Audirvana Plus 2.5.1 with PCM->DSD Conversion

[astrostar59]

I think a lot of the DSD end quality in your own DAC is down to how well that implementation is in the DAC. The Lampizator DACs for example seem to sound amazing on DSD so they clearly have a good (non chip in their case) DSD engine. Others DACs still sound best in PCM but claim to do DSD. I wonder if they are simply converting back to PCM? Complicated.

[Jud]

I think a lot of the DSD end quality in your own DAC is down to how well that implementation is in the DAC. The Lampizator DACs for example seem to sound amazing on DSD so they clearly have a good (non chip in their case) DSD engine. Others DACs still sound best in PCM but claim to do DSD. I wonder if they are simply converting back to PCM? Complicated.

 

I can't think of any DAC that converts back to PCM. The vast majority of DACs internally convert from PCM to higher rate PCM and then to a DSD-like low-bit MHz sample rate bitstream. The idea of converting to DSD prior to the DAC is that the computer software may do this better than what's inside the DAC.

 

Be careful when you talk about "DSD engine." The Lampis and T+A do a simple conversion *from* DSD to analog. This isn't the conversion from PCM to DSD, but the following step.

[astrostar59]

HiPass Filter?

I have an NOS tubed DAC without a brick wall filter and it 'may' pass high frequency hash beyond the audible frequency band. This according to some in the CD industry can affect the power amplifier down stream and could get passed on to the speakers.

 

My question, is there a high pass filter in Audirvana+ that can kill all signal above say 20K?

 

I have looked at the Apple AU units but can't see an appropriate filter.

[mansr]

I can't think of any DAC that converts back to PCM. The vast majority of DACs internally convert from PCM to higher rate PCM and then to a DSD-like low-bit MHz sample rate bitstream. The idea of converting to DSD prior to the DAC is that the computer software may do this better than what's inside the DAC.

 

Be careful when you talk about "DSD engine." The Lampis and T+A do a simple conversion *from* DSD to analog. This isn't the conversion from PCM to DSD, but the following step.

 

Some DAC chips, e.g. ESS Sabre and AKM, low-pass filter DSD digitally and process the result more or less like they would PCM input. Some DAC units, can't recall one off the top of my head, convert DSD to some PCM or other in a DSP prior to the actual DAC chip.

[astrostar59]

Like I said - complicated. IMO many DACs are doing whatever suits on a cost v performance vector. The better manufacturers would go back to the drawing board and design a DSD section to stay as pure as possible. In the last 15 years of DAC swops and demos I found the less messing with the signal the better.

[Jud]

HiPass Filter?

I have an NOS tubed DAC without a brick wall filter and it 'may' pass high frequency hash beyond the audible frequency band. This according to some in the CD industry can affect the power amplifier down stream and could get passed on to the speakers.

 

My question, is there a high pass filter in Audirvana+ that can kill all signal above say 20K?

 

I have looked at the Apple AU units but can't see an appropriate filter.

 

You have things turned around. "High pass" filters would allow the high frequency hash through (pass rather than block the highs, so "high pass").

 

What you want, I would think, is sample rate conversion to push noise as far as possible into the ultrasonic range. What DAC do you have?

[Jud]

You have things turned around. "High pass" filters would allow the high frequency hash through (pass rather than block the highs, so "high pass").

 

What you want, I would think, is sample rate conversion to push noise as far as possible into the ultrasonic range. What DAC do you have?

 

If your profile is still accurate, you've got an Audio Note 4.1 DAC. In that DAC, the output transformers provide the low-pass filtering, but I'm guessing there will be distortion from ultrasonics aliasing back into the audio band, especially at 16/44.1 input resolution. As nearly as I can tell from a little reading, this DAC will also accept 24/96 input. You could try upsampling to 24/96 with A+ to see if you like it any better than 16/44.1. If not, fine - whatever you prefer.

[Miska]

Some DAC chips, e.g. ESS Sabre and AKM, low-pass filter DSD digitally and process the result more or less like they would PCM input.

 

ESS Sabre runs DSD through 3rd order IIR to add some bits and feeds the result to the conversion stage. No rate conversion is performed.

 

AKM has pass-through option to pass DSD straight to the conversion stage with two SCF stage cut-off settings:

 

Cirrus Logic also has Direct DSD mode:

 

Wolfson has similar Direct DSD mode.

 

BB/TI feeds DSD data straight to the analog FIR stage and has four different element arrangement options with different roll-offs.

[beetlesonique]

Personal preferences and systems differ. Not surprising. Seek reasonable quality equipment for your price range, try to minimize noise/distortion and maximize imaging and good frequency response with your home setup, and from there it's all up to what you like. No tricks, just whatever makes you happy when you listen to music.

 

Thanks.

 

And so the never-ending quest for Audio Heaven continues. :-)

[copy_of_a]

DSD takes away some of the rough edges. The sound is smoother, but also less 3D, if that's a correct description and a bit dull. It seems that voices and instruments are pushed back in to the speaker where as with the non upsampled signal they are right up your nose.

I have to agree... as far as Audirvana+ goes. For my taste A+ with the newly built-in DSD-engine sounds a bit "compressed" (independant of the filter used). Upsampling to DSD is extremely processor-intensive in A+ ... and I think this is the reason the sound is a bit recessed. On the other hand upsampling to DSD with HQPlayer sounds extremely detailed (still somewhat 'smooth', but in a positive way and without losing 3D or sparkling texture). Personally I think A+ still needs some work but the issue is not related to DSD vs. PCM or to upsamling vs. non-upsampling... IMHO ...

[edwardsean]

Hi. For those of you have upgraded to the Sierra Beta. Have you gotten A+ to work in Direct Mode. Damien doesn't recommend upgrading for now, but I'm already there and would rather not roll back.

 

I copied an old El Cap IOAudioFamily.kext version 203.7 but A+ still won't access Direct Mode. If someone has a kext that works with Sierra would you mind PMing me?

 

Thanks!

[RunHomeSlow]

Hi. For those of you have upgraded to the Sierra Beta. Have you gotten A+ to work in Direct Mode. Damien doesn't recommend upgrading for now, but I'm already there and would rather not roll back.

 

I copied an old El Cap IOAudioFamily.kext version 203.7 but A+ still won't access Direct Mode. If someone has a kext that works with Sierra would you mind PMing me?

 

Thanks!

 

B6 like all the others for Sierra do not work for me. and i don't have that .kext :-)

[RunHomeSlow]

Don't know if Damien already found a solution in the upcoming 2.6 update... fingers crossed :-)

[edwardsean]

I hope so too, but it seems like Apple has made it very complex and challenging. if someone has got it working please do post.

[AudioDoctor]

B6 like all the others for Sierra do not work for me. and i don't have that .kext :-)

 

Why not?

[RunHomeSlow]

Why not?

 

 

a working one...

[edwardsean]

Hey guys. Well, I put back the Sierra IOAudioFamily.kext version 205.11 and now the audio system is completely knocked out. I have nothing under audio outputs or audio midi. I've tried replacing this extension numerous times with SIP enabled and disabled but no joy. Has anyone run into this?

[AudioDoctor]

Why do you guys mess with your audio servers this way? MacOS Sierra is still in Beta, which means BUGGY.

[AudioDoctor]

a working one...

 

 

DO you not have a backup? And why do you think it will work?

[RunHomeSlow]

DO you not have a backup? And why do you think it will work?

 

 

I just answered edwardsean question earlier... i have backups of 10.11.6 but i don't care for not using Direct Mode for a short time if Damien don't find the answer... apart from Direct Mode, all is good an stable with Sierra for me.

[rickca]

You just need to believe.

[edwardsean]

Just in case anyone tries to replace the IOAudioFamily.kext and runs into problems like me: I just reinstalled Sierra and audio was back up and running like normal. Took about 30mins, and it kept all my data intact. (A new beta was just released which may or may not have fixed the problem at any rate.)

 

So, as it is, if anyone does upgrade to Sierra understand that you will lose Direct Mode until Damien is able to get around the kernel extension. Also, trying to replace the kext in the meanwhile seems to be a dicey proposition so i wouldn't recommend it.

 

Last thing is, if I load a track without DM and then enable DM the following tracks do load with DM enabled. I don't think this means that DM is functioning but it would be great if this were a functional workaround.

[beetlesonique]

I have to agree... as far as Audirvana+ goes. For my taste A+ with the newly built-in DSD-engine sounds a bit "compressed" (independant of the filter used). Upsampling to DSD is extremely processor-intensive in A+ ... and I think this is the reason the sound is a bit recessed. On the other hand upsampling to DSD with HQPlayer sounds extremely detailed (still somewhat 'smooth', but in a positive way and without losing 3D or sparkling texture). Personally I think A+ still needs some work but the issue is not related to DSD vs. PCM or to upsamling vs. non-upsampling... IMHO ...

 

That sounds like a very reasonable explanation to me. I will give HQplayer definitely a try, although it would be nice if A+'s DSD conversion will get les CPU intensive in the future.

[mugsy]

There seem to be so many Audirvana threads here now I hope I'm putting this into the correct one (!).

 

Audirvana is driving me nuts at the moment with it often starts indexing the library (even when I haven't changed anything!) when I start the program. I've tried deleting the database and starting from scratch, but this is a pain as I have around 2TB music and it takes a long time to rebuild the database, and after a short while I still get that bloody blue line indicating it's indexing again when I start the program.

 

The second annoyance is when it's doing this indexing, it will keep flipping open the last opened genre 'field'. So trying to look for something you wish to play when the screen keeps jumping back to the last opened 'field' whilst indexing is incredibly frustrating. To be honest I find myself going back to plain iTunes more and more now as it just works without any of these problems. I had these problems when I first purchased Audirvana over two years back and I find it stunning they haven't been fixed yet! I love its sound when all is well, but these little bugs are driving me away from it. Are they ever going to be fixed?

 

- John

[astrostar59]

There seem to be so many Audirvana threads here now I hope I'm putting this into the correct one (!).

 

Audirvana is driving me nuts at the moment with it often starts indexing the library (even when I haven't changed anything!) when I start the program. I've tried deleting the database and starting from scratch, but this is a pain as I have around 2TB music and it takes a long time to rebuild the database, and after a short while I still get that bloody blue line indicating it's indexing again when I start the program.

 

The second annoyance is when it's doing this indexing, it will keep flipping open the last opened genre 'field'. So trying to look for something you wish to play when the screen keeps jumping back to the last opened 'field' whilst indexing is incredibly frustrating. To be honest I find myself going back to plain iTunes more and more now as it just works without any of these problems. I had these problems when I first purchased Audirvana over two years back and I find it stunning they haven't been fixed yet! I love its sound when all is well, but these little bugs are driving me away from it. Are they ever going to be fixed?

 

- John

You can turn off 'auto' indexing so you decide when to update. Are you using the latest version of iTunes for the DB and importing?