Why do WAV and FLAC files Sound Different

[ron spencer]

In my experience the only time I could hear a difference between FLAC and WAV was using an Oppo 103... the processor and memory on it doesn't hold a candle to a PC. Once I made the transition to more powerful renderers I moved from an all wav library to all flac as the tag functionality is poor/missing for wav

 

It doesn't need power to unpack...this was one of the main cool things about MLP way,way back in the day: you didn't need hardly any computer power to decode.

 

Why people seem to think that FLAC needs an 8 core Xeon processor with 64 GB of RAM to decode is beyond me.

[audiventory]

I don't see any foobar ABX tests posted here. Does anyone have any they could share showing a difference?

 

If you believe this then you could never have opened a zip file...again is there peer reviewed academic research on this?

 

Ron,

 

Here enough binary comparing as I suggested in one of my videos:

 

Source WAV > intermediate FLAC > target WAV.

 

I suppose, nobody deny binary identity of source and target WAV files.

 

Exists 2 hypothesis:

 

1. Additional load due FLAC unpacking give additional load to CPU and additional noise through air and electrical circuits.

 

2. This additional load is minor and drowns in total noise.

 

Additional noise in total noise picture due flac-unpacking CPU load may be measured on DAC output.

 

As for hearing as for visual (time-frequency spectral) foobar ABX tests providing, need capture audio direct from DAC output.

 

There need pro measurement ADC for both cases.

[r_w]

I don't believe it...

 

I said I suppose I can agree that poor computer/system/software might do a bad job of concurrent unpacking/playing.

 

... I also said on any purposeful player there shouldn't be a difference.

 

... I also said I haven't even bothered to compare WAV because FLAC sounds great to me...

 

I'm struggling to see the point of quoting me and coming back with that... really.

 

(being an owner of 3 software development companies, I've created and opened a few tens of thousands of zip files over the last 20 years).

 

 

 

If you believe this then you could never have opened a zip file...again is there peer reviewed academic research on this?

[davide256]

It doesn't need power to unpack...this was one of the main cool things about MLP way,way back in the day: you didn't need hardly any computer power to decode.

 

Why people seem to think that FLAC needs an 8 core Xeon processor with 64 GB of RAM to decode is beyond me.

Perhaps because those of us who frequent this board are more trained than mid-fi consumers... we are aware of when what we hear contradicts marketing propaganda and Bell labs based dogma of the 80's.

[YashN]

That's exactly what the people who wrote that article and some other people in this thread suggests, hence my post.

 

The article is an anomaly: the vast majority of people who are told some hear a difference in their system and who disbelieve it without trying come back with the file contents being bit-perfect as if real-time playback of these files (FLAC and WAV) through async USB is the same thing as doing looking at two file being identical through checksum or not.

[Don Hills]

Logically, WAV and FLAC versions of the same file should sound the same on playback.

Practically, in some cases they do not. The important lesson here is that the difference is not due to any intrinsic difference between WAV and FLAC - one is not better than the other. If you hear a real difference, the reason for it is that your system is defective.

[dean70]

Logically, WAV and FLAC versions of the same file should sound the same on playback.

Practically, in some cases they do not. The important lesson here is that the difference is not due to any intrinsic difference between WAV and FLAC - one is not better than the other. If you hear a real difference, the reason for it is that your system is defective.

 

Lol..or maybe the other way around

[esldude]

Perhaps because those of us who frequent this board are more trained than mid-fi consumers... we are aware of when what we hear contradicts marketing propaganda and Bell labs based dogma of the 80's. A̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶a̶w̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶p̶h̶y̶s̶i̶c̶s̶.̶

OH wait.

[sandyk]

If you hear a real difference, the reason for it is that your system is defective.

 

It's typical of many EEs to blame things on defective equipment designed by fellow qualified EEs, perhaps with far greater experience in that particular area than they have. It's not possible for any E.E. to have in depth experience right across the whole gamut of electronics .Most EEs tend to specialise in specific areas.

You are in effect calling your fellow E.E.s incompetent.

[Don Hills]

... You are in effect calling your fellow E.E.s incompetent.

 

Thank you. "Incompetent" is a more accurate description than "defective."

The classic example is someone who designs and manufactures a DAC that is audibly affected by noise and/or timing jitter on the USB interface. Given that there are cheap DACs on the market which do not exhibit such effects, what else would you call someone unable to meet this quite low bar?

[sandyk]

Thank you. "Incompetent" is a more accurate description than "defective."

The classic example is someone who designs and manufactures a DAC that is audibly affected by noise and/or timing jitter on the USB interface. Given that there are cheap DACs on the market which do not exhibit such effects, what else would you call someone unable to meet this quite low bar?

 

Don

For the benefit of the members that need to use the USB interface, please list a few of those cheap DACs that aren't affected by USB variables .

 

Alex

[4est]

Don

For the benefit of the members that need to use the USB interface, please list a few of those cheap DACs that aren't affected by USB variables .

 

Alex

 

Why the ODAC of course!

[Jud]

Why the ODAC of course!

 

Beat me to it.

[sandyk]

Why the ODAC of course!

 

Spoiled sports ! I wanted to see how many Don could name .

That's not many to choose from, and USB performance is far from the only criteria to choose from.

[Paul R]

... what else would you call someone unable to meet this quite low bar?

 

An accountant masquerading as a "high end" audio maker? A non-degreed wanna be glory/money seeking non-engineer? A huckster? Flim flam artist? Oh, the list is endless.

[davide256]

OH wait.

 

I do occasionally forget that others did not study physics as I did for a degree...

[yamamoto2002]

I don't believe the original story. I'm not sure, If the findings are all true, the sound quality of half-finished music player that completely skip metadata is more consistent sound characteristics than more full-featured music app?

[audiventory]

I don't believe the original story. I'm not sure, If the findings are all true, the sound quality of half-finished music player that completely skip metadata is more consistent sound characteristics than more full-featured music app?

 

Yamamoto2002,

 

If don't skip metadata and add it to signal there will clicks.

 

It is not transparency lost.

 

When data extracted from file, audio software read from begin of the file.

 

Usually data packed block-by-blocks. If next block(s) is unused, then it skiped on reading stage.

 

Therefore for properly working software metadata don't impact to sound.

[Jud]

I don't believe the original story. I'm not sure, If the findings are all true, the sound quality of half-finished music player that completely skip metadata is more consistent sound characteristics than more full-featured music app?

 

I've used mpd from the command line in FreeBSD and minimal installations of Linux, and players that offer filter/oversampling options sound much better to me. This doesn't mean each of these two things - minimizing any electronic disturbance of operation, and good filtering and upsampling - can't be important. It's just that the latter is intentional manipulation of sound, while the former is trying to avoid unintentional manipulation, and I'm guessing competent software engineers would be able to make greater changes on purpose.

[yamamoto2002]

I know the half-finished app that ignore DATA chunk size info of WAV and it does not recognize the last metadata part ("ID3 " chunk) just after the DATA chunk. The app produces loud static noise at the end of the music because it plays metadata part as a PCM data. In this case, metadata size difference can be heard as a loud static noise duration

[Don Hills]

Don

For the benefit of the members that need to use the USB interface, please list a few of those cheap DACs that aren't affected by USB variables .

 

Alex

 

I'm not in the market for one, my current DAC is Firewire. But if I was, Archimago has tested several cheap DACs. Based on his and other results, I'd start with a Chromecast Audio or a Schiit Fulla and work my way up.

[sandyk]

I'm not in the market for one, my current DAC is Firewire. But if I was, Archimago has tested several cheap DACs. Based on his and other results, I'd start with a Chromecast Audio or a Schiit Fulla and work my way up.

 

Given Archimago's track record of disputing almost everything Audiophiles report as sounding great, and his penchant for measurements being the be all, end all, that's hardly a recommendation that many members would take much notice of.

 

As far as In am concerned, Archimago is like Dennis or Mansr on steroids !

[mumsoft]

Until recently I believed that flac was just as good sounding as wav files. A dealer told me he preferred wav and explained why. He said that cymbals e.g. sound less well defined at the start as if something was missing. I asked my wife about this. She is a professional violin player and said that musicians talk about articulation.

Well the dealer suggested to listen to a simple jazz recording with open sounding percussion.

I ripped a CD of the Pierre Favre Ensemble on ECM called Fleuve. I ripped it to flac setting 5 and to wav using the same CD-ROM drive.

Than we listened several times to the opening track Mort d'Eurydice.

We both found the wav version sounding completer and better articulating indeed.

Later that week I redownloaded albums from Qobuz in wav. I consider them better sounding than flac. If I now listen to a flac album I miss something. I do not miss anything with dsd or mqa.

 

Robert-Jan

 

Hi RJ, you have a pm. Eh, several actually.

 

Marc

[Ralf11]

Doesn't make any sense at all to me. They should sound exactly the same (and I am sure they would to me). I'm sticking with Apple Lossless and flac since I can't hear anything wrong with them.

 

me too

 

but... I have to ask if the computer treats them differently when it transmits them across the network?

[Jud]

me too

 

but... I have to ask if the computer treats them differently when it transmits them across the network?

 

Yes, it takes less time transmitting the compressed flac file.