ECdesigns

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

12 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

But what about DAPI when the only one input which is allowed is SPDIF or Toslink? So all Inputs must be converted to SPDIF or Toslink? Can someone shed some light on what then is so special about DAPI?

Thanks

 

Matt

 

What is special is that it improves on the signal that is fed to the DAC, and according to John offers real source insensitivity. Don't ask me how! It is up to them to explain, and chances are none of us would understand anyway 😅

 

Source insensitivity means we don't care if there is only a toslink input, any source can be easily converted to spdif. 

 

That is what I understand. 

 

I just suggested to Gordon Brown that he join the forum to answer questions 😉

[matthias]

1 minute ago, hopkins said:

I just suggested to Gordon Brown that he join the forum to answer questions 😉

 

At least it would be nice if they answer the questions on diyaudio in due time.

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

5 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

At least it would be nice if they answer the questions on diyaudio in due time.

 

Matt

 

It is what it is. Happy holidays :)

[Varinder]

I think we can also request them to take our U192 / U96 and DAC 96 and install the same in one box with the new DAPI interface and we will pay for them the charges incurred in that .. I think to us diehard ecdesigns fans they should be generous enough to provide that 

[Huubster]

Wow, I'm a bit surprised by these kind of discussions and statements...

 

I think we should be very thankful for what EC Designs already did for us audiophiles, while enjoying the heck out of the Fractal stuff. All the rest is something to look out for, please be patient and let them do their thing.

 

I'm not saying that we as a community cannot give feedback, but please let EC Designs decide what to do or not to do..

[Varinder]

42 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

What is special is that it improves on the signal that is fed to the DAC, and according to John offers real source insensitivity. Don't ask me how! It is up to them to explain, and chances are none of us would understand anyway 😅

 

Source insensitivity means we don't care if there is only a toslink input, any source can be easily converted to spdif. 

 

That is what I understand. 

 

I just suggested to Gordon Brown that he join the forum to answer questions 😉

Sir would you clarify .. I am bit confused .. This new box will include U96 and U192 also or that it will have DAC with only DAPI ...And we could use these transports ( U192and U96) externally with this dac

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

23 minutes ago, Varinder said:

Sir would you clarify .. I am bit confused .. This new box will include U96 and U192 also or that it will have DAC with only DAPI ...And we could use these transports ( U192and U96) externally with this dac

 

Hi, once again, this is just my understanding, but what Gordon mentioned was "DAC with only DAPI". As I said, basically the same thing as today, except the input changes slightly. So you can keep the U192 + UPL and choose to use those with this new version of the DAC. Or you can use any other source which can output an optical spdif signal (CD player, other computer with a optical output, etc...).  He mentions they will also offer a small USB/spdif converter, which is fine for people who do not already have the U192 (or plan on continuing to use the UPL, as I will).

 

I think what creates confusion is that there will also be the PowerDAC, with basically the same solution (DAPI+Fractal DAC) but with multiple inputs offered (all converted to optical "internally") - so they will have modules that you can use to plug directly a USB cable, and it will convert to spdif (essentially what the U192 does today, but "built in" to the PowerDAC). Obviously, the PowerDAC will also include the "amplification" aspect as well.

 

If my understanding is correct, you will then have the choice to keep your current amplification, and upgrade the DAC only, or go all the way with the PowerDAC, or get both :) What's not to like ? 

 

As Huubster mentioned, any discussion of pricing/upgrading is really premature (and I have zero info concerning this, or the timeline). We should let ECD finalize their stuff and enjoy what we have for the time being.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

I subscribe to the DIYAudio thread, and recieved a notification that John just posted some information on their new development: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/79452-building-ultimate-nos-dac-using-tda1541a-post6462689.html

 

This is consistent with what was explained above, and provides more technical detail on how it is achieved.

Exciting stuff! 

[matthias]

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

I subscribe to the DIYAudio thread, and recieved a notification that John just posted some information on their new development: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/79452-building-ultimate-nos-dac-using-tda1541a-post6462689.html

 

This is consistent with what was explained above, and provides more technical detail on how it is achieved.

Exciting stuff! 

 

Indeed, the ElectroTOS low jitter protocol seems no longer necessary and SPDIF needs no clock signals similar to USB.

Very curious about upcoming listening impressions.

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

8 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Indeed, the ElectroTOS low jitter protocol seems no longer necessary and SPDIF needs no clock signals similar to USB.

Very curious about upcoming listening impressions.

 

Matt

 

Yes, you may want to hold off on purchasing the Taiko Extreme 😃 (just pulling your leg...).

 

[tims]

I'm interested in the DAPI/Fractal DAC combo (who wouldn't be?🙂). I guess there is no chance that they will offer to retrofit DAPI into the existing Fractal DAC (or if it's even possible?) so will wait for feedback from others on how good it is once available and decide then. 

Always good to have a spare Fractal DAC, right😉?

[Gavin1977]

U192 and Fractal DAC are now up and running in my system.

 

Can people comment on any perceived burn-in?

 

I'm presently running the Fractal DAC directly into my power amps and using software based volume control.

 

Whilst I'm awaiting my pre-amp to arrive (Audio-gd Master 9), can anyone comment on the effect of adding in a pre-amp?

 

To me the lower registers of the Fractal DAC, whilst very taught and accurate, aren't very fleshed out when directly driving my power amps.  Might be an impedance issue.  Would welcome opinion. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

28 minutes ago, Gavin1977 said:

U192 and Fractal DAC are now up and running in my system.

 

Can people comment on any perceived burn-in?

 

I'm presently running the Fractal DAC directly into my power amps and using software based volume control.

 

Whilst I'm awaiting my pre-amp to arrive (Audio-gd Master 9), can anyone comment on the effect of adding in a pre-amp?

 

To me the lower registers of the Fractal DAC, whilst very taught and accurate, aren't very fleshed out when directly driving my power amps.  Might be an impedance issue.  Would welcome opinion. 

 

You are using software volume control, and also a digital crossover for your speakers (if your profile is up to date - nice speakers BTW). I don't think you will find many ECD users in that configuration.  Maybe you should ask ECD about impedance matching ? As for burn-in, difficult to answer, but I would tend to think that it would be minimal on the U192 and DAC.

[Gavin1977]

Founds part of the answer... the DA96 has 375 Ohm output impedance, my existing T+A DAC 8 DSD has 22 ohms output impedance.

 

Therefore a preamp should help the lower registers, the Master 9 I have on order has an output impedance of 1 ohm - so should drive anything well.

 

Thanks

[numlog]

375 is not that high, its the impedance ratio between input and output that's relevant.

Are you are using that active crossover? the input impedance is gonna very high from the op amps so a preamp is unlikely to improve things and you'll lose transparency with all the added circuitry(AudioGD stuff is awful for transparency IME), even those power chip amps are gonna have fairly high input impedance relative to the fractal for direct drive... 

 

[Norton]

2 hours ago, Gavin1977 said:

To me the lower registers of the Fractal DAC, whilst very taught and accurate, aren't very fleshed out

I use the Fractal with a pre amp and, compared with ESS DACs (my Oppo 205 or Resonessence Mirus) to me the sound is a little “soft”, lacking some of the slam I’m used to in orchestral crescendos. I know some ECD owners will disagree with me on this impression and of course it may simply be that it is the Fractal which is actually the more accurate in it’s presentation.  On the other hand it may indicate that the Fractal could benefit from a beefier PS.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

32 minutes ago, Norton said:

I use the Fractal with a pre amp and, compared with ESS DACs (my Oppo 205 or Resonessence Mirus) to me the sound is a little “soft”, lacking some of the slam I’m used to in orchestral crescendos. I know some ECD owners will disagree with me on this impression and of course it may simply be that it is the Fractal which is actually the more accurate in it’s presentation.  On the other hand it may indicate that the Fractal could benefit from a beefier PS.

 

Did you make sure you compared the two at the same volume? 

[Norton]

17 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

Did you make sure you compared the two at the same volume? 

I’m pretty sensitive to listening levels, so yes AFAIK- I’ve always adjusted vol when switching to the Fractal.  In fact I’d say that, IME, the Fractal’s “softness” is actually more pronounced as you increase volume.  I should also add though that even with this observation, out of the three the Fractal/UPL is easily my  preference for serious listening.

[realDHT]

2 hours ago, numlog said:

375 is not that high, its the impedance ratio between input and output that's relevant.

Are you are using that active crossover? the input impedance is gonna very high from the op amps so a preamp is unlikely to improve things and you'll lose transparency with all the added circuitry(AudioGD stuff is awful for transparency IME), even those power chip amps are gonna have fairly high input impedance relative to the fractal for direct drive... 

 

I agree, the LX521 ASP has 100k input impedance (in the worst case 10k if it is an early version). The difference of 1 ohm, 22 ohm or 375 ohm output impedance should not be that relevant in this context. BTW I have listened a lot to almost the same system during the latest days..LX521 with ASP, driven by Hypex NCore using Fractal dac + UPL96 as front end. The bass is fantastic..although the sound in the upper range was improved IMHO with a good valve amp for the tweeter and upper midrange drivers (althought sounding very good with the NCore as well) 

[realDHT]

53 minutes ago, Norton said:

I use the Fractal with a pre amp and, compared with ESS DACs (my Oppo 205 or Resonessence Mirus) to me the sound is a little “soft”, lacking some of the slam I’m used to in orchestral crescendos. I know some ECD owners will disagree with me on this impression and of course it may simply be that it is the Fractal which is actually the more accurate in it’s presentation.  On the other hand it may indicate that the Fractal could benefit from a beefier PS.

I agree with this also. Having had an ESS dac previosly and comparing,I perceived the Fractal as having somewhat less 'impact/slam/whatever', but the ESS much more harsh, much less 'musical' and involving, so I do think the Fractal is the one that is more true to what is actually on the recording.   

[Gavin1977]

1 hour ago, realDHT said:

I agree, the LX521 ASP has 100k input impedance (in the worst case 10k if it is an early version). The difference of 1 ohm, 22 ohm or 375 ohm output impedance should not be that relevant in this context. BTW I have listened a lot to almost the same system during the latest days..LX521 with ASP, driven by Hypex NCore using Fractal dac + UPL96 as front end. The bass is fantastic..although the sound in the upper range was improved IMHO with a good valve amp for the tweeter and upper midrange drivers (althought sounding very good with the NCore as well) 

I have the older ASP.  Since the general rule of thumb is for the load (amp) input impedance to be at least 10 times higher than the source (preamp/DAC) output impedance to provide a suitably flat frequency response, they you’re right, it should be fine.

 

I find the bass registers powerful and well defined, just not as full sounding.  Mind you this is only after a couple of hours listening.  Will be interesting what the preamp brings to the party.

[realDHT]

3 minutes ago, Gavin1977 said:

I have the older ASP.  I always thought the general rule of thumb is for the load (amp) input impedance to be at least 10 times higher than the source (preamp/DAC) output impedance to provide a suitably flat frequency response.

Yep a good rule of thumb, In this case the load is the ASP, so the load impedance (10k) is almost 30 times higher than the source (375). Anyhow it will be interesting to hear if you will prefer the sound with the preamp or not.

 

  

[matthias]

2 hours ago, Norton said:

I use the Fractal with a pre amp and, compared with ESS DACs (my Oppo 205 or Resonessence Mirus) to me the sound is a little “soft”, lacking some of the slam I’m used to in orchestral crescendos. I know some ECD owners will disagree with me on this impression and of course it may simply be that it is the Fractal which is actually the more accurate in it’s presentation.  On the other hand it may indicate that the Fractal could benefit from a beefier PS.

 

I would never agree that the lack of slam is more accurate, so did you try a beefier PS with the Fractal?

Thanks

 

Matt

[Huubster]

The lack of slam sounds like a source issue to me. When I use the U192 with my laptop or desktop (so nothing audiophile), all life is sucked out of the music, no dynamics, no staging, nothing is left from the great sound it is able to generate. Using my Innuos with a Paul Hynes brings it up to the level I'm enjoying everyday, with slam in spades.. And I'm using stock PSU from ECDesigns on the DAC. 

[matthias]

11 minutes ago, Huubster said:

The lack of slam sounds like a source issue to me. When I use the U192 with my laptop or desktop (so nothing audiophile), all life is sucked out of the music, no dynamics, no staging, nothing is left from the great sound it is able to generate. Using my Innuos with a Paul Hynes brings it up to the level I'm enjoying everyday, with slam in spades.. And I'm using stock PSU from ECDesigns on the DAC. 

 

Maybe, but what about the source issue when other DACs with the same laptop deliver the slam?

BTW, ECD seem to run their devices with laptops (from Apple) as well.

 

Matt