Overall Isolation - network, USB, and power

[lmitche]

The Intona always needs power at its input, it's not just used for handshaking.

[fob69]

Tecknet switching regulator is so noisy that IME if i supply my etalon streamer with it, intona don't syncrhonise.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

Tplink optical bridge/etalon streamer/audiogd nfb29/linn klout/athom sirrocco + athom rafale v38 hypex

[MrUnderhill]

That is awesome news. I'm so glad you're hearing the benefits. I must say there is no end to this tweaking, so at some point I will stop, and just enjoy the music!!

 

Yes!

 

I had a friend over this morning and showed him my micro-optical network. I then did a demo with it in circuit and the AQ Cinnamon going direct to the small TP-Link switch. One of the tracks I played was 'I Heard it Through the Grapevine', he immediatly picked up that without the optical in circuit the Hi-Hat sounded truncated, no ring - even though it is damped. I hesitate to use the word relaxed, but it is the addition of small amounts of detail and the removal of small amounts of digital sharpness that is both obvious and excellent. Add in the improved imaging and I think that this is something that everyone should try.

 

As it happens I have a TotalDAC USB cable on order, birthday present from my wife, and that will be my last tweak for a while ......probably.

 

M

[austinpop]

Yeh, something isn't right with that battery. Do you have a DMM to measure the voltage drop when something is drawing power?

 

I do have a multimeter, but very hard to stick the probes in when connected.

 

Are you 100% sure that it is not something wrong with your Lightspeed G2 cable...or that you are connecting the correct leg (black) to power?

Some DACs is more "power hungry" than others...but 5v/3A (3,4A in total) should really be enough to make contact. I would actually check that Lightspeed 2G cable. Check if you get a connection with this setup: Aries Mini>Lightspeed 2G (black=power)>Tecknet & Lightspeed 2G (data)>Ayre Codex. If you have a charge/DC switch on that Teknet Powerbank make sure it is set correctly (ie. to DC/output or similar). Often problems like this are due to cables IME.

 

Yes, I think it is the cable. I replaced the battery with a good old Apple 10W charger, and still no luck.

 

@austinpop

I think you could also check the GND connection on the Lightspeed 2G using a probe (continue check). Since the Intona blinks it feels like it is waiting for the handshake which is made through the GND.

Side note. Checking this video

makes me wonder if Intona allows to remove the power leg when the handshake have been done? Could be worth checking out anyway!

 

The Intona always needs power at its input, it's not just used for handshaking.

 

Yes, Intona uses bus power to operate.

 

Tecknet switching regulator is so noisy that IME if i supply my etalon streamer with it, intona don't syncrhonise.

 

Good to know.

[austinpop]

OK - so after some more experimentation, it turns out the LS 2G cable is fine. I found a couple of configurations that worked.

 

This one:

MB Pro USB port 1 > LH Data------->

Ayre Codex DAC

MB Pro USB port 2 > LH Power------>

And this configuration:

Aries Mini > LH Data---------------------->

Ayre Codex DAC

Apple 5V/2A charger > LH Power ---->

However, replacing the power source (Apple 5V/2A charger) with the Tecknet caused the above to fail. Also, while the Apple charger worked above, it would not work:

 

To power the Intona:

Aries Mini > LH Data---------------------->

Intona > W4S RUR > Ayre Codex DAC

Apple 5V/2A charger > LH Power ---->

Or in this configuration:

Aries Mini > Intona > W4S RUR > LH Data----->

Ayre Codex DAC

Apple 5V/2A charger > LH Power ---------------->

 

Until I get a high-quality, well regulated 5V LPS in the house, I think the LS 2G experiments will have to wait. But at least the cable isn't defective, as initially suspected.

[ElviaCaprice]

Why do you use an Intona with an Aries Mini? If you have to achieve galvanic isolation twice, why not just use a PC/MAC and do it only once, galvanic isolation. It appears to me that in your endeavor to go wireless that you have created more complications than if you had just stayed with USB throughout the stream or wireless with the streamer.

[austinpop]

I'm not using wireless on the Mini. I don't use a PC/Mac out of choice.

 

You need to look at the overall system.

 

See my SIG below. Also, go back to post 232 and look at the diagram of my system topology.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[Cornan]

OK - so after some more experimentation, it turns out the LS 2G cable is fine. I found a couple of configurations that worked.

 

This one:

MB Pro USB port 1 > LH Data------->

Ayre Codex DAC

MB Pro USB port 2 > LH Power------>

And this configuration:

Aries Mini > LH Data---------------------->

Ayre Codex DAC

Apple 5V/2A charger > LH Power ---->

However, replacing the power source (Apple 5V/2A charger) with the Tecknet caused the above to fail. Also, while the Apple charger worked above, it would not work:

 

To power the Intona:

Aries Mini > LH Data---------------------->

Intona > W4S RUR > Ayre Codex DAC

Apple 5V/2A charger > LH Power ---->

Or in this configuration:

Aries Mini > Intona > W4S RUR > LH Data----->

Ayre Codex DAC

Apple 5V/2A charger > LH Power ---------------->

 

Until I get a high-quality, well regulated 5V LPS in the house, I think the LS 2G experiments will have to wait. But at least the cable isn't defective, as initially suspected.

 

Looks like @fob69 might be right with those noisy regulators.

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[gstew]

Had my offer accepted too. It will be interesting to see how the two approaches stack up!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

My Baaske Isolator plus ferrite beaded isolation cable came in today. Popped it in tonight, after 2 swaps in and out and 5 minutes I bought another. Nope, not sufficient testing to isolate what is making things sound less 'course' yet more dynamic with the isolator and isolation cable in. AND I have not tried to compare passive filtering versus optical. But it was a clear improvement... I made sure my offer for a 2nd one (for an upgrade to my other system) was accepted before I posted.

 

Any news on yours Austinpop?

 

Greg in Mississippi

[austinpop]

Any news on yours Austinpop?

Greg in Mississippi

 

Mine arrived today, but not had time to open it up yet. Will try to evaluate tonight, but no promises.

[austinpop]

Hmmmm... [emoji848]

 

I spent about 45 mins before bed comparing between no isolation, passive (Baaske), and fiber.

 

The jury is still out for me. I don't want to say more until I listen some more.

 

Hopefully, more tomorrow.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[Theobetley]

My Baaske Isolator plus ferrite beaded isolation cable came in today. Popped it in tonight, after 2 swaps in and out and 5 minutes I bought another. Nope, not sufficient testing to isolate what is making things sound less 'course' yet more dynamic with the isolator and isolation cable in. AND I have not tried to compare passive filtering versus optical. But it was a clear improvement... I made sure my offer for a 2nd one (for an upgrade to my other system) was accepted before I posted.

 

Any news on yours Austinpop?

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

Hey Gregg this is Theo from Michigan. How are you? So you like these isolators. Where did you get them how much?

[Jud]

My Baaske Isolator plus ferrite beaded isolation cable came in today. Popped it in tonight, after 2 swaps in and out and 5 minutes I bought another. Nope, not sufficient testing to isolate what is making things sound less 'course' yet more dynamic with the isolator and isolation cable in. AND I have not tried to compare passive filtering versus optical. But it was a clear improvement... I made sure my offer for a 2nd one (for an upgrade to my other system) was accepted before I posted.

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

I had a "noise sniffer" type piece (amplifies noise) in my system when I tried the Baaske upon first getting it, so the difference it made in reducing noise was very evident.

 

lmitche I know thinks the EMO Systems isolators are even more effective, though they are more expensive.

[Jud]

Hey Gregg this is Theo from Michigan. How are you? So you like these isolators. Where did you get them how much?

 

Not Greg, but: Baaske MI 1005 Medical Ethernet Isolator & Ferrite Beaded RJ45 Isolation Cable | eBay

[Theobetley]

Not Greg, but: Baaske MI 1005 Medical Ethernet Isolator & Ferrite Beaded RJ45 Isolation Cable | eBay

 

Thanks

[lmitche]

I had a "noise sniffer" type piece (amplifies noise) in my system when I tried the Baaske upon first getting it, so the difference it made in reducing noise was very evident.

 

lmitche I know thinks the EMO Systems isolators are even more effective, though they are more expensive.

Actually, I have one Baaske and three EMOsystems isolation transformers. I bought the Baaske first, then one EMOsystems, compared the two and moved to EMOsystems for the other two.

 

It was two years ago and I can't remember the detailed differences in SQ, but it was real.

[gstew]

Thanks

 

Thx Jud.

 

Theo, great to hear from you. I added the Baaske between the player computer (in your case your uRendu, in this case an R-Pi) and a FMC-based optical network segment, which provides VERY good isolation from the upstream computer with no impact on network quality and a significant improvement in sound quality.

 

For that I used two of these FMCs from Amazon:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0034CMZIG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

one of these cables also from Amazon:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000067SCD/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

and two of these power supplies from Jameco to replace the supplied SMPS adapters on the FMCs:

 

https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=1953639

 

For slightly better sound instead of two of these, on the FMC at the computer I am currently using this battery from Amazon to power it:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FAU7ZB2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

And I charge the battery all the time with this adapter instead:

 

https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=168605

 

While I DIY'd the cables for this, jcn3 nicely provided these two links for appropriate adapter cables:

 

Here's the adapter: https://www.amazon.com/Conwork-Charger-Adapter-Connector-Multimedia/dp/B01G6EBIZY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1477134390&sr=8-2&keywords=Barrel+jack+to+mini+usb

 

You'll also need this on the other side: https://www.amazon.com/CableDeconn-Volt-Barrel-Power-Cable/dp/B012VLKXKM/ref=pd_sim_23_1?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B012VLKXKM&pd_rd_r=Z3TMWHPJ7MH46G2WTGH7&pd_rd_w=iFwXr&pd_rd_wg=E6WDs&psc=1&refRID=Z3TMWHPJ7MH46G2WTGH7

 

The two FMCs WILL both work with 5VDC adapters instead of 9VDC adapters for direct powering due to the type of regulator in the units. BUT some have reported they sound better with 9VDC instead of 5VDC when powered from an adapter. That makes me think that a higher voltage battery setup might be better too, but I am VERY happy with the improvements I got from the FMC + Baaske filter setup and I am not terribly inclined to spend more time tweaking my network setup now... I have other fish to fry!

 

Later!

 

Greg in Mississippi

[gstew]

I had a "noise sniffer" type piece (amplifies noise) in my system when I tried the Baaske upon first getting it, so the difference it made in reducing noise was very evident.

 

lmitche I know thinks the EMO Systems isolators are even more effective, though they are more expensive.

 

My understanding is that putting these isolators in series should be additive. Given the cost difference, If I wanted to try to take it up a notch, I'd be inclined to get 2-3 of the Baaske to put in series before springing for an EMO. Maybe it would be better, maybe not. But I'm sufficiently happy with my FMC/Baaske combo that I'm going to go work on other areas of my systems now.

 

Greg in Mississippi

[austinpop]

Greg, Larry,

 

I still need to get back to my comparisons, but I was wondering: do you both also apply isolation in the USB chain?

 

I did my FMC isolation first before getting into the USB side, and I get the sense the magnitude of SQ improvement on network isolation has gone down with the addition of USB isolation.

 

I will double check if I can. Also, I didn't consider adding the Baaske upstream of the FMC. Will try that too.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[gstew]

Greg, Larry,

 

I still need to get back to my comparisons, but I was wondering: do you both also apply isolation in the USB chain?

 

I did my FMC isolation first before getting into the USB side, and I get the sense the magnitude of SQ improvement on network isolation has gone down with the addition of USB isolation.

 

I will double check if I can. Also, I didn't consider adding the Baaske upstream of the FMC. Will try that too.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

No USB in my computer audio setups, I use a network fed Raspberry Pi running Squeezelite and connected to one of several different I2S-connected DACs... some decidedly low-end, some pushing into pretty good territory.

 

Sorry, can't offer any assistance on USB!

 

Greg in Mississippi

[Theobetley]

Thx Jud.

 

Theo, great to hear from you. I added the Baaske between the player computer (in your case your uRendu, in this case an R-Pi) and a FMC-based optical network segment, which provides VERY good isolation from the upstream computer with no impact on network quality and a significant improvement in sound quality.

 

For that I used two of these FMCs from Amazon:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0034CMZIG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

one of these cables also from Amazon:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000067SCD/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

and two of these power supplies from Jameco to replace the supplied SMPS adapters on the FMCs:

 

https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=1953639

 

For slightly better sound instead of two of these, on the FMC at the computer I am currently using this battery from Amazon to power it:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FAU7ZB2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

And I charge the battery all the time with this adapter instead:

 

https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=168605

 

While I DIY'd the cables for this, jcn3 nicely provided these two links for appropriate adapter cables:

 

Here's the adapter: https://www.amazon.com/Conwork-Charger-Adapter-Connector-Multimedia/dp/B01G6EBIZY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1477134390&sr=8-2&keywords=Barrel+jack+to+mini+usb

 

You'll also need this on the other side: https://www.amazon.com/CableDeconn-Volt-Barrel-Power-Cable/dp/B012VLKXKM/ref=pd_sim_23_1?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B012VLKXKM&pd_rd_r=Z3TMWHPJ7MH46G2WTGH7&pd_rd_w=iFwXr&pd_rd_wg=E6WDs&psc=1&refRID=Z3TMWHPJ7MH46G2WTGH7

 

The two FMCs WILL both work with 5VDC adapters instead of 9VDC adapters for direct powering due to the type of regulator in the units. BUT some have reported they sound better with 9VDC instead of 5VDC when powered from an adapter. That makes me think that a higher voltage battery setup might be better too, but I am VERY happy with the improvements I got from the FMC + Baaske filter setup and I am not terribly inclined to spend more time tweaking my network setup now... I have other fish to fry!

 

Later!

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

What a great response. You are a treasure trove of knowledge/experience in all stuff audio. Since I do have a uRendu it will be interesting to test whether these filters do anything for me.

[austinpop]

Hmmmm... [emoji848]

 

I spent about 45 mins before bed comparing between no isolation, passive (Baaske), and fiber.

 

The jury is still out for me. I don't want to say more until I listen some more.

 

Hopefully, more tomorrow.

 

Hey folks,

 

So I finally had some more time last night to try out the Baaske in various configurations.

 

Net net - for me, on my system, the Baaske does not make an audible impact. I stress the phrase on my system because of the context in the next paragraph.

 

As the OP, I've posted my personal journey toward overall isolation up-thread, in some detail. My current playback chain is in my signature, but this journey has taken many steps. I mention this because network isolation using fiber was the first step I took. At the time, replacing a straight Ethernet wire to my Aries Mini with a FMC-fiber-FMC isolator made a - what I remember to be - very noticeable improvement in SQ.

 

Since then, I've taken several more steps on the isolation journey, on both USB and power:

1. A dedicated 20A AC line
   
2. Added PS Audio PowerPort outlet
   
3. Added PS Audio P5 PerfectWave Regenerator to replace my Dectet
   
4. Upgraded power cables
   
5. Added W4S Recovery
   
6. Added Intona Industrial
   
7. Upgraded USB cables
   

The point of this clarification is to inform my latest findings while evaluating the Baaske for network isolation. The baseline for my network isolation comparisons is with FMCs in place, both powered by Tecknet bateries.

 

My findings:

1. Removing the FMCs and reverting to straight Ethernet resulted in only a slight degradation in SQ. This was startling to me, as I remember this difference to be much larger. I can only speculate that all the other optimizations on the power and USB front have shifted the benefits of isolation, and reduced the impact from the network side. This is why you must evaluate these things in your own system!
   
2. Adding the Baaske to the straight Ethernet, I honestly could not tell the SQ difference. I really wanted this config to be equal to the FMCs, since there is an elegant simplicity to a passive isolator rather than 2xFMCs, batteries, PSes to charge the batteries, etc. Sadly, that was not to be.
   
3. I added the Baaske and the FMCs in series, i.e. switch > Baaske > FMC > fiber > FMC > Aries Mini. Again, I heard the same small SQ improvement as with the FMCs alone.
   

So, I didn't experience the improvements that @gstew (Greg in Mississippi) did. Again, these things are so contextual and system dependent!

 

For me, the Baaske will be put to good use to isolate my router from the output of the cable modem.

 

So it's all good, but no reorders for me.

 

Still hoping to hear back on those Etalon/Emo comparisons!

 

Rajiv in Austin

[fob69]

I can give you my feed back on EMO Vs FMCs :

 

- EMO seams for me to have a small effect on digital hardnesses.

 

- FMC has a strong effect on the digital hardnesses (but i will come back on the point), AND had a very strong effect IME on the sound stage that at once "unstick" the sound from the loudspeakers with great large 3D sound. I remove the FMC and re plug them several times, last time for several days, and i have have absolutely no doubt on this point.

 

About the digital hardnesses with the FMCs : optical bridge removes, changes, on modify those digital hardnesses, depending on the supply y use. I have a linear booster supply, a teknet supply, a 5V lion supply without regulator, a lifepo4 battery.

here are the results :

- teknet : the worse

- linear PS Booster : not so bad, much better than the teknet

- lifepo4 battery and 5v no regulator lion battery : the best

 

If i put the EMO between the FMC and the Streamer (Etalon), (with an ethernet connexion that is already supposed to be galvanicaly isolated), there is a very small improvement with the teknet battery, but it is from far still the worse.

 

My conclusion, IME :

- The galvanic isolation, by ethernet itself or EMO is not really efficient (i did not test the etalon isolator). Those galvanic isolation are IMO mostly made to stop low frequency and DC, but are not really efficient for high frequency noise. In don't think it is a surprise considering that it already difficult to provide an efficient isolation at 480MB/s on usb side... and ethernet is up to 1GB/s.

 

Considering there is a big fail on audio systems connected to ethernet (and the same in worse with Wifi because of the EMFs). optical bridge seams to be a good comprise. At the condition to get a excellent power supply for the downstream FMCs too if you don't want to replace the network noise with the FMC power supply noise.

 

Buying a 900$ power supply for player and a 30$ power supply with a switching regulator (tecknet) for the FMC IMO is a no sense.

Buying a 900$ power supply and not to have solution for ethernet noise is a problem.

Buying two 900$ power supply is a technical solution but a marketing positioning problem (this could explain why this tecknet switching regulator battery is several times recommended on this thread).

 

B.

[gstew]

Hey folks,

 

So I finally had some more time last night to try out the Baaske in various configurations.

 

Net net - for me, on my system, the Baaske does not make an audible impact. I stress the phrase on my system because of the context in the next paragraph.

 

As the OP, I've posted my personal journey toward overall isolation up-thread, in some detail. My current playback chain is in my signature, but this journey has taken many steps. I mention this because network isolation using fiber was the first step I took. At the time, replacing a straight Ethernet wire to my Aries Mini with a FMC-fiber-FMC isolator made a - what I remember to be - very noticeable improvement in SQ.

 

Since then, I've taken several more steps on the isolation journey, on both USB and power:

1. A dedicated 20A AC line
   
2. Added PS Audio PowerPort outlet
   
3. Added PS Audio P5 PerfectWave Regenerator to replace my Dectet
   
4. Upgraded power cables
   
5. Added W4S Recovery
   
6. Added Intona Industrial
   
7. Upgraded USB cables
   

The point of this clarification is to inform my latest findings while evaluating the Baaske for network isolation. The baseline for my network isolation comparisons is with FMCs in place, both powered by Tecknet bateries.

 

My findings:

<SNIP>

Rajiv in Austin

 

Rajiv,

 

Many thanks. AND I think you've done us all a great service in highlighting a key and critical set of truths about audio in general and computer audio in spades... the way things work together in a given system is a complex set of interactions and the impact of a change that produces positive results in one system MAY produce very different results in another.

 

The main commonality between our systems is that we "have computers on a network connected to devices producing music". Not much else is the same. And the things you've done since first adding the FMC leg to your system should have produced the results you heard (IMHO), especially the Intona Industrial.

 

In a similar way I am looking forward to trying the new R-Pi isolator HATs coming out in the near future. I just wish someone would come out with a uRendu equivalent to the R-Pi... equivalent HW that has the same HW architecture (for compatibility), but is designed and implemented from a digital audio perspective with good regulators and power and ground realms.

 

Finally, another thing I learn again and again is recheck your setup as you evolve it over time.... what was the cat's meow a few months ago may not be needed or even be a hindrance today!

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

P.S. And if you want to sell your Baaske, drop me a PM!

[austinpop]

I can give you my feed back on EMO Vs FMCs :

 

- EMO seams for me to have a small effect on digital hardnesses.

 

- FMC has a strong effect on the digital hardnesses (but i will come back on the point), AND had a very strong effect IME on the sound stage that at once "unstick" the sound from the loudspeakers with great large 3D sound. I remove the FMC and re plug them several times, last time for several days, and i have have absolutely no doubt on this point.

 

About the digital hardnesses with the FMCs : optical bridge removes, changes, on modify those digital hardnesses, depending on the supply y use. I have a linear booster supply, a teknet supply, a 5V lion supply without regulator, a lifepo4 battery.

here are the results :

- teknet : the worse

- linear PS Booster : not so bad, much better than the teknet

- lifepo4 battery and 5v no regulator lion battery : the best

 

If i put the EMO between the FMC and the Streamer (Etalon), (with an ethernet connexion that is already supposed to be galvanicaly isolated), there is a very small improvement with the teknet battery, but it is from far still the worse.

 

My conclusion, IME :

- The galvanic isolation, by ethernet itself or EMO is not really efficient (i did not test the etalon isolator). Those galvanic isolation are IMO mostly made to stop low frequency and DC, but are not really efficient for high frequency noise. In don't think it is a surprise considering that it already difficult to provide an efficient isolation at 480MB/s on usb side... and ethernet is up to 1GB/s.

 

Considering there is a big fail on audio systems connected to ethernet (and the same in worse with Wifi because of the EMFs). optical bridge seams to be a good comprise. At the condition to get a excellent power supply for the downstream FMCs too if you don't want to replace the network noise with the FMC power supply noise.

 

Buying a 900$ power supply for player and a 30$ power supply with a switching regulator (tecknet) for the FMC IMO is a no sense.

Buying a 900$ power supply and not to have solution for ethernet noise is a problem.

Buying two 900$ power supply is a technical solution but a marketing positioning problem (this could explain why this tecknet switching regulator battery is several times recommended on this thread).

 

B.

@fob69

 

Thanks very much for your comments. You made me think about what a passive isolator like Baaske is doing, and given it's at heart a transformer, your point regarding it's ineffectiveness with high frequency noise makes sense.

 

Your other point about the Tecknet batteries is also very well taken. I tried that route because it was cheap. I must say I was (am) surprised that it sounded better than the Jameco 9V LPS wart, despite my concern that the Tecknet's regulator was cheap and potentially noisy.

 

It has always been my intention to try feeding the downstream (DAC-side) FMC from a good power source. I'm still waiting for my Teralink X1/X2 U9VA LPS to get here. If I had deeper pockets, I'd put it on an LPS-1!