Overall Isolation - network, USB, and power

[ElviaCaprice]

If you are using shielded cables the GND have just found another path to ground (through the shielding)! May sound the same...but could very well sound worse.

 

Not all DACs needs the GND for handshake (via the cable)....but the vast majority do!

 

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I doubt it. Your just making this far more complicated than it needs to be. I did notice originally, ages ago the change in SQ by cutting out the 5V. But the gnd after the Intona doesn't make a bit of difference. And it shouldn't if the Intona is doing it's galvanic isolation correctly.

[Cornan]

I doubt it. Your just making this far more complicated than it needs to be. I did notice originally, ages ago the change in SQ by cutting out the 5V. But the gnd after the Intona doesn't make a bit of difference.

If you want to cut the GND you'll have to use unshielded cables and you'll need to cut it both before AND after the Intona. It is really a matter of making things simple. Sometimes it is complicated to make things simple though.

 

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[ElviaCaprice]

If you want to cut the GND you'll have to use unshielded cables and you'll need to cut it both before AND after the Intona. It is really a matter of making things simple. Sometimes it is complicated to make things simple though.

 

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Are you implying that the Intona is not galvanically isolating the USB stream? It best be, thus that ground is not an issue.

[Cornan]

It is! But still there are benefits to be made by blocking power and GND since these are still not blocked by the Intona.

[davide256]

It is! But still there are benefits to be made by blocking power and GND since these are still not blocked by the Intona.

 

Irreversible action sounds like a bad idea. A little cut scotch tape over the 5v leads at both ends is the better starting point

[ElviaCaprice]

Okay

On another note, I went and pulled my Supra cable from the Intona and was aghast to notice my electrical tape was not in place over the 5V pin. Went ahead and covered both it and the gnd. I had a tiny digititise in my sound, now it appears, noise floor, digititize, to have been lowered even further (could just be my imagination, LOL). Was it because of that 5V running to the Regen? Or the gnd? Who knows. I'm going to say it was the 5V.

 

Hummm, wonder if it could be my DAC that could be causing the gnd loop if it is that? But that would only be the case when charging the batteries on both my Hugo and Regen, which I am not doing while listening. So no.

[Cornan]

AFAIK it is the AC currents that is forming a loop through DC paths (read John Swensson's posts). Unless your intire setup is powered by batteries unconnected to mains this AC loop will be present in power and ground paths and pass through the Intona undetected. It is therefore equally important to care about DC power, AC power and ground paths. Cut the 5v and lift the GND were possible in the IC's and ensure that you have a quick and limited path to AC power and safety ground.

The GND lift remove something you never knew were there in the first place.

 

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[fob69]

It is! But still there are benefits to be made by blocking power and GND since these are still not blocked by the Intona.

 

Are you shire intona doesn't isolate the ground ??

 

 

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Tplink optical bridge/etalon streamer/audiogd nfb29/linn klout/athom sirrocco + athom rafale v38 hypex

[Cornan]

Are you shire intona doesn't isolate the ground ??

 

 

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Tplink optical bridge/etalon streamer/audiogd nfb29/linn klout/athom sirrocco + athom rafale v38 hypex

 

Intona deals with DC currents...and the problem that is solved by lifting 5v and GND is caused by AC currents. Intona galvanicly isolates the USB but still "forward" 5v and GND. Just think of it. Without a 5v and GND connection 99% of the DAC´s would´nt work with the Intona.

 

If you are not in a hurry I know John Swensson mensioned that there is extensive research in this area and probably just a matter of time until we see some new devices that address this problem (ie. not the recently shipped LPS-1).

[Middy]

because of our friend here Mr Cornan...

I now have these on order to make some mini usb cable lifts. My Dac BROOKLYN needs the 5V but the connectors allow me to do a separate 5v to battery.. I will use the dip as a ground lift....

 

I can play with designs as well like some or no shielding ect...

This was the cheapest gold connectors I could find..

 

Via phone to Ipurifier 2 into intona to Dac..

 

 

 

10pcs USB B type Female receptacle 1 port Straight Vertical through hole 4 pin DIP type black insulator

http://s.aliexpress.com/JJzIBZfY

(from AliExpress Android)

 

Free shipping 10pcs/lot 3u high quality gold plating DIY USB 2.0 B type male plug jack wire bonding

http://s.aliexpress.com/2AJZziA7

(from AliExpress Android)

 

10pcs 1 Position 1P DIP Switch 2.54mm Pitch 2 Row Slide DIP Switch Free shipping

http://s.aliexpress.com/AniI7bIJ

(from AliExpress Android)

 

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[fob69]

Intona deals with DC currents...and the problem that is solved by lifting 5v and GND is caused by AC currents. Intona galvanicly isolates the USB but still "forward" 5v and GND. Just think of it. Without a 5v and GND connection 99% of the DAC´s would´nt work with the Intona.

 

Sorry for those newbie questions but :

- How does the dac detects that there is a ground comming from the usb ? is it "a potential difference, followed by a zero difference potentiel just after the hanshake" ?

- In the case where the player is battery suplied, where does this ground comes from ? is it a flotting point ground created by the player ?

- Does usualiy the incoming GND from usb the same that DAC GND or the DAC input is GND isolated (i can test is this evening), is it the same for symetrical DAC ?

 

B.

[ElviaCaprice]

Are you shire intona doesn't isolate the ground ??

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

Tplink optical bridge/etalon streamer/audiogd nfb29/linn klout/athom sirrocco + athom rafale v38 hypex

 

According to John Swenson, it does.

 

"Regular computer to Intona to REGEN to DAC. The Intona blocks the leakage current from SMPS of the computer, the REGEN has much better SI than either the computer or Intona, but you still get leakage current form the supply powering the REGEN. But cutting out the leakage current from the computer is a BIG improvement. "

 

From his posting here

 

And by powering my Regen/DAC with battery power, I ensure that no AC leakage is occurring back into my USB cable.

[Cornan]

- How does the dac detects that there is a ground comming from the usb ? is it "a potential difference, followed by a zero difference potentiel just after the hanshake" ?

I do not know exactly how it works in detail. I only know that the DAC usually perform the handshake via GND.

 

- In the case where the player is battery suplied, where does this ground comes from ? is it a flotting point ground created by the player ?

Ground reference is 0v...which is the difference between + and - on batteries (ground can for example be possitive and still work just fine as long as power is -. That is why checking the polarity is a good idea). Do not mix battery ground with safety ground which is AC...not DC. Remember that you do not connect your mobile device to safety ground when you carry it around and airplanes works just fine without a cable connected to the ground. Batteries are their own "power station" with their own ground potensial which is separate to safety ground. That is partly why powering all DC connected devices in the chain with batteries is a good idea...but "only" if you fully isolate each powered device from mains connected devices.

 

- Does usualiy the incoming GND from usb the same that DAC GND or the DAC input is GND isolated (i can test is this evening), is it the same for symetrical DAC ?

I do not know what a symetrical DAC is plus I did´nt fully understand your question!? Just remember that AFAIK the Intona does´nt isolate AC currents (loop) running through the GND and 5v DC wires in the USB cable. It deals with DC currents. Blocking 5v and lifting GND on unshielded USB cables deals with both AC and DC currents. The only use I personally would have with Intona is the isolation of the D- and D+ wires....but I am currently trying get rid of that last option as well....by using shielded USB barrels, short USB cables with D+ and D- on a distance from each other (ie. not twisted).

[Middy]

I did think if you are untwisting the data's ... try with a tube like a toilet roll shape

Have the wires run on the outside.

Data + - at 12 and 6 o'clock.

Have the GND 5V lifts at 3 and 9 oclock.

You can experiment with smaller lengths and wider diameters for wider spacing without desoldering the Data + -......

 

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[Cornan]

I did think if you are untwisting the data's ... try with a tube like a toilet roll shape

Have the wires run on the outside.

Data + - at 12 and 6 o'clock.

Have the GND 5V lifts at 3 and 9 oclock.

You can experiment with smaller lengths and wider diameters for wider spacing without desoldering the Data + -......

 

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Thanks Middy!

I am not sure if I follow you though...but I think I will buy those USB plugs with screw terminals that I posted on the other thread for my experiments. Since the pins have a separate input (incl shield) it will be very easy to try my different theories without solder/desolder. Except Mundorf gold silver wire I also intend to try silver pickup Litz wires for the D+ and D- (on a distance). It will be fun...just need to order the parts!

 

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[fob69]

... Just remember that AFAIK the Intona does´nt isolate AC currents (loop) running through the GND and 5v DC wires in the USB cable. It deals with DC currents.

 

Intona does isolate +5V and ground :

 

 

• Ultra-quiet power rail isolation, linear regulation
  

As i understand it, intona re generates his hown DC curent, isolated from input DC, but with NO add on power supply.

I don't see what could be better (expect no 5V and no ground if you don't need them)

[Cornan]

Intona does isolate +5V and ground :

 

 

• Ultra-quiet power rail isolation, linear regulation
  

As i understand it, intona re generates his hown DC curent, isolated from input DC, but with NO add on power supply.

I don't see what could be better (expect no 5V and no ground if you don't need them)

I never said that Intona do not isolate ground and 5v. It does...but it still makes a differens blocking the 5v and lifting the GND. IMO this is due to AC loops in the DC ground and 5v wires. If you have the Intona it is easy to hear by taping pin no 1 on the USB cable...and try to imagine that it will sound even better when the 5v path is properly cut and 100% isolated against all kind of noises. Just give it a try...but make sure to properly cover the pin with tape!

 

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[ElviaCaprice]

There is no AC loops after the Intona as long as you take care to power glavanically the remaining devices in the chain (thus reintroduce a ground loop). As of now, battery (not charging) or LPS-1 to power your Regen/DAC. This way you will never introduce any leakage from AC supplies via DC. Just eliminate the 5V pin at the Intona/Regen either by pulling the pin or tape over with electrical tape. Try tape first to test and hear the difference.

 

If you do these things, you don't need to eliminate the USB ground.

Just tested my USB ground on off the Supra to Regen, no difference with or without, but definitely a difference with 5V USB.

 

Note: It doesn't hurt to power the Intona via USB, but better to power with USB audio card plus adapter plus LPS. I am anxious to hear how the LPS-1 can be a factor powering the USB audio card.

[fob69]

I rode the post of J.S. recommended by ElviaCaprice above... very interesting.

 

I understand that if you use an intona and if you can cut the 5V on the output, you cut both ground loops, the leakage currents from source, the leakage currents on the 5V/ground intona output, signal is reclocked by intona... Everything is done, and with no added power supply. If the ground can be cutted too it will be even better.

 

I have a doubt on the galvanic isolation on the micro rendu ethernet input. Ethernet input is supposed to have a galvanic isolation, but on both my etalon and SBT, the PS that i use on the TPlink just before the player (optical bridge), has a strong effect on the SQ.

[ElviaCaprice]

I rode the post of J.S. recommended by ElviaCaprice above... very interesting.

 

I understand that if you use an intona and if you can cut the 5V on the output, you cut both ground loops, the leakage currents from source, the leakage currents on the 5V/ground intona output, signal is reclocked by intona... Everything is done, and with no added power supply. If the ground can be cutted too it will be even better.

 

I have a doubt on the galvanic isolation on the micro rendu ethernet input. Ethernet input is supposed to have a galvanic isolation, but on both my etalon and SBT, the PS that i use on the TPlink just before the player (optical bridge), has a strong effect on the SQ.

 

I'm not familiar with the Micro Rendu but it could also introduce a ground loop with non galvanic isolated power supply. Probably why JS recommends the LPS-1 and if done correctly, no need for the Intona.

[Middy]

Thanks Middy!

I am not sure if I follow you though...but I think I will buy those USB plugs with screw terminals that I posted on the other thread for my experiments. Since the pins have a separate input (incl shield) it will be very easy to try my different theories without solder/desolder. Except Mundorf gold silver wire I also intend to try silver pickup Litz wires for the D+ and D- (on a distance). It will be fun...just need to order the parts!

 

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Sorry hard to describe. This sort of effect with the wires...data +- wired opposite each other North south...

Your GND 5V East West with Dip switch's to cut signals.

 

same but follow this cylinder shape ( But tube will hold wires on outside. to keep wires away from each other..

 

 

 

 

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[Cornan]

Sorry hard to describe. This sort of effect with the wires...data +- wired opposite each other North south...

Your GND 5V East West with Dip switch's to cut signals.

[ATTACH]29739[/ATTACH]

 

same but follow this cylinder shape ( But tube will hold wires on outside. to keep wires away from each other..

 

[ATTACH]29740[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

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So you mean that it is a option for separating the wires from each other? No need for a tube! Using solid silver wires (or Mundorf gold silver) for the data will be enough. You just bend them away from each other in a C-curve shape (actually a 0-shape with D- & D+ together). They will not flex back and no need to physicly separate them by a tube!

The GND wire can run straight in the center with a 1-pole DIP switch and short stranded wires. Obviously the data wires will be longer.

 

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[jfaok]

Whilst waiting on the arrival of an Alldaq isolator recent posts have made me think that putting it after my W4S RUR might bring more benefit than before it. So my line up would be N100h/ RUR/ solid adapter/ Alldaq/ VBus2/ solid adapter/ DAC. Any one tried this with an Intona?

[JohnSwenson]

A little more detail on what the Intona is doing.

 

It does isolate ground and power. The usb handshake works with detectors on both sides for this with separate paths through the isolation for these conditions on the bus so they can be recreated on the other side.

 

The 5V VBUS on the downstream side is provided by an isolated switching DC/DC converter. The VBUS from the upstream side drives a high frequency oscillator which feeds a transformer, the other side of the transformer drives diodes and a filter then into a regulator. The quality of the 5V coming out of this is decent but not spectacular.

 

The digital isolation system and the transformer in the power system DO block almost all leakage current. The transformer is a high frequency transformer so it does block most leakage components which are mostly lower in frequency. Some higher frequency components will pass through the transformer, but they are going to be much lower in level than the high frequency POWER signal which is what the transformer is designed to pass.

 

Putting a REGEN after the Intona cleans up the issues with the not so great signal integrity and noise on the 5V line, but can introduce an additional leakage loop through the REGEN supply unless you use a battery or LPS-1 to power the REGEN.

 

Going with a microRendu powered by an LPS-1 is a really good choice since it prevents leakage loops from happening without needing other equipment.

 

As far as what is going on with the ETHERNET side of things, I will be very interested in hearing reports from people that use an LPS-1 with a microRendu whether Ethernet isolators etc make any difference in this configuration. I still don't have any good theories as to why an Ethernet isolator makes any difference given that Ethernet already has transformers on both ends. (this is assuming you are not using shielded cables that actually connect ground from one box to another)

 

John S.

[fob69]

The 5V VBUS on the downstream side is provided by an isolated switching DC/DC converter.

 

A switching converter ??. If your right that means that a good PS battery or other would be better and if so i understand your point of view about the regen

 

Putting a REGEN after the Intona cleans up the issues with the not so great signal integrity and noise on the 5V line

 

If the intona reclock the signal, that means that it is regenerated, so it should threats the integrity too

 

As far as what is going on with the ETHERNET side of things, I will be very interested in hearing reports from people that use an LPS-1 with a microRendu whether Ethernet isolators etc make any difference in this configuration. I still don't have any good theories as to why an Ethernet isolator makes any difference given that Ethernet already has transformers on both ends. (this is assuming you are not using shielded cables that actually connect ground from one box to another)

I did not test microrendu and it is probably very good on this point, but is seams not hazardous to think that the ethernet galvanic isolation on ethernet is made to stop the DC and low frequencies, and won't stop the high frequency noise close to the tcp/ip signal frequencies and its harmonics.