ECdesigns

[realDHT]

10 hours ago, tapatrick said:

Possibly, let’s see how this unfolds. I would first prefer to see multiple reports of listening tests that have come to the same conclusion that I have. It’s a helpful way to get round the problems of reading online claims. - even my own. So far we have 1 or 2 which is not enough to come to a definitive conclusion.
 

The EC combo is remarkable and I hope that this is kept in mind.  

Thanks for for sharing your listening experiments and impressions with the ecd combo. I have a U192 and fractal DAC on order and hope that the delivery time will not be super long. Will post my report when I have it. 

[tapatrick]

I'm curious to hear from others what you are finding out about SQ over the longer term. For those interested here are my thoughts to date on sound quality and musical enjoyment using the U192 and Fractal DAC in my set up.

 

Apart from the overall harmony and ease that the EC combo continually brings, one of the qualities which I have noticed with the benefit of longer term listening is in the lower frequencies. There is so much subtlety, clarity and richness with bass notes as well as significant power, no doubt attributed to the lower and restricted noise levels. I have (temporarily?) removed a Bass sub I was using because it is already enough plus very enjoyable and engaging without.

 

I listen to a lot of singer/songwriters, so voices are where most of my attention has been focused (or released! in the case of the EC combo). Now these sound marvellous and natural with great subtlety and depth. This all dependent on variations in recording quality of course but I have found that any noise or sibilance that is in the recordings even though it cannot disappear it is made more palatable. This to me is another major contribution that the EC combo brings.

 

Upper registers ie cymbals etc are finely rendered and again with great natural detail fading away into black background.

 

Soundstage is wide and deep but also the subtleties and nuances of echoes and cues within the soundscape are intoxicating - especially with live recordings. I find this interesting as so often in the past with initial improvements, over time issues start to surface - so far not with this set up.

 

I have also noticed as has been mentioned previously that everything needs to be warmed up and from a cold start this seem to take up from 1/2 to 1 hour. So generally I leave the DAC on most of the time.

[matthias]

35 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

I'm curious to hear from others what you are finding out about SQ over the longer term. For those interested here are my thoughts to date on sound quality and musical enjoyment using the U192 and Fractal DAC in my set up.

 

Apart from the overall harmony and ease that the EC combo continually brings, one of the qualities which I have noticed with the benefit of longer term listening is in the lower frequencies. There is so much subtlety, clarity and richness with bass notes as well as significant power, no doubt attributed to the lower and restricted noise levels. I have (temporarily?) removed a Bass sub I was using because it is already enough plus very enjoyable and engaging without.

 

I listen to a lot of singer/songwriters, so voices are where most of my attention has been focused (or released! in the case of the EC combo). Now these sound marvellous and natural with great subtlety and depth. This all dependent on variations in recording quality of course but I have found that any noise or sibilance that is in the recordings even though it cannot disappear it is made more palatable. This to me is another major contribution that the EC combo brings.

 

Upper registers ie cymbals etc are finely rendered and again with great natural detail fading away into black background.

 

 

Soundstage is wide and deep but also the subtleties and nuances of echoes and cues within the soundscape are intoxicating - especially with live recordings. I find this interesting as so often in the past with initial improvements, over time issues start to surface - so far not with this set up.

 

I have also noticed as has been mentioned previously that everything needs to be warmed up and from a cold start this seem to take up from 1/2 to 1 hour. So generally I leave the DAC on most of the time.

 

Am I right that these listening notes are from your configuration D set-up in your post #938?

Second question: 

Did you try (in configuration D) to power the Fractal DAC with one of your PH PS?

Thanks

 

Matt

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

@tapatrick  There is definitely a warm-up time needed, probably more for the DAC than either the U192 or UPL. Otherwise your impressions are similar to mine.

 

I have also noticed a significant improvement when properly powering the U192. I had previously tested various power supplies, and 5v battery packs. I recently thought of powering it with the batteries from the previous UPL - and bingo ! Those batteries are lithium 3.7v, and the U192 runs fine on them (5v is not needed). I ordered another battery with double the capacity: https://www.tme.eu/fr/details/accu-lp805080_cl/accumulateurs/cellevia-batteries/lp805080/ 

 

5v battery packs typically used to charge phones have zero benefit. They include some regulators which probably generate noise, and the batteries may be of lower quality.

 

I am going to use the case and circuit of the previous UPL to power the U192, and have ordred  a Ghent Audio Y cable: https://www.ghentaudio.com/usb/u21.html. So it should be a fairly "clean" setup.

 

In terms of source, I have found that the lower the power the better. The Pi 4 runs fine, but the Pi 3 A+ is even better, if all you are doing is streaming (either from services or from your home server): https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-3-model-a-plus/ The Pi Zero W has the lowest power consumption and processor, and can run on 3.7v batteries (connected to the 5v supply), but unfortunately WiFi is problematic with high resolution files (16/44 is ok in my house, but 24/96 a disaster). The Pi 3 A+ runs extremely well, and at much lower temperatures (35C) than the Pi 4. I am still using piCorePlayer, and it runs fine. There are many distributions out there that are probably just as good.

 

Once you power the U192 seperately from the source, I believe the power supply of the source is not as critical (but better play it safe).

 

I believe the UPL could benefit also from a clean power source. On Friday, I tested the UPL at a friend's, connected to a noisy laptop, and used one of those 5v battery rechargers to supply power to the UPL seperately - it was a mistake. 

 

I now wish they had kept the same battery supply mechanism than they had in the previous models. There are problems shipping units with batteries, and that may be one reason why they changed ?

 

 

[tapatrick]

44 minutes ago, matthias said:

Am I right that these listening notes are from your configuration D set-up in your post #938?

Yes

 

44 minutes ago, matthias said:

Did you try (in configuration D) to power the Fractal DAC with one of your PH PS?

That is how I run the DAC as I have a couple of PH SR4s and they are excellent PSUs. I posted about this earlier in the thread - the supplied EC PSU is very good and I couldn't say if there was much difference between it and the SR4.

[tapatrick]

53 minutes ago, hopkins said:

@tapatrick  There is definitely a warm-up time needed, probably more for the DAC than either the U192 or UPL. Otherwise your impressions are similar to mine.

 

I have also noticed a significant improvement when properly powering the U192. I had previously tested various power supplies, and 5v battery packs. I recently thought of powering it with the batteries from the previous UPL - and bingo ! Those batteries are lithium 3.7v, and the U192 runs fine on them (5v is not needed). I ordered another battery with double the capacity: https://www.tme.eu/fr/details/accu-lp805080_cl/accumulateurs/cellevia-batteries/lp805080/ 

 

5v battery packs typically used to charge phones have zero benefit. They include some regulators which probably generate noise, and the batteries may be of lower quality.

 

I am going to use the case and circuit of the previous UPL to power the U192, and have ordred  a Ghent Audio Y cable: https://www.ghentaudio.com/usb/u21.html. So it should be a fairly "clean" setup.

 

In terms of source, I have found that the lower the power the better. The Pi 4 runs fine, but the Pi 3 A+ is even better, if all you are doing is streaming (either from services or from your home server): https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-3-model-a-plus/ The Pi Zero W has the lowest power consumption and processor, and can run on 3.7v batteries (connected to the 5v supply), but unfortunately WiFi is problematic with high resolution files (16/44 is ok in my house, but 24/96 a disaster). The Pi 3 A+ runs extremely well, and at much lower temperatures (35C) than the Pi 4. I am still using piCorePlayer, and it runs fine. There are many distributions out there that are probably just as good.

 

Once you power the U192 seperately from the source, I believe the power supply of the source is not as critical (but better play it safe).

 

I believe the UPL could benefit also from a clean power source. On Friday, I tested the UPL at a friend's, connected to a noisy laptop, and used one of those 5v battery rechargers to supply power to the UPL seperately - it was a mistake. 

 

I now wish they had kept the same battery supply mechanism than they had in the previous models. There are problems shipping units with batteries, and that may be one reason why they changed ?

 

 

Thanks for sharing. I spent a couple of years playing around with various batteries and I found the same that mixing regulators and batteries is not advised. The best battery source I found is Ian Canadas LifePo4 / Ultracaps power supplies and he has taken this to a high level of development. (Reminds me I should try one on the U192 5VUSB input)

 

Talking of regulating PSUs then the Ultra low noise LT3045v modules from Alexey https://www.ldovr.com/default.asp or LT3045 based PSUs from https://www.mpaudio.net/product-category should be considered. I have experimented with them for long time and these have been covered in multiple threads so I won't go into it here. In the end I found a PSU of good quality such as the SR4 does not need any extra regulation but other DIY power supplies are great enhanced by them.

[tapatrick]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

Those batteries are lithium 3.7v, and the U192 runs fine on them (5v is not needed).

interesting find... that means the 5V input is regulated down.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

7 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

interesting find... that means the 5V input is regulated down.

 

Yes, exactly. But do it at your own risk  

Power consumption of the U192 is very low - forgot what John stated, but it is less than 100mA.

[tapatrick]

3 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

Yes, exactly. But do it at your own risk  

Power consumption of the U192 is very low - forgot what John stated, but it is less than 100mA.

yes and I'm curious how low the voltage can go too? Maybe I will have a look... 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

1 minute ago, tapatrick said:

yes and I'm curious how low the voltage can go too? Maybe I will have a look... 

 

I think the XMOS chip inside runs on 3.3v, but there are other parts that require power as well.

[seeteeyou]

https://www.xmos.ai/download/XU208-256-TQ64-Datasheet(1.14).pdf#page=27

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/xmos/XU208-256-TQ128-C10/880-1113-ND/5148720

Quote

0.95V ~ 3.6V

 

Most likely other parts would require something lower than 3.6V then?

[Tzougie]

5 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

I think the XMOS chip inside runs on 3.3v, but there are other parts that require power as well.

You shouldn't run the U192ETL at a lower voltage then 5V, it has it's own discrete stabilizing circuit on board which will  work not well when you lower the voltage.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

5 minutes ago, Tzougie said:

You shouldn't run the U192ETL at a lower voltage then 5V, it has it's own discrete stabilizing circuit on board which will  work not well when you lower the voltage.

 

Thanks - will check with ECD as well.  Some circuits work fine with less than the supplied voltage. Its the case for example with the Pi Zero, which has a regulator converting 5.5v to 3.3 and 1.8v, but the specifications (which I checked) state that it runs on lower than 5v.

[tapatrick]

5 minutes ago, Tzougie said:

You shouldn't run the U192ETL at a lower voltage then 5V, it has it's own discrete stabilizing circuit on board which will  work not well when you lower the voltage.

Yes the 5v is needed for a reason...

 

[bodiebill]

8 hours ago, Tzougie said:

No, the input of a TL PS is say about 8 V AC, the TL PS can deliver 5 V DC 1500 mA.

In the photo you'll see a PS with 4 TL PS 5  V, powered by 2 toroids for optimal separation.

 

Thanks. I am planning to power the U192ETL with a PH SR4T (which I expect in a week or so), either directly with 5V or via an MPaudio LT3045 regulator 7V => 5V. According to @tapatrick the LT3045 has no benefit with his SR4. I will do a similar comparison and will report my findings.

 

Could there be any benefit in using a VAC => VDC regulator like the TL PS rather than what I am planning? And as I understand that would be more of a DIY project that requires (a) toroid(s), a case, etc.?

[matthias]

1 hour ago, bodiebill said:

I am planning to power the U192ETL with a PH SR4T

 

Looking forward to your impressions 🙂

 

Matt

[Superdad]

 

15 hours ago, hopkins said:

AFAIK they are not shipping outside the EU for the time being, but you should contact them about this.

 

Wow, really?  For some reason I thought that several users here are in the US.

 

12 hours ago, tapatrick said:

Hi Alex, Yes best to check with John Brown I’m sure they would accommodate you. 
 

If not maybe a contact in Europe could purchase for you. I received my U192 and Fractal DAC in a week or so. Regarding US Power supplies you would only need to supply 5V 1a to the DAC through a USB B connector and similarly the U192 takes 5V from the USB source Cable.  Not sure how the USB transport is powered if you wanted that too.  

 

Thanks. Guess I will write to Mr. Brown.  Prices are very reasonable and the design is interesting.  Am only interested in the DAC and the USB>EletroTOS converter, not the USB stick player.

 

One question I have is what happens when you feed the U192 24/192 PCM--since the DAC itself only goes to 24/96.  I know that at lower rates it is all NOS, but is there some processing that downsamples when higher than 24/96 is fed?

 

Cheers,

--Alex C.

 

[Ben75]

10 hours ago, hopkins said:

@tapatrick  There is definitely a warm-up time needed, probably more for the DAC than either the U192 or UPL. Otherwise your impressions are similar to mine.

 

I have also noticed a significant improvement when properly powering the U192. I had previously tested various power supplies, and 5v battery packs. I recently thought of powering it with the batteries from the previous UPL - and bingo ! Those batteries are lithium 3.7v, and the U192 runs fine on them (5v is not needed). I ordered another battery with double the capacity: https://www.tme.eu/fr/details/accu-lp805080_cl/accumulateurs/cellevia-batteries/lp805080/ 

 

5v battery packs typically used to charge phones have zero benefit. They include some regulators which probably generate noise, and the batteries may be of lower quality.

 

I am going to use the case and circuit of the previous UPL to power the U192, and have ordred  a Ghent Audio Y cable: https://www.ghentaudio.com/usb/u21.html. So it should be a fairly "clean" setup.

 

In terms of source, I have found that the lower the power the better. The Pi 4 runs fine, but the Pi 3 A+ is even better, if all you are doing is streaming (either from services or from your home server): https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-3-model-a-plus/ The Pi Zero W has the lowest power consumption and processor, and can run on 3.7v batteries (connected to the 5v supply), but unfortunately WiFi is problematic with high resolution files (16/44 is ok in my house, but 24/96 a disaster). The Pi 3 A+ runs extremely well, and at much lower temperatures (35C) than the Pi 4. I am still using piCorePlayer, and it runs fine. There are many distributions out there that are probably just as good.

 

Once you power the U192 seperately from the source, I believe the power supply of the source is not as critical (but better play it safe).

 

I believe the UPL could benefit also from a clean power source. On Friday, I tested the UPL at a friend's, connected to a noisy laptop, and used one of those 5v battery rechargers to supply power to the UPL seperately - it was a mistake. 

 

I now wish they had kept the same battery supply mechanism than they had in the previous models. There are problems shipping units with batteries, and that may be one reason why they changed ?

 

 

Many thanks for your excellent feedbacks Stéphane !

 

How do you stream local music files through your Pi 3 A+? Through WiFi? If this is the case : does it work well with 24/192 kHz files? 🙂

 

Could you let us know the answer from John concerning the 3,7v battery pack potential use?

 

Hope to see you soon after holidays... perhaps at Roberto flat to challenge its Terminator + SOtM SMS 200 Ultra streamer? 😉

 

Great job for your tests!

[tapatrick]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

One question I have is what happens when you feed the U192 24/192 PCM--since the DAC itself only goes to 24/96.  I know that at lower rates it is all NOS, but is there some processing that downsamples when higher than 24/96 is fed?

I believe higher than 24/192 will not play but not sure as I only play redbook which I find very satisfying.

[tapatrick]

5 hours ago, bodiebill said:

Could there be any benefit in using a VAC => VDC regulator like the TL PS rather than what I am planning? And as I understand that would be more of a DIY project that requires (a) toroid(s), a case, etc.?

Personally as much as I like to play around with  these things there is a lot that goes into a good PSU so I leave it to the experts. The PHynes are excellent.

[Huubster]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

One question I have is what happens when you feed the U192 24/192 PCM--since the DAC itself only goes to 24/96.

 

I experienced this on my streamer and the UPL, both 'play' the files, but no sound at all

 

I thought there was something wrong with the files or something went wrong during the copying, until I realised I was trying to play 192khz files..

[tapatrick]

2 hours ago, Ben75 said:

.. perhaps at Roberto flat to challenge its Terminator + SOtM SMS 200 Ultra streamer? 

🤔 looking forward to hearing about that.  

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, Huubster said:

I experienced this on my streamer and the UPL, both 'play' the files, but no sound at all

 

I thought there was something wrong with the files or something went wrong during the copying, until I realised I was trying to play 192khz files..

 

So then what is the point of the making it the U192–if the DAC it is designed to feed only accepts rates to 96KHz? 

(And I hope nobody suggests it is so that the U192 can be used as a USB>TOSlink converted with other DACs at 192KHz. )

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

5 hours ago, Ben75 said:

How do you stream local music files through your Pi 3 A+? Through WiFi? If this is the case : does it work well with 24/96 [my edit] kHz files?

 

The performance of wifi depends on a number of factors and it is hard to generalize. The Pi 3 A+ had no problem with 24/96 hz files.

 

Today I got the Pi Zero W to play 24/96 files without any glitches by placing a small wifi hub closer to my system (https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-Wireless-Travel-Router-TL-WR902AC/dp/B01N5RCZQH). 95% of my music is 16/44, but I was also having occasional glitches with those.

 

The Pi Zero W has the lowest specs of all the Pi models with build-in wifi, and can be powered using one of these 3.7v batteries. That probably makes for a pretty "clean" source and I can hear the difference, at this point, but need to confirm over time.

 

All the tests I have done are using wifi, as I find it sounds better than wired - in my system. I don't have any network "cleaners" and my router (and other wired devices in my home) probably pumps in a lot of noise into the wired network. 

 

The quality of electrical power in my flat is also dubious - hence my experiments with battery power. There again, I don't think you can generalize. I also seem to get best results by using ECD's amps which have no ground connection, and leaves my entire system "groundless" (as the Fractal DAC's PS is also not grounded).

I suspect that some may get optimal sound in their system using the U192 straight "out of the box". Even though the U192/Fractal DAC did sound, in my system, much better than the previous units, the SQ was not "consistent", and my experiments with linear power supplies were frustrating. 

 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

4 hours ago, tapatrick said:

🤔 looking forward to hearing about that  [comparison to the Terminator]

 

I did get a chance to compare the Fractal DAC to the Terminator, but only briefly, as we ended up spending most of our time playing the Fractal DAC (with either the UPL or the U192 and various sources). We started listening to the Terminator in my friend's normal setup, then to the Terminator + UPL (in "compatibility mode", using the Terminator's toslink input) and then switched to the Fractal DAC + UPL. At that point, the Fractal DAC had been plugged in for probably over 30 minutes, but not playing. My friends thought the Terminator had a slight edge. I was a little disappointed with the sound of either of them (Terminator or Fractal) using the UPL - but had the UPL powered by a cheap 5v battery pack (to avoid using the power from an old laptop I had taken along). I think that was a mistake. The rest of the session showed that a "top notch" USB source sounded better than my RaspberryPi 4 powered with a small linear PS or battery pack. So at the end of the day, I am not sure the tests were done in the right conditions, and I came out of it a little frustrated, but happy to confirm that my friend had a good system - which I already knew