnd wire to one lead/end and just lightly wrapped it around the other GND lead on the other end of the cable, so as to make handshake with Regen/Hugo. I don't notice any difference, in SQ, having this ground connected or pulled after handshake. The Intona is doing it's job of isolation on the GND. But do pull any 5V pins/wire from your usb cable will make a difference, along with breaking the shielding ground.

Wow, Made a nice difference in sound, lows/mids extremely clean. I'll have to do a little further optimization by adding the LPS-1 to my USB card and see if I can clean up some of that high end (very hard to detect) gleam from the highs that JS described as capable of passing thru the Intona.

Keep in mind that ground improvements are not an immediate change in SQ. It is a slower process since the ground currents have to find other paths to ground (ie. not neccessarily the path you want/think). I personally use additional external grounding boxes in my system with great result and could be one of the reasons I hear a more noticable result in lifting the GND...as well as the removal of the shielding mesh all together.

Here is a quote from Entreq´s website regarding the grounding boxes that you might be interested in when seeking to minimize high frequency noise.

Ground Boxes | Entreq

For us a clean and effective ground point is one of the most important factor's in ensuring the best possible sonic platform for any hifi system!
We normally say 220V 50Hz alternative110 V 60Hz. But in our opinion there are a lot more frequence on the power net. These is caused by the way we connect zero and protective ground together in the main central/fuse boxes.Most things these days run on electricity. Current goes in and current goes out of devices and lighting fixtures of every kind. All of these make the current messy. Not least computers with their switched power units, chargers for e.g., mobile telephones, all the halogen and LED lighting, dimmers etc. all cause a great deal of high-frequency noise and stay voltages. This noise always seeks the easiest path to the earth. And since this can be everything from 50-60 Hz to very high-frequency, but weak, currents, it is not always certain that the path of least resistance is via the protective earth. These currents instead can find dishwashers, laundry machines, counter tops with water pipes, your HiFi rack and your stereo set with all the cables and devices as more attractive paths to the earth. Moreover, these stay voltages often generate very large magnetic fields that absolutely have influence on the sound reproduction.

One big problem is that the protective ground many time are overloaded or not constructed for handle this pollutions. It can handle a real "bang" of 110-220Volt and X Watts without any problems, but when it come to this small currents of some Milli V with very high frequence it dont catch them. So instead these will flow arround in the power system searching for a place to ground. And in fact the protective grond can leak back a lot of pollutions to the power net that instead go to f,ex your HiFi system with all the cables and magnetic fields and load up and rest there in their serch for ground.Our ground boxes / Eartha cables are designed to resemble and work like a bit of Mother Earth in concentrated form and offer the simplest and fastest route for this high-frequency noise to reach a earth point. Since such are very high-frequency weak currents, it is not necessary to have a lot of mass; but it is important that the cables are optimized for these high frequency and the groundbox be a purely attractive earth point.The construction and choice of materials in the earth box has a crucial effect on the result. In part, the minerals and metals involved have an effect, but the relationship of proportion and distance between them also affects the result.

When you connect your system to one of our groundboxes you offer this high frequence stay voltages a ground point where they can find peace instead of flowing arround in the system.

Cornan · October 13, 2016

I test three 5v pack for iPhone/ipad.
This one https://www.amazon.fr/TeckNet®-génération-Technologie-BLUETEKTM-compatible/dp/B00FAU7ZB2 that is close to the one you give one link, and an other recent one, give bad results (very digital sound), on my tplink and player. They are probably switch regulated, with a lot of noise.

I have a old and cheap 5V pack that seams not to be regulated at all, that give very good results, both on the tplink, and on my player.

+1 unregulated battery packs is the best choise. Better to use two unregulated batteries on the TP-links than one regulated battery. With that said using a unregulated higher voltage battery pack with linear drop-down voltage regulators close to the powered source can be a good choise as well according to Alex @sandyk. It sounds good to me as well...even if I have´nt tried it yet though. Personally I would never connect a TP-link to the mains since I think that it is through the AC mains that ethernet is polluting the audio chain...not through the cables. In my opinion Supra Cat8 ethernet cables sounds better than any Cat6a I have tried which is likely due to the shielding/grounding. With a thoughtful power implementation and strong ac signal wifi can sound just as good as Cat8. Just my 2 cents though.

fob69 · October 13, 2016

You absolutely don't have to care about the ps for the uphill tplink (mine is suppled by switching dc usb from my tv player). It is isolated by optical from the downhill one, and ethernet tcp/ip protocol provide a perfect data transfert in all the cases. Of course you mustn't use a common supply for both tplink otherwise you break the optical isolation.

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Cornan · October 13, 2016

You absolutely don't have to care about the ps for the uphill tplink (mine is suppled by switching dc usb from my tv player). It is isolated by optical from the downhill one, and ethernet tcp/ip protocol provide a perfect data transfert in all the cases. Of course you mustn't use a common supply for both tplink otherwise you break the optical isolation.

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Tplink optical bridge/etalon streamer/audiogd nfb29/linn klout/athom sirrocco + athom rafale v38 hypex

How do you make sure that your tv player is isolated from the mains?

Even if the downhill TP-link is isolated the ethernet mains noise from the uphill devices could interfear with any other mains connected device in the audio chain. IME for example routers & wifi-extenders must be connected to a different mains fuse than the audio gears to minimize interfearence if not powered by batteries.

fob69 · October 13, 2016

It is not, but my downhill tp link is on battery too.

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fob69 · October 13, 2016

I don't see how to fully isolate the tv system from hifisystem. I use to have a galvanis transfo, but on the amp it makes loose too much dynamics, and on the Dac it changes the sounds, degrades the strereo image / i don't even know if it cut well the high frequency noise / about ground i did not cut it i think it is too dangerous on 230v components). The best i have done are thos two different lines and schaffners

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fob69 · October 13, 2016

http://78.228.92.114:80/photo/share/EOYhccC9/photo_5075622f436c61737320442d54204870204361626c6573_494d475f353232372e4a5047

Cornan · October 13, 2016

It is not, but my downhill tp link is on battery too.

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Tplink optical bridge/etalon streamer/audiogd nfb29/linn klout/athom sirrocco + athom rafale v38 hypex

IME the true advantages with battery power is made when all DC powered devices in the audio chain is battery supplied...and all IC´s inbetween the AC and DC connected deive(s) is isolated. YMMV ofcourse.

fob69 · October 13, 2016

IMO Uphill TPlink is not a part of the audio chain.

For the ac dac and amp, how do you isolate them ?

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Cornan · October 13, 2016

IMO Uphill TPlink is not a part of the audio chain.
For the ac dac and amp, how do you isolate them ?

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Tplink optical bridge/etalon streamer/audiogd nfb29/linn klout/athom sirrocco + athom rafale v38 hypex

The uphill could still affect the audio system if it is connected together. I said all DC connected devices should be battery powered IMO. You want to isolate the AC from DC currents and DC from AC currents as much as possible...just to be on the safe side. If all devices except one (ex.DAC/PRE/HPA as I use) is connected to AC mains while playing music and all IC´s are isolated you should at least have minimized these issues between the audio components (but still need to filter out the rest of the house hold).

Anyway, if you have tried to battery supply both TP-links IRL and do not hear any audioble differences there is no need to do any changes!

fob69 · October 13, 2016

In an electrical point of view, there is the same link between the first and second tp link than between my fridge or air dryer and the second tp link. :-)

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Cornan · October 13, 2016

In an electrical point of view, there is the same link between the first and second tp link than between my fridge or air dryer and the second tp link. :-)

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Tplink optical bridge/etalon streamer/audiogd nfb29/linn klout/athom sirrocco + athom rafale v38 hypex

Yes, but I do not hope that you have the fridge and the air dryer on the same mains fuse as your audio gears though! :-)

fob69 · October 13, 2016

Fuse provide an electrical isolation ?

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Cornan · October 13, 2016

Fuse provide an electrical isolation ?

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Tplink optical bridge/etalon streamer/audiogd nfb29/linn klout/athom sirrocco + athom rafale v38 hypex

Yes, AFAIK if it is on a dedicated AC line. My dedicated line is connected to one of these:

fob69 · October 13, 2016

A little more detail on what the Intona is doing.

It does isolate ground and power. The usb handshake works with detectors on both sides for this with separate paths through the isolation for these conditions on the bus so they can be recreated on the other side.

The 5V VBUS on the downstream side is provided by an isolated switching DC/DC converter. The VBUS from the upstream side drives a high frequency oscillator which feeds a transformer, the other side of the transformer drives diodes and a filter then into a regulator. The quality of the 5V coming out of this is decent but not spectacular.

John S.

(Yes i understood that there is another thread about this but...)

@John : Daniel the intona CEO wrote on the thread about Usb isolators that the intona power regulators are LINEAR and not switching.

B.

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r_w · October 13, 2016

Agree +1 (fuse probably means separate feed from the main board)

routers & wifi-extenders must be connected to a different mains fuse than the audio gears to minimize interfearence if not powered by batteries.

Cornan · October 13, 2016

Agree +1 (fuse probably means separate feed from the main board)

Yes, correct r_w! I am probably using the wrong words for it. Sorry for confusing things! :~)

Nice to have you here BTW! :-) You could maybe explain your personal experiances with the Intona. Do you hear any SQ differences lifting the GND with Intona or no difference at all?

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r_w · October 13, 2016

I've never heard it with the gnd line... I'd figured gnd lift long before I got the Intona.

Yes, correct r_w! I am probably using the wrong words for it. Sorry for confusing things! :~)
Nice to have you here BTW! :-) You could maybe explain your personal experiances with the Intona. Do you hear any SQ differences lifting the GND with Intona or no difference at all?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

Cornan · October 13, 2016

I've never heard it with the gnd line... I'd figured gnd lift long before I got the Intona.

Do you know if the Intona still makes a difference with both 5v and GND + shielding lifted? Have you tried without Intona and only RUR?

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Overall Isolation - network, USB, and power

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