CA Readers Are, "clueless, equally bitter and uninformed"

[shp]

Barnes & Noble has announced audiobooks on vinyl. The complete Lord of the Rings trilogy is expected soon. The album collection will weigh about 50 pounds.

[esldude]

What you don't seem to understand is that the music "sounds" the same to me & many other musicians regardless of the system, unless I'm listening "to" the system. If I want or need to identify system performance characteristics, I can do so. But they don't affect the sound of the music unless I let them - I and others like me "hear" the performance as it was, even if the reproduction isn't that good. It may be psychoacoustic, but it's real.

 

As a non-musican, having watched and listened to musicians pick up a new piece of music they are trying for the first time or pick up what someone on the instruments are doing, I think musicians hear musical patterns. Some recent research leads one to think the human brain is primarily a pattern matching machine. I think musicians hear these patterns, and beyond the most basic notes they need nothing else. That they don't 'need' the fidelity is obvious. I have seen too many learn a song hearing it in some conditions so compromised I couldn't enjoy the music.

 

An extreme fictional movie scene that portrays what I have in mind is from the movie Amadeus where Mozart hears just a part of a new piece from Salieri played very poorly by the Emporer. He then proceeds to hear and perceive the pattern to recreate the entirety of it. Then further finds what isn't right to improve it in a couple minutes. This is most of that scene here:

 

 

Here is the extended scene.

 

 

You don't need much fidelity for that kind of pattern matching. I think it also why some musicians can be quite good musicians even with compromised hearing. Also this is why the idea musicians generally have a better aural discriminating ability in the sense of ferreting out fidelity doesn't really ring true. Not so much they can't it just isn't germane to the musicianship.

[wgscott]

It does make one wonder how much of this is innate. Kind of like language acquisition from listening to flawed examples.

[gmgraves]

Harman-Kardon demo'ed the Citation 2 at shows by using it as a video amp for a TV. The ultrawide bandwidth was the reason it sounded so good, according to HK. And it was a killer - I loved mine. The FM approach would have worked fine through a C2.

 

The FM approach was tried by several tape recorder manufacturers including Western Electric, but it wasn't enough better (at the time) than linear tape recording to be deemed worthwhile. Also a company called Weathers even built an FM pickup for phonographs. In the "cartridge", two "plates" formed a capacitor which was part of an oscillator circuit tuned to ~40MHz. The stylus would change the value of the pickup capacitance at an audio rate thus varying the oscillator frequency, I.E. frequency modulating (FM) the signal. The audio was demodulated using a discriminator circuit, just as in an FM radio. When stereo came along, Weathers modified the system to multiplex the second channel onto the main carrier, in much the same way that stereo FM radio would work several years later.

[gmgraves]

Laser Disc had the potential to be considerably better with it's non contact data retrieval,(no wear) and large covers like LPs for those oldies with poor eyesight !

 

 

Don't forget the potential for laser-rot. I had over 400 laser discs at one time, and too many of them would eventually develop a multi-colored noise patter we called "sparkelies". Eventually they would get so bad, the video became unwatchable. Some of them even became delaminated. At least LPs, if you don't scratch or otherwise damage them, will last!

[Jud]

It does make one wonder how much of this is innate. Kind of like language acquisition from listening to flawed examples.

 

There is a body of research relating musical ability (pitch recognition, etc.) and ability to learn new languages.

[Jud]

As a non-musican, having watched and listened to musicians pick up a new piece of music they are trying for the first time or pick up what someone on the instruments are doing, I think musicians hear musical patterns. Some recent research leads one to think the human brain is primarily a pattern matching machine.

 

Let me know whether you can access this:

 

Our Ears Can Detect Cancer and Space Weather - Scientific American

[Paul R]

Let me know whether you can access this:

 

Our Ears Can Detect Cancer and Space Weather - Scientific American

 

Just the preview is available to me, without signing into my subscription account.

[bluesman]

I wonder if some loosely related operator is in effect when playing back vinyl, masking the unpleasant effects that digital exposes

Makes perfect sense, Paul. White noise masks spousal snoring, which is almost certainly as unpleasant as odd order harmonic distortion in music reproduction.

 

David

[phusis]

Below quote (from a Living Voice Vox Olympian/Elysian review) mirrors an experience I had through another pair of all-horn speakers this last spring, where I had a certain affinity for the CD-sound compared to the turntable setup that I hadn't previously experienced as vividly:

 

Why mention both the LP and the CD? Because each, in its own way, illustrates another unique aspect of the VO/VE listening experience. These speakers love CD, thriving on its linearity and stability, qualities that echo their own strengths so closely. Don’t get me wrong, LPs sound just as fabulous through the big Living Voice speakers, but the wrong record player can definitely sound bumptious and even a little crude, especially on classical music. No such problems with the VPI Classic Direct Drive with Lyra Etna, but then linearity and stability are pretty high on its agenda too. With the Tallis, the record brought a beguiling sense of immediacy and presence, life and color. In comparison, the CD sounded flatter, but otherwise it was actually, if anything, even more convincingly reminiscent of live performance. Suddenly, playing classical music on the Neodio Origine through the VO/VE setup, CD ceases to be a poor second to vinyl, matching it and even exceeding it on occasions.

 

Before you get too excited about the vinyl scales falling from my eyes (and ears) what’s really significant here is not which is better -- a judgment that varies with recording and source components -- but that CD becomes a perfectly viable alternative to LP. That increases the range of listening options by better than a half!

 

Living Voice Vox Olympian/Vox Elysian Speaker System - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com

 

It would be interesting to include speakers as a more viable variant, so to speak, in coming about the potential of CD vs. LP - certainly in a different way than focusing solely on the medium and source material for evaluation between the two. For many this may seem irrelevant being that ones preference for either one or the order format is determined largely through ones own setup (leading nonetheless to generalizations), but as a discussion in more general terms I find it bears importance.

[new_media]

[Norton]

 

A graph, the CA variant on Godwin's law.

 

Or (as I think Vic Reeves said): "98% of statistics are made up on the spot"

[orgel]

A graph, the CA variant on Godwin's law.

 

Not quite sure what the connection to Godwin's Law is, but here's the other graph that's in the same Digital Music News "article":

 

 

So when viewed in the context of a much smaller time frame, there's definitely been an increase in sales. Whether you want to characterize it as huge or not is up to you. (Personally, I think there should be increased emphasis on bringing back 45-rpm singles. Remember those little suitcases you could get so you could carry around your 45's?)

 

(The source for both graphs is given as RIAA, and it looks like this is US sales only.)

 

--David

[Norton]

Not quite sure what the connection to Godwin's Law is, but here's the other graph that's in the same Digital Music News "article":

 

 

So when viewed in the context of a much smaller time frame, there's definitely been an increase in sales. Whether you want to characterize it as huge or not is up to you. (Personally, I think there should be increased emphasis on bringing back 45-rpm singles. Remember those little suitcases you could get so you could carry around your 45's?)

 

(The source for both graphs is given as RIAA, and it looks like this is US sales only.)

 

--David

 

Exactly. You can select time series and manipulate x axis scaling to make a graph fit whatever point you wish to make ( and I imagine "Digital Music News" had a point to make). Looks to me from the above that vinyl sales have increased by something like 2000% over the last decade....whether that has anything to do with the title of this thread is another matter though..

 

I'm sure someone could post a graph comparing the numbers of ITunes vs. HQPlayer users over time- yet I doubt that would be meaningful evidence as to their relative SQ.

[orgel]

You can select time series and manipulate x axis scaling to make a graph fit whatever point you wish to make ( and I imagine "Digital Music News" had a point to make).

 

Agreed, and to me, it looks like this is the same point that Digital Music News was trying to make.

 

Still don't see the connection to Godwin's Law, but it's not that big a deal (which was also my reaction to viewing the "controversial" video).

 

--David

 

P.S. They still make 'em!

[Norton]

Agreed, and to me, it looks like this is the same point that Digital Music News was trying to make.

 

Still don't see the connection to Godwin's Law, but it's not that big a deal (which was also my reaction to viewing the "controversial" video).

 

--David

 

P.S. They still make 'em!

 

As a (CA) online discussion grows longer, the probability of someone posting a graph approaches 1

[esldude]

The graph is one of the most on point posts on this thread. Fremer initially objected to calling LP sales a fad. An no manipulating the time and axis labels isn't about showing any point you want to make. Not if you are honest and are trying to answer an honest question. If you wish to be dishonest then it fits. This honesty seemed to be a bit of data Fremer was unwilling to accept. Pushing a format he favors is fine, but he seemed intent on squashing the idea it was still a small potatoes market.

 

The entire graph shows that while LP sales have rebounded a bit, and are growing rapidly in recent years, they are still a tiny fraction of sales volume past or present. One would think a fad is a pretty accurate description. If that trend continues, and it eventually grows into something near the former volume then okay it was not a fad. The best bet with all the information is that it is a fad or perhaps a growing niche market rebound. It would at this point seem very unlikely it will continue growing enough to become a significant slice of the music distribution market. Which was one of Chris' points in the video. Its growth while real was a fad size market. It didn't indicate directly that it was the result of superior sound quality to digital as Fremer wanted to imply (though it doesn't go against that idea it still does not validate it).

[esldude]

Let me know whether you can access this:

 

Our Ears Can Detect Cancer and Space Weather - Scientific American

 

I am no longer a subscriber and therefore can only see the short summary type preview.

 

Detecting Cancer by Sound [Audio] - Scientific American

 

Here is a page with some of the sounds used for cancer cell detection. I did hear an interview on NPR about this a few months back.

 

http://phys.org/news/2014-09-nasa-scientists.html

 

And here is one about space weather monitoring also with sound clips to listen to.

 

It is called sonification, rather the aural version of visualization. I haven't read it, but there is a book about it here:

 

http://sonification.de/handbook/

 

Further in the vein of pattern matching and hearing, many years ago at the Huntsville Space and Rocket center they had a demo of astronaut training where one of the early systems used audio for the astronauts to monitor various spacecraft conditions. I believe they were monitoring 16 totally different parameters though I may have that number wrong. It was several at least. They played that sound, it was beeps, swishes, pulsing tones etc. A real cacophony of electronic noises in the days before most people had devices making beeping sounds. It seemed impossible to monitor things.

 

The demo proceeded to isolate a few of them. One was cabin temperature. In a few minutes you could learn to hear it too and read cabin temp off the repeating sound by its modulation. They added other parameters, like O2 level, CO2 level, fuel tank level or some such mix. 5 different things. You learned each one and they kept combining them. Surprisingly, after a half hour or so you too could monitor 5 different parameters of a background tone of mixed electronic sounds. The notable thing was it was a pattern you were monitoring. The pattern might be one of the beep tones rising or lowering in pitch. Or it might be the rate of beeping or a combination. You were monitoring patterns however. For some reason the blurb on the SciAm article reminded of it. Hadn't thought about it for years.

[sandyk]

Don't forget the potential for laser-rot. I had over 400 laser discs at one time, and too many of them would eventually develop a multi-colored noise patter we called "sparkelies". Eventually they would get so bad, the video became unwatchable. Some of them even became delaminated. At least LPs, if you don't scratch or otherwise damage them, will last!

 

George

Those problems would have been overcome by better manufacturing processes just as they were with earlier CDs.

 

Alex

[gmgraves]

George

Those problems would have been overcome by better manufacturing processes just as they were with earlier CDs.

 

Alex

 

 

Believe me, Pioneer tried. When the Laser Disc debacle was over, Pioneer was a much smaller company. Not saying that the one thing had anything to do with the other, but it certainly didn't help Pioneer's position in the consumer electronics marketplace.

[Norton]

The graph is one of the most on point posts on this thread. Fremer initially objected to calling LP sales a fad. An no manipulating the time and axis labels isn't about showing any point you want to make. Not if you are honest and are trying to answer an honest question. If you wish to be dishonest then it fits. This honesty seemed to be a bit of data Fremer was unwilling to accept. Pushing a format he favors is fine, but he seemed intent on squashing the idea it was still a small potatoes market.

 

The entire graph shows that while LP sales have rebounded a bit, and are growing rapidly in recent years, they are still a tiny fraction of sales volume past or present. One would think a fad is a pretty accurate description. If that trend continues, and it eventually grows into something near the former volume then okay it was not a fad. The best bet with all the information is that it is a fad or perhaps a growing niche market rebound. It would at this point seem very unlikely it will continue growing enough to become a significant slice of the music distribution market. Which was one of Chris' points in the video. Its growth while real was a fad size market. It didn't indicate directly that it was the result of superior sound quality to digital as Fremer wanted to imply (though it doesn't go against that idea it still does not validate it).

 

Well I've been buying and listening to vinyl for the last 18 years so it doesn't feel like much of a "fad" to me. However, as to being to the point, I'm not sure what the point of this whole thread is. Having now seen "the video" I would have thought "2 American men have mild disagreement over music formats in public meeting" (as the Onion might have put it) would be a more appropriate title.

[esldude]

Well I've been buying and listening to vinyl for the last 18 years so it doesn't feel like much of a "fad" to me. However, as to being to the point, I'm not sure what the point of this whole thread is. Having now seen "the video" I would have thought "2 American men have mild disagreement over music formats in public meeting" (as the Onion might have put it) would be a more appropriate title.

 

Yeah, so what. My Dad still regularly drives cars from the 1930's. Doesn't mean he is proof that such cars are going to be the norm again. People restoring and using such cars has also increased over the last generation. Also still a very small segment of transportation.

 

I am not being anti-vinyl on this. If you still enjoy vinyl, then its greater popularity is a boon to you. The idea it is going to become huge again is unlikely to pan out.

[Norton]

Yeah, so what. My Dad still regularly drives cars from the 1930's. Doesn't mean he is proof that such cars are going to be the norm again. People restoring and using such cars has also increased over the last generation. Also still a very small segment of transportation.

 

I am not being anti-vinyl on this. If you still enjoy vinyl, then its greater popularity is a boon to you. The idea it is going to become huge again is unlikely to pan out.

 

Well, if 22 million brand new 1930s cars will be sold in 2015 compared to 1million in 2005, then that would be a fair analogy (I'm taking the data posted above at face value, another weakness of the first graph posted was the lack of any attribution to a primary source or definition of the data).

 

I don't think anyone is claiming that vinyl is going to be "huge" again. However, it would be interesting to see hires album download sales vs LP sales over the last 5 years, and the varying interpretations that might also be placed on that data.

[firedog]

The difference is that most people here would probably willingly accept a claim that "hi-res" is only a small niche market and may never be much more.

 

Well, if 22 million brand new 1930s cars will be sold in 2015 compared to 1million in 2005, then that would be a fair analogy (I'm taking the data posted above at face value, another weakness of the first graph posted was the lack of any attribution to a primary source or definition of the data).

 

I don't think anyone is claiming that vinyl is going to be "huge" again. However, it would be interesting to see hires album download sales vs LP sales over the last 5 years, and the varying interpretations that might also be placed on that data.

[mav52]

I guess it depends on who you believe and how a graph is built . ex; PAID digital downloads

Sometimes graphs can be a little odd until you know the details. All this one shows is a percentage of loss and gain not actual sells numbers