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Overall Isolation - network, USB, and power


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Have you tried establishing a baseline without the Intona, RUR etc? Which cable sounds best, Cardas, Curious? Which is in second place?

 

Since I haven't actually received my Intona, RUR, Curious 0.2m Regen link, etc, the answer is yes. :)

 

I tried to make that clear, so let me reiterate.

 

My baseline for the USB chain is a single 2m Cardas Clear USB cable.

 

To this, I will compare:

  1. USB cables
    • Curious 0.2m
    • The short generic USB cables that come with Intona and RUR
    • Generic 2m USB cable (DONE - Cardas was way better)

 

[*]Intona, RUR, both

[*]RUR LPS (Teradak Teralink X1/X2) vs stock SMPS

[*]Vbus2/split USB at different locations in the chain

 

Make sense?

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On the topic of using an LPS to drive clean 5V on a split USB cable, I like this LPS: Teradak Teralink x1 X2 DC8 5V 1A USB DC5V Port Hi Fi Linear Power Supply | eBay

 

It's an alternative to the Breeze el cheapo, but this kills 3 birds for me with one stone:

  • 8.5/1A to power W4S Recovery
  • 5V to power split USB, and
  • includes a split USB cable

 

Of course after a while I might be tempted to look at the Lightspeed 2g cable instead. (Lord, have mercy!)

 

 

I'm currently using the same Teradak TeraLink LPSU to power my microRendu. I made some modifications to this power supply:

 

- replaced two silicon rectifier diodes with Cree SiC Schottky rectifiers

- replaced all aluminum electrolytic 1500uF 25V capacitors with Panasonic FM 1800uF caps

- adjusted the output voltage to 6.25V for the microRendu

- attached two clamp-on ferrites to the included DC cable

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Yikes - I'm not geared to do DIY mods. Last time I used a soldering iron was more than 30 years ago. I'm more a software guy now!

 

I will have to judge it on its original merits.

 

No worries. I didn't do a before-after sound comparison of the Teradak before jumping into the mods. My soldering iron addiction was building up so I couldn't help myself...

 

I just ordered an UpTone UltraCap LPS-1 to use with my microRendu. The LPS-1 should be the ultimate in power supply isolation and I look forward to hearing the sonic benefits.

 

Ethernet isolation: 2 x TRENDnet TFC-1000MGA FMCs

USB isolation: Intona USB Isolator (industrial edition)

Power supply isolation: UpTone UltraCap LPS-1

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No worries. I didn't do a before-after sound comparison of the Teradak before jumping into the mods. My soldering iron addiction was building up so I couldn't help myself...

 

I just ordered an UpTone UltraCap LPS-1 to use with my microRendu. The LPS-1 should be the ultimate in power supply isolation and I look forward to hearing the sonic benefits.

 

Ethernet isolation: 2 x TRENDnet TFC-1000MGA FMCs

USB isolation: Intona USB Isolator (industrial edition)

Power supply isolation: UpTone UltraCap LPS-1

 

Congrats on the LPS-1. It seems a perfect match for the mRendu. I'm really looking forward to reviews and feedback.

 

Since I'm on the Aries Mini, neither the LPS-1 nor the JS-2 extend up the 14-18v range needed. And both LPS are hard to justify for "just" a Regen or RUR. At least to me.

 

At some point I'll have to try the mRendu!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

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hi Austinpop,

interesting thread. i apologize, I admit I read only the first posts (remaining : later).

I can give you my experience regarding the power of the FMC :

I started powering them with batteries : batteries become noisy within a year => avoid batteries, not good on long term.

 

I replaced them with a cheap/reliable on long term DIY PS & dawn good, a 3 steps "stabilized" SMPS :

A SMPS Meanwell to go from AC to 12VDC (25eur)

then I use a down-step module Drok (you can find at Amazon at 13eur) to down step the voltage to the one you need (3.3 5 or 9V depending on the devices)

and add 4 6800µF capacitors (in parallel, 2eur each max) before & 4 after the Drok to stabilized the ripple : you have a dead stable voltage for 40Eur max.

 

This is a photo of this PS : http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/52678620160825Breezefinal.jpg

On the left the MeanWell.

Capacitors & Drok are connected onto a experiment board. Simple, easy, cheap, and dead efficient.

On this photo it is to power my USB>spdif interface, Breeze DU-U8, which works way better like this.

 

That was just to say : no battery, but a good stabilized PS, whatever it is :-)

Rgds

2.1 basic stuff => 2 mains are Dynaudio Core59 + sub Dynaudio 18s

Actives / digital AES in / active correction on PC side

Passive daddy setup is dead

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hi Austinpop,

interesting thread. i apologize, I admit I read only the first posts (remaining : later).

I can give you my experience regarding the power of the FMC :

I started powering them with batteries : batteries become noisy within a year => avoid batteries, not good on long term.

 

I replaced them with a cheap/reliable on long term DIY PS & dawn good, a 3 steps "stabilized" SMPS :

A SMPS Meanwell to go from AC to 12VDC (25eur)

then I use a down-step module Drok (you can find at Amazon at 13eur) to down step the voltage to the one you need (3.3 5 or 9V depending on the devices)

and add 4 6800µF capacitors (in parallel, 2eur each max) before & 4 after the Drok to stabilized the ripple : you have a dead stable voltage for 40Eur max.

 

This is a photo of this PS : http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/52678620160825Breezefinal.jpg

On the left the MeanWell.

Capacitors & Drok are connected onto a experiment board. Simple, easy, cheap, and dead efficient.

On this photo it is to power my USB>spdif interface, Breeze DU-U8, which works way better like this.

 

That was just to say : no battery, but a good stabilized PS, whatever it is :-)

Rgds

 

Thanks for your perspective and your experience with this.

 

At a fundamental level, I strongly believe a good PS, in addition to being low-noise, well-regulated, etc, must have outstanding transient response, i.e. the ability to deliver current peaks, and I a just have trouble believing a BPS can do that.

 

I am sure I'll now hear from people about their fancy suitcase sized batteries that prove me wrong. So yes - I may be misinformed, but I do have a bias for powered LPSes!

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Well, I heard back from Ayre about the Codex, and it was very interesting, and somewhat surprising to me. Alex conveyed the following, direct from the developers (this is paraphrased):

  • The Codex, unlike the QB9, does not self-power the USB side of the device. The Codex USB section is bus powered, so it will always draw current, which will be slightly sample rate dependent.
  • The max current draw they've measured is about 300mA.

So the upstream neighbor of the Codex will see a load on the VBUS line. Assuming that neighbor is the RUR, the question becomes which is cleaner:

  1. RUR powered by a clean and powerful LPS or,
  2. Vbus2 5V-blocker on the RUR ouput, and an LPS feeding clean 5V direct to the Codex via a split USB cable.

My gut and logic tells me that 1. is the way to go, but this whole field is so topsy-turvy that I wouldn't be surprised to find that 2. sounds better!

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hi Austinpop,

on the photo above you can see that I use this adapter to externaly power the USB input of the interface : Câble adaptateur USB-B pour alimentation Jack 5.5/2.1mm Femelle - Audiophonics

I confirm it sounds good that way, better than without.

So, I would vote "2" ;-)

Rgds

2.1 basic stuff => 2 mains are Dynaudio Core59 + sub Dynaudio 18s

Actives / digital AES in / active correction on PC side

Passive daddy setup is dead

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Congrats on the LPS-1. It seems a perfect match for the mRendu. I'm really looking forward to reviews and feedback.

 

Since I'm on the Aries Mini, neither the LPS-1 nor the JS-2 extend up the 14-18v range needed. And both LPS are hard to justify for "just" a Regen or RUR. At least to me.

 

At some point I'll have to try the mRendu!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

I also have one Aries Mini. It is currently powered by an Auralic LPS that came with the Aries Femto, which has been given a JS-2.

 

The Sbooster BOTW P&P ECO 15-16V power supply may be a good upgrade option for the Aries Mini. I just ordered an Sbooster with the Ultra as a candidate to replace the Auralic LPS, along with a few Vbus2 isolators to play with and share with friends.

 

The Teradak 8.5V 1A LPS may be a cost effective option for the Regen. This output voltage of this LPS is internally adjustable via a multi-turn potentiometer, though you will have to open the case to access it, plus a multimeter to measure the voltage. I modified two Teradaks as I have the components on hand and love to tinker with hardware, but even the stock units should be decent LPS designs, and they don't cost an arm and a leg. Setting the voltage to 6 - 6.5V should enable this Teradak to support Regen and microRendu, and 9V for RUR.

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Since I haven't actually received my Intona, RUR, Curious 0.2m Regen link, etc, the answer is yes. :)

 

I tried to make that clear, so let me reiterate.

 

My baseline for the USB chain is a single 2m Cardas Clear USB cable.

 

To this, I will compare:

  1. USB cables
    • Curious 0.2m
    • The short generic USB cables that come with Intona and RUR
    • Generic 2m USB cable (DONE - Cardas was way better)

 

[*]Intona, RUR, both

[*]RUR LPS (Teradak Teralink X1/X2) vs stock SMPS

[*]Vbus2/split USB at different locations in the chain

 

Make sense?

 

Hi all,

 

I wanted to give an update on my evaluation. So far, I've received the Vbus2, Intona and the RUR, but I'm still waiting for the Curious Regen link, the Teralink X1/X2 LPS, and also a LightSpeed 2G split USB cable that I bought used from a head-fi'er.

 

All the new stuff is burned in at least 50 hours.

 

So far, these are the experiments I've tried:

  1. Baseline: Auralic Aries Mini <- Cardas Clear 2m USB -> Ayre Codex
  2. Add RUR: Auralic Aries Mini <- Cardas Clear 2m USB -> RUR <-6" generic USB-> Ayre Codex
  3. Add Intona: Auralic Aries Mini <- Cardas Clear 2m USB -> Intona Industrial <-6" generic USB-> RUR <-6" generic USB-> Ayre Codex
  4. Add Vbus2: Auralic Aries Mini <- Cardas Clear 2m USB -> Intona Industrial <-Vbus2-> <-6" generic USB-> RUR <-6" generic USB-> Ayre Codex

Result: 4 > 3 > 2 > 1, where > denotes "sounds better than."

 

The impact of these USB tweaks are very hard to articulate, not least because they're so damn hard to even explain! But my ears tell me the improvements are real In general I would say the improvements are in the areas of

  • bass slam/tightness,
  • dimensionality - i.e. instruments are more fleshed out and sound more real, and
  • Coherence/resolution - easier to identify individual instruments.

I was hoping to keep costs down by deciding between the Intona and RUR, but they really sound better in tandem.

 

Once the rest of the gear gets here and burns in, I'll conduct the second wave of experiments, which are:

 

  1. Swap in Curious link: Auralic Aries Mini <- Cardas Clear 2m USB -> Intona Industrial <-Vbus2-> <-Curious 0.2m USB-> RUR <-6" generic USB-> Ayre Codex
  2. Swap in LPS for RUR: replace SMPS with Teralink 9V/1A
  3. Add Vbus2, swap in Lightspeed 2G, LPS for 5V VBUS to Codex: Auralic Aries Mini <- Cardas Clear 2m USB -> Intona Industrial <-Vbus2-> <-Curious 0.2m-> RUR <-Vbus2-> <-Lightspeed 2G 2m (data)-> Ayre Codex
    • Teralink X1/X2 5V/1A USB <-Lightspeed 2g 2m (power)-> Codex

Will keep y'all posted.

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Hi all,

 

Thank you for this thread.

 

I just bought an etalon streamer and i am upgrading the environment.

I have an intona and a EMO EN-HD70 on the way (i will report tests between optical bridge and EN-HD70).

 

After some test with lithium battery, i decide to build a regulated lifepo4 battery for the etalon.

 

I have an optical bridge with TP-link MC110CS .

Do you think i should use the same battery/regulator for the TP link and Etalon, one battery and two regulators ou two battery ans two regulators ?

 

Best regards

 

Bernard

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Hi all,

 

Thank you for this thread.

 

I just bought an etalon streamer and i am upgrading the environment.

I have an intona and a EMO EN-HD70 on the way (i will report tests between optical bridge and EN-HD70).

 

After some test with lithium battery, i decide to build a regulated lifepo4 battery for the etalon.

 

I have an optical bridge with TP-link MC110CS .

Do you think i should use the same battery/regulator for the TP link and Etalon, one battery and two regulators ou two battery ans two regulators ?

 

Best regards

 

Bernard

 

An optical Ethernet is not an option for me. So I was looking at the EMO EN-70HD as well. I am interested in your findings.

 

Ps

 

what is a RUR?

[br]

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Do you think i should use the same battery/regulator for the TP link and Etalon, one battery and two regulators ou two battery ans two regulators ?

 

Two batteries and two regulators because of two reasons:

1. Regulators...even good linear ones close to the source (very recommended as long as they are drop-down regulators though)..will create noises of their own. You will limit the noise being shared between the TP link and Etalon by using two batteries IMO.

 

2. Powering two different sources with one battery could be very dangerous if the batteries sees a different voltage in the same chain. It could end up with fire , smoke, fried gears and/or an explotion if you are not 100% sure what you are doing. Two batteries are both safer and better for SQ IMO.

 

YMMV & my 2 cents! ;)

 

 

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I don't understand the mileage joke ...

Thank you for the advice.

Lifepo4 batteries seams to be less unstable than lithium.

 

I read that ethernet has galvanic isolation. It is a joke.

I first use a tecknet lithium supply for tp link, not only the sound was horrible but i did not even could play properly 192kh throught usb.

 

Other question, about grounding : both tplink and etalon don't have ground connection on supply. If i use inota between etalon and the dac, i will have no ground connection at all ... isn't it a problem ?

 

Bernard

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

Tplink optical bridge/etalon streamer/audiogd nfb29/linn klout/athom sirrocco + athom rafale v38 hypex

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I read that ethernet has galvanic isolation. It is a joke.

 

Ethernet signals are transformer coupled by design. Galvanic isolation refers to DC currents being blocked between two circuits with information transfer between them. Galvanic isolation does not guarantee that high frequency AC signals will not jump across the barrier. Typical Ethernet transformers are of a quality level that allows RF noise to leak through the transformer primary/secondary DC barrier and conduct onto the Ethernet cable to reach the device on the other end.

 

Companies like EMO Systems state that their Ethernet isolation devices use high quality transformers to attenuate AC signals as well as offer an increased degree of ESD protection. Fiber optics is another solution where the data transfer is achieved using photons instead of electrons (optic fibers carry data signal photons but not noise electrons). All this is to say that standard Ethernet is far from being a good data transport medium, and the junk carried through Ethernet cables has been observed to be detrimental to sound quality by many here at CA.

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I don't understand the mileage joke ...

Thank you for the advice.

Lifepo4 batteries seams to be less unstable than lithium.

 

I read that ethernet has galvanic isolation. It is a joke.

I first use a tecknet lithium supply for tp link, not only the sound was horrible but i did not even could play properly 192kh throught usb.

 

Other question, about grounding : both tplink and etalon don't have ground connection on supply. If i use inota between etalon and the dac, i will have no ground connection at all ... isn't it a problem ?

 

Bernard

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

Tplink optical bridge/etalon streamer/audiogd nfb29/linn klout/athom sirrocco + athom rafale v38 hypex

 

The YMMV, 2 cents, IME and IMO is not a joke. However, it is funny that pre-cautions like this is needed in the first place to ensure no hard feelings when someone have a different opinion.

 

Battery uses 0v as ground reference which is the difference between + and -. No need to worry about adding the Intona into the mix. It will galvanicly isolate the devices from each other...which is a good thing.

In my own setup the DAC/PRE/HPA is the only device connected to mains AC ground. I use no 5v, shielding, dielectrics or GND between the devices...and it have never sounded better.

 

Regarding galvanic isolated Ethernet I think @scan80269 gave you a very good answer. I totally agree that it is not a joke...but there are many ways to galvanicly isolate ethernet and I strongly beleive in passive devices for any (possible) type of galvanic Isolation.

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

 

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I agree than adding noise to noise doesn't seams to be the good solution.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

Tplink optical bridge/etalon streamer/audiogd nfb29/linn klout/athom sirrocco + athom rafale v38 hypex

 

Personally I am convinced that using batteries without any voltage regulators at all is the best way to go....just important that the battery have a high capacity mAh rating and a descent A output rating. However, using a high voltage battery with a linear voltage regulator close to the powered source could prove to be beneficial in certain applications according to other members.

 

Personally I am not fully convinced that the Intona is the way to go though (even if it is better than nothing)...since it cannot be 100% isolated, it consumes power, it uses regulators and uses impedance control (=capasitive coupling). I would rather remove the shielding, cut the 5v and remove the GND after handshake...but if that is possible or not all depends on the construction of your DAC.

 

 

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For the battery, lifepo4 does not exist in 4,8v or 5v, so i took one given for 6v (don't know why it is not 6,4v as it should be, i wish it is not already actively regulated) : http://www.all-batteries.fr/batterie-lithium-fer-phosphate-un38-3-6v-4-5ah-t1-aml9142.html

 

So i must use a regulator. I choose a TPS7A4700 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18245866/Universal%20Power%20Supply%20with%20TPS7A4700%20LDO%20VR%20%28OCT%29.pdf).

 

I will try with regulator only, and with regulator + pcb. Do you think i should remove the electrolytic capa and plug the battery there ?

 

 

I see that you have experience with battery... I tried a simple 4,5V alcaline battery, and the sound was not very good. Would there be any "chemical noise" one those batteries ?

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

Tplink optical bridge/etalon streamer/audiogd nfb29/linn klout/athom sirrocco + athom rafale v38 hypex

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For the battery, lifepo4 does not exist in 4,8v or 5v, so i took one given for 6v (don't know why it is not 6,4v as it should be, i wish it is not already actively regulated) : Batterie lithium fer phosphate UN38.3 6V 4.5Ah T1 - AML9142 | All-batteries.fr

 

So i must use a regulator. I choose a TPS7A4700 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18245866/Universal%20Power%20Supply%20with%20TPS7A4700%20LDO%20VR%20%28OCT%29.pdf).

 

I will try with regulator only, and with regulator + pcb. Do you think i should remove the electrolytic capa and plug the battery there ?

 

 

I see that you have experience with battery... I tried a simple 4,5V alcaline battery, and the sound was not very good. Would there be any "chemical noise" one those batteries ?

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

Tplink optical bridge/etalon streamer/audiogd nfb29/linn klout/athom sirrocco + athom rafale v38 hypex

 

When choosing a battery without a regulator it is very important to first of all check the minimum voltage and maximum voltage of the device you want to power. Also important to know the cut-off voltage and the normal voltage ofcourse.

If we take my Auralic Aries Mini as an example. It can be powered between 14-18v. I choosed a 14,8v Li-ion battery pack which is 16,8v fully charged, runs the majority of its charge on 14,8v and cuts-off at 12v. In order not to drop below 14v I need to make sure that the capasity is high enough so the run time is longer...which made me choose 12000 mAh. Of course I calculated the run time before I choosed the value checking how much watts (average vs maximum) my Aries Mini consumes and made myself a voltage meter for initial monitoring of the voltage. I also wanted a high output to ensure enough over-head. My Aries Mini requires 1A...and I choosed 3A to be sufficient.

 

What I wanted to say is that all these thing matters if you want to make the best of it with batteries.

I also think that it is more important to galvanicly isolate all the IC´s with batteries than with a LPS for example...meaning the gains with galvanic isolation is even greater with batteries IMO. However, every new powered device in the chain requires its own battery supply and biulding a complicated setup is just not battery optimized. Battery power requires a simple setup with the goal to just have one or two devices connected to AC mains....the remaining devices should be "unseen" (ie. completely uplugged while listen to music) by the AC mains and all IC´s galvanicly isolated to the AC connected devices.

 

Batteries are not without noises...but with the right focus they can be isolated from the rest of the equipment...which is IMO were you want to end up.

 

Unfortunately I have no personal experiance in LiFePO4 batteries....but read a lot of good stuff about them.

 

 

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