ECdesigns

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

29 minutes ago, matthias said:

Fresh from diyaudio:

 

"The S/PDIF DAPI receiver for the Fractal PowerDAC SE offers 4 selectable Toslink inputs and supports 44.1/16 ... 192/24 (limit for S/PDIF 24 bit stereo).

The S/PDIF receiver for the small and affordable Fractal PowerDAC E offers one Toslink input and supports 44.1/16 ... 192/24."

 

Does that mean that only the Fractal PowerDAC SE has the DAPI receiver?

 

Matt

 

Hi, 

 

Thanks. I assume they will both use the same input board (DAPI) but you could reply and ask him to confirm? Would be interesting to know, even if this may all still be some time away from production.

 

EDIT: he did confirm this in a previous answer on DIYAudio:

 

Your question:

Would it make sense to launch a one-box-solution (DAPI and FractalDAC in one case)?

 

His answer:

Yes, we plan to offer an affordable medium power entry level version that is primarily intended to be used with (pre) amps but is powerful enough to directly drive 32 ... 600 Ohm headphones. Prototype is already up and running and is being thoroughly tested

 

 

Vis à vis your initial question (on DIYAudio), I don't see the lack of USB input as a handicap. What they explained is that the optical input will (finally) be immune to the source, so even a basic USB to optical converter (powered by the USB) will suffice. Perhaps even a Chromecast will do the trick ? Will be fun to try all this. For those who already have the U192, I assume it will work in the "standard mode" (removing the jumper in the back).

 

Of course, as mentioned above, this means max 24/192. But that's another story - DSD compatibility has never been their objective, and I imagine they have good reasons to dismiss it. 

 

 

[matthias]

35 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Vis à vis your initial question (on DIYAudio), I don't see the lack of USB input as a handicap. What they explained is that the optical input will (finally) be immune to the source, so even a basic USB to optical converter (powered by the USB) will suffice. Perhaps even a Chromecast will do the trick ? Will be fun to try all this. For those who already have the U192, I assume it will work in the "standard mode" (removing the jumper in the back).

 

They did not answer my question only Gavins so I would Interpret no USB Input what I think is a pity. In daily life it is much more convenient to connect from USB out to USB in and not via Toslink. They could anyway implement their beloved Toslink connection inside the case where it would be much more protected. Further it makes no sense to buy an extra DDC from USB to Toslink. I simply can not understand the decision to have four Toslink Inputs.

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

52 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

They did not answer my question only Gavins so I would Interpret no USB Input what I think is a pity. In daily life it is much more convenient to connect from USB out to USB in and not via Toslink. They could anyway implement their beloved Toslink connection inside the case where it would be much more protected. Further it makes no sense to buy an extra DDC from USB to Toslink. I simply can not understand the decision to have four Toslink Inputs.

 

Matt

 

My guess is that for the "entry" DAC they want to keep it simple and affordable, so a single input, and Toslink makes sense in that case. 

 

For the speaker unit, I think they had mentioned input modules. Maybe that is still what they have in mind, and are just referring to toslink inputs on the actual board? Otherwise, I do agree with you that 4 toslink inputs on an equipment that is supposed to replace everything but the source is not what you would expect. You can follow this up with them on DIYAudio? 

[seeteeyou]

Portta 4 in 2 Out SPDIF/Toslink Digital Optical Matrix 4x2 Audio Switch Splitter Matrix with IR Control Support LPCM CH2.0 DTS Dolby Lossless Signal Transmission up to 40m for S3 DVD Player Amplifier
https://www.amazon.com/Portta-Splitter-Lossless-Transmission-Amplifier/dp/B00SX0QK8A

 

4 Port Toslink Switch, Portta 4x1 SPDIF Optical Digital Audio Switcher Box with IR Remote Control for Apple TV, PS4, Xbox, Blu-ray Player, Sound Bar, Receiver, Speakers, DVD, Amplifier

https://www.amazon.com/Portta-Digital-Optical-Switcher-Toslink/dp/B01A89OEUY

Quote

【Long Distance Transmission】Support transmission distance up to 40m via optical fiber cable loss less than 0.2 dbm and support sampling frequency up to 96 KHz.

 

1×4 Optical Audio Splitter

http://en.cypress.com.tw/store/catalog/app/product/DCT-28/1×4-Optical-Audio-Splitter

Quote

Supports S/PDIF sampling rates of 32 kHz to 192kHz

 

Active 1 x 4 Toslink Digital Audio Switcher \ Splitter

https://www.store.calrad.com/40-tl4

Quote

Supports 2CH LPCM audio signals with sampling rates of 32khz -192khz.

 

If DAPI receiver for the small and affordable version were actually proven to achieve the "miracle" of absolute + 100% + reproducible immunity to every single source (i.e. that might never happen but never say never?) on the planet, having a single Toslink input should be no big deal since we'll simply get some of the cheapest Toslink splitters on Earth as shown above.

 

In addition, could that bright and shiny immunity also cover ground loops and leakage current loops etc. as mentioned below?

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/38408-hunt-for-rfi-offenders/?tab=comments#comment-775475

 

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade by any means, sometimes realistic expectations could very well save us from unnecessary disappointments IMHO.

 

Of course everything should be nothing more than speculations at this stage, we'll find out if the seemingly impossible nut to crack were met with a miraculous nut cracker or not.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

7 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

If DAPI receiver for the small and affordable version were actually proven to achieve the "miracle" of absolute + 100% + reproducible immunity to every single source (i.e. that might never happen but never say never?) on the planet, having a single Toslink input should be no big deal since we'll simply get some of the cheapest Toslink splitters on Earth as shown above.

 

In addition, could that bright and shiny immunity also cover ground loops and leakage current loops etc. as mentioned below?

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/38408-hunt-for-rfi-offenders/?tab=comments#comment-775475

 

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade by any means, sometimes realistic expectations could very well save us from unnecessary disappointments IMHO.

 

Of course everything should be nothing more than speculations at this stage, we'll find out if the seemingly impossible nut to crack were met with a miraculous nut cracker or not.

 

You are right to be cautious. I am too. After all, ECD did claim before they had achieved this (with the U192) only to realize after, as we all did, that we were not quite there yet. That being said, they are earnest and serious about what they do, and there always have been improvements, so I trust that the new units will offer higher quality sound (and added "convenience").

[murphythecat87]

30 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

You are right to be cautious. I am too. After all, ECD did claim before they had achieved this (with the U192) only to realize after, as we all did, that we were not quite there yet. That being said, they are earnest and serious about what they do, and there always have been improvements, so I trust that the new units will offer higher quality sound (and added "convenience").

ive been buying ECD dac since the sd player sd-1 back in 2015? they claimed the same thing then that they do today "we have finally acheived the pinnacle and our search is over"...the powerdac will be yet another step in ECD developments. 

 

 

after reading john's post at diyaudio, it seems that the DAPI doesnt replace the need for the U192ETL. so the chain will be U192ETL into Powerdac into headphones/speakers. oh well!

[matthias]

15 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

You are right to be cautious. I am too. After all, ECD did claim before they had achieved this (with the U192) only to realize after, as we all did, that we were not quite there yet. That being said, they are earnest and serious about what they do, and there always have been improvements, so I trust that the new units will offer higher quality sound (and added "convenience").

 

I am cautious as well. I appreciate the efforts they make to get digital right but some things appear strange to me.

In the end the proof is in the listening with different sources. I am curious but other mothers have also beautiful daughters 😀

 

Matt

[matthias]

13 minutes ago, murphythecat87 said:

iafter reading john's post at diyaudio, it seems that the DAPI doesnt replace the need for the U192ETL. so the chain will be U192ETL into Powerdac into headphones/speakers. oh well!

 

The DAPI does not replace the USB interface but they could put the U192 into the PowerDAC case to have a nice one box solution with USB input.

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

26 minutes ago, murphythecat87 said:

ive been buying ECD dac since the sd player sd-1 back in 2015? they claimed the same thing then that they do today "we have finally acheived the pinnacle and our search is over"...the powerdac will be yet another step in ECD developments. 

 

 

after reading john's post at diyaudio, it seems that the DAPI doesnt replace the need for the U192ETL. so the chain will be U192ETL into Powerdac into headphones/speakers. oh well!

 

I forget, have you heard the Fractal + UPL? 

[matthias]

14 hours ago, hopkins said:

You can follow this up with them on DIYAudio? 

 

Done for my part.

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

On 1/17/2021 at 4:46 PM, matthias said:

 

Done for my part.

 

Matt

 

Thanks. I just read John's reply on DIYAudio. If they provide a small bus-powered USB/Toslink converter it will be functionally equivalent to having a USB input. I see no problem here. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

The real issue, IMO, will be for people who also use analog sources (I do). For those, it will mean either:

 

A - keep your current amplification, upgrade to the new entry-level DAC/DAPI, and keep all your current sources

 

B - keep your current amplification for analog sources, and get a PowerDAC for digital only (PC, CD player, TV...). You'll nead a speaker switch. 

 

C- replace your current amplification + DAC with the PowerDAC and get an ADC for your analog sources. 

 

 

[matthias]

33 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Thanks. I just read John's reply on DIYAudio. If they provide a small bus-powered USB/Toslink converter it will be functionally equivalent to having a USB input. I see no problem here. 

 

Yes, I read it too. It makes absolutely sense from their design perspective, but the proof is in the listening.

 

Matt

[matthias]

21 minutes ago, hopkins said:

C- replace your current amplification + DAC with the PowerDAC and get an ADC for your analog sources. 

 

This is what even former analog hardliners like Linn are doing, they do ADC for the cartridge output even before the RIAA stage.

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Those who don't have a DIYAudio account will not be able to see the graph that John posted, illustrating the bandwidth requirement for the various types of transmissions, and the associated crosstalk. So here it is:

 

 

To quote him: "Larger data bandwidth -> more high frequency noise enters the DAC (fused to the data signal, must enter the DAC to retrieve contained data) and the easier this noise spreads across the DAC (stray capacitances and parasitics)."

 

So what the DAPI does is take an incoming Toslink (max 192KHz sample rate) and converts it to a low bandwidth signal (200 KHz) prior to reaching the DAC stage. Note that the current "bandwidth limiter" solution build into the U192 and UPL restricts the bandwidth to 20 Mhz, but it still uses the ElectroTOS connection to the DAC, which has a higher bandwidth. The DAPI also  buffers the data before reclocking it. This is why jitter in the Toslink transmission becomes a non-issue. Anyway, all too complex for my small brain, but eager to test it !

 

[seeteeyou]

Personally I believe that excluding USB input should be fine.

 

If they're able to incorporate a VERY large buffer inside DAPI, it's so much easier to cut off USB data connection + switch off USB bus power via software

 

https://github.com/mvp/uhubctl

 

IMHO it should bring us even closer to our ultimate goal, namely immunity to the source since we're literally "pulling the plug" in a sense that (almost?) nothing is fed to DAPI until the USB port is turned back on. And then it's also quite similar to the playback of vinyl when we're no longer able to flip through the playlist all the time, sometimes the paradox of choice could very well distract us from enjoying the experience whenever we're focusing so much on quantity instead of quality.

 

(Turning off / on Toslink all the time might not be such a good idea for the longevity of PowerDAC, while a Toslink switcher might / might not affect the immunity.)

 

Even if DAPI weren't immune to the source at all, it's gonna be a blessing to be able to pick a specific USB→Toslink DDC just in case they're coming up with something even better than XMOS and U-hear in the future

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-279#post-698138

Quote

There is subsequent talk about a "TAS driver", which is our own Taiko branded USB driver, which allows (sound quality enhancing) functionality currently only supported by XMOS and U-hear controllers (which spans the majority of DAC interfaces).

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

I think you may be misunderstanding how this buffer is used in ECD's solution (essentially to transform the incoming spdif signal). A solution where you cut-off USB by buffering a lot of data still does not address the fact that most DACs are using I2S internally (with high bandwidth) to transfer all this data throughout all the clocking/conversion steps - that's what I understand. It's not just about isolating the source... 

[Michael L]

19 hours ago, hopkins said:

The real issue, IMO, will be for people who also use analog sources (I do). For those, it will mean either:

 

A - keep your current amplification, upgrade to the new entry-level DAC/DAPI, and keep all your current sources

 

B - keep your current amplification for analog sources, and get a PowerDAC for digital only (PC, CD player, TV...). You'll nead a speaker switch. 

 

C- replace your current amplification + DAC with the PowerDAC and get an ADC for your analog sources. 

 

 

I find it difficult to believe anybody would invest a lot of money in a good vinyl or RTR deck and then put it through a/an additional  digital stage expecting not to lose information.

[murphythecat87]

20 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Yes, I read it too. It makes absolutely sense from their design perspective, but the proof is in the listening.

 

Matt

I suspect the small usb to toslink that ECD will offer will be very similar to their previous Utos product. so it will be:

Utos- powerdac headphone- Focal Utopia-bliss

cant wait

 

 

[matthias]

21 hours ago, hopkins said:

get an ADC for your analog sources. 

 

Did you ask ECD for a recommendation regarding ADC or do they have plans to design one?

Thanks

 

Matt

[matthias]

2 hours ago, Michael L said:

I find it difficult to believe anybody would invest a lot of money in a good vinyl or RTR deck and then put it through a/an additional  digital stage expecting not to lose information.

 

You have loss of Information in pure analog stages as well, for example when your signal goes through a preamp with attenuation.

So the question is if the loss is bigger in the analog or digital stages. Some manufacturers like Linn or ECD think that the loss is bigger in the analog stages.

 

Matt

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

2 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Did you ask ECD for a recommendation regarding ADC or do they have plans to design one?

Thanks

 

Matt

 

No, I have not asked. Don't think they have plans for that. My vinyl system is modest, I will figure something out. I was thinking more generally for people who have large vinyl collections and more expensive gear. 

 

Looking forward to all this as well.

[bodiebill]

For what it is worth, some people report great results feeding analogue signal into high-end active speakers such as Dutch and Dutch, Kii or Buchardt. These speakers obviously include ADC. These reports made me curious and I will receive Buchardt A500's for a 45-day trial period starting in February. Not sure yet how the ECD gear will fit in such a setup, but there are many possibilities and I will experiment...

[matthias]

53 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

Not sure yet how the ECD gear will fit in such a setup, but there are many possibilities and I will experiment...

 

Good luck, I am very curious 😀

 

Matt

[tims]

8 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Good luck, I am very curious 😀

 

Matt

Yep, me too.  I'm getting the same A500's delivered in May - hope they are as good as the reviews say 🙂