Optical Network Configurations

[pl_svn]

11 minutes ago, Duke40 said:

Picture below (from earlier tonight) shows the MikroTik S+AO0005 connected with "Link On" ... yet could not see devices connected to either of my ERs ... either with "Auto-Negotiation" enabled or disabled

same here: forcing 1GB gave me "Link On" but none of the devices connected to the EtherRegen was showing on/accessible from the network

[Duke40]

5 minutes ago, pl_svn said:

same here: forcing 1GB gave me "Link On" but none of the devices connected to the EtherRegen was showing on/accessible from the network

 

Yeah, I wonder what is the cause.  

 

Earlier tonight I thought it was SwitchOS (to be direct, MikroTik SwitchOS is a bit clunky, and I dread ever having to go into RouterOS. Though I consider the hardware really great, especially as a switch, for the cost it is an absolute bargain. Also think the small MikroTik switch's, like the CRS305, would be great utilised as a FMC).

 

 

Though when I was having trouble earlier tonight I checked your earlier posts (quoted below) ... and that is interesting that the MikroTik 10G S+AO0005 AOC cable works with your other gear like TP-Link FMC.

 

On 4/5/2021 at 9:45 PM, pl_svn said:

new experiment: tried connecting my MikroTik CSS610 switch to a TP-Link MC220L using MikroTik S+AO0005 SFP+ pre-terminated cable and... it works! 🙂 (forcing a 1GB connection)

Allo USBridge Sig working smoothlessly connected this way

 

[pl_svn]

8 minutes ago, Duke40 said:

I wonder what is the cause

 

9 minutes ago, Duke40 said:

is interesting that the MikroTik 10G S+AO0005 AOC cable works with your other gear like TP-Link FMC

let's try once more calling @Superdad and maybe @JohnSwenson too 😜

[Superdad]

45 minutes ago, Duke40 said:

is interesting that the MikroTik 10G S+AO0005 AOC cable works with your other gear like TP-Link FMC.

 

Hard to know if the compatibility issue lay with the MikroTik switch or their preterminated active optical cable. We have no intention of purchasing lots of switches, cables, and SFP transceivers to test combinations. (Such an undertaking would bring our modest firm to a halt. )

 

Our Hong Kong dealer AfterDark has tested and confirmed EtherREGEN compatibility with the Finisar AOCs, and he sells those:

https://www.adark.co/collections/uptone-audio/products/copy-of-afterdark-project-clayx-constellation-sfp-finisar-active-optical-cable-aoc

or folks can order the same from DigiKey:

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/finisar-corporation/FCBG110SD1C01/4416195

Certainly inexpensive enough.

 

Given the report you made with regards to configuration issues and forcing the MikroTik switch to 1Gbe, I think you can see the sort of quagmire we would be dropping into if we attempted to support connections to specific models of other company's switches.

 

Sorry we can't be of more help in this. 

 

[barrows]

35 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Hard to know if the compatibility issue lay with the MikroTik switch or their preterminated active optical cable. We have no intention of purchasing lots of switches, cables, and SFP transceivers to test combinations. (Such an undertaking would bring our modest firm to a halt. )

 

Our Hong Kong dealer AfterDark has tested and confirmed EtherREGEN compatibility with the Finisar AOCs, and he sells those:

https://www.adark.co/collections/uptone-audio/products/copy-of-afterdark-project-clayx-constellation-sfp-finisar-active-optical-cable-aoc

or folks can order the same from DigiKey:

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/finisar-corporation/FCBG110SD1C01/4416195

Certainly inexpensive enough.

 

Given the report you made with regards to configuration issues and forcing the MikroTik switch to 1Gbe, I think you can see the sort of quagmire we would be dropping into if we attempted to support connections to specific models of other company's switches.

 

Sorry we can't be of more help in this. 

 

Hahaha yeah Alex no doubt!  There are an infinite number of possible combinations, and no company can be expected to test all of them.   And indeed, if a company did endeavor to start testing such things, inevitably customers would then start asking which set up sounds best, which would result in a much deeper rabbit hole to go down.  

[plissken]

Always check the logging in your managed switch when working these sort of issues.

[pl_svn]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

the sort of quagmire we would be dropping into if we attempted to support connections to specific models of other company's switches.

 

I absolutely do understand

 

though... we are not talking about brands purposely making their products compatible with some given other brads only: issue here is just about this MikroTik cable working with a 1GB only Tp-Link MC but not with the 1GB only EtherRegen's SFP cage (which works fine with a Tp-Link 1GB transceiver)

only difference I can think of is... EtherRegen not doing any negotiation (as you wrote some posts back) and the switch expecting at the very least a... "Ok, I'm fine"

[ericuco]

I did a recent experiment using an Intel dual-rate SFP module (1Gbe/10Gbe). This module, installed in my music server with an Intel X520-DA1 NIC, connects to an Finisar SFP module (1Gbe) in my Mikrotik switch and all is good. SwOS shows a 1Gbe connection.

 

If I move the Intel dual-rate module to the Mikrotik switch and try to connect to my opticalRendu with a Finisar SFP module (1Gbe), I could not get it work. If I left the Mikrotik (SwOS) to auto-negotiate setting, then they would not establish a link. If I forced the connection in SwOS to 1Gbe, I could get them to connect but it would never connect to the rest of my network (e.g. HQP on my music server could not discover the NAA on the oR even though both were connected to the same Mikrotik switch).

 

Currently I configured:

 

Music Server (Intel dual-rate SFP) > Mikrotik switch (Finisar 1 Gbe) then Mikrotik switch (Finisar 1Gbe) > oR (Finisar 1Gbe)

 

The Ethernet port on the Mikrotik connects to the rest of my network.

[Mouna]

I would like to know if

number 1  can I use the first ER on the A side with LAN connection from the router + Lan connection from the PC directing Roon + use the sfp cage with fiber - to the second ER sfp cage side A > LAN from B side to the streamer or do i get problems with the moat?

With this version I wouldn't have to use a third switch....but would it work - I doubt it....

or number 2 Bonn 8 switch LAN to first ER port B - from port A fiber to second ER port A > to streamer via port B?

do I miss something?

[Duke40]

19 hours ago, Superdad said:

Hard to know if the compatibility issue lay with the MikroTik switch or their preterminated active optical cable.

 

True.  

 

I tried another test tonight by getting the SFP+ ports which had the S+AO0005 cable, to just only advertise 1000M full duplex via ssh console commands (instead of forcing speed), and still no joy. I did check the logs, and did not see any errors, though that is limited as I only get better logging via RouterOS [SwitchOS just shows error counts via its web interface].

 

If I had to make a guess (and that is all I can do without better detail/logging) I am kind of leaning towards it being the MikroTik switch. Though, it still makes me wonder why Paolo had no issues connecting a 1Gbe FMC using the same AOC cable and a MikroTik switch, yet had same trouble as me when trying to connect to ER. 

 

19 hours ago, Superdad said:

Our Hong Kong dealer AfterDark has tested and confirmed EtherREGEN compatibility with the Finisar AOCs, and he sells those:

https://www.adark.co/collections/uptone-audio/products/copy-of-afterdark-project-clayx-constellation-sfp-finisar-active-optical-cable-aoc

or folks can order the same from DigiKey:

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/finisar-corporation/FCBG110SD1C01/4416195

Certainly inexpensive enough.

 

Thanks Alex!  Had a look at this, though these AOCs seem to be sold/matched with 1Gbe FMC's, nothing stated about working with 10Gbe switch's. If I do change my mind and decide to pursue this further I will contact Adrian to check his thoughts.

 

Before getting the Finisar AOCs, having a go with the MikroTik S+AO0005 AOC cable was actually the inexpensive test with my 10Gbe switch. So will probably not pursue it further as I have other rabbit holes that I wish to explore [I am about halfway thru reading the "Master Clock for your EtherREGEN" thread, and that is something I may deal with AfterDark in the future].

 

19 hours ago, Superdad said:

Given the report you made with regards to configuration issues and forcing the MikroTik switch to 1Gbe, I think you can see the sort of quagmire we would be dropping into if we attempted to support connections to specific models of other company's switches.

 

Yes, I understand.

 

Prior to getting the S+AO0005 cable I accepted I was going into uncharted & unsupported territory, that I was taking a risk, plus the ER manual is very specific on only using 1Gb SFP modules... so I knew I was taking a bit of an inexpensive gamble.

 

In the future I'll just avoid 10Gb modules/cables of any kind, as I want to keep the MikroTik CRS305 10Gb switch, it is perfect for my needs.

 

This was a curiosity experiment for me (like when I compared MM to SM), and to take it further, such as purchasing other Active Optical Cables or other hardware, is not really worth the effort. I'll stick with the 1Gb SFPs like Finisar1321 and Planet Techs, they work a treat.

 

19 hours ago, Superdad said:

Sorry we can't be of more help in this. 

 

No worries. I appreciate your response. 😃 

 

[pl_svn]

@Duke40 ... just for fun (and as one never knows 😉)... since you have two ERs... what about connecting them one another via the S+AO0005 cable?

[plissken]

22 minutes ago, Duke40 said:

I'll stick with the 1Gb SFPs like Finisar1321 and Planet Techs, they work a treat.

 

This is a good recommendation. Just get the SX LC (850nm Multimode) 1GBe transceivers. They are like $6-$8 and the cabling is equally affordable. At 125MB/s they are 12500% more bandwidth than you need for even 24/192 PCM. You get all your ground plane isolation that you could hope for.

[Duke40]

7 minutes ago, pl_svn said:

... just for fun (and as one never knows 😉)... since you have two ERs... what about connecting them one another via the S+AO0005 cable?

 

@pl_svn that's a great 👍 idea ... yes, one never knows 😃.

 

I'll give it a go ... give me about an hour, and I'll report back.

 

I will try the following to utilise testing the S+AO0005 cable

MikroTik CRS305 >

Cat 6a into ER1 Side B >

ER1 Side A connecting S+AO0005 cable to ER2 Side A >

ER2 Side B with its usual Cat 6A

 

Normally it is like this:

MikroTik CRS305 > Finisar SFP > ER audio side A > Cat6a Side B

MikroTik CRS305 > Planet Tech SFP > ER video side A >  Cat6a Side B 

[Duke40]

1 hour ago, pl_svn said:

just for fun (and as one never knows 😉)... since you have two ERs... what about connecting them one another via the S+AO0005 cable?

 

@pl_svn  It works !!!  Woohoo 🎉 

 

[using the test setup described above ... I even moved the power for the first ER to my network rack ... to ensure that I still had ground plane isolation between Network rack and AV rack. My AV rack is powered by a balanced power supply, so everything is isolated electrically].

 

As for how it sounds I will have to wait until tomorrow (it has just turned past midnight in Australia, so only low volume testing at 45 to 55 dB, and I need a bit more volume to assess for any SQ changes, I usually listen to music at 60 to 75dB).

[pl_svn]

1 minute ago, Duke40 said:

It works !!!  Woohoo 🎉 

great indeed! 🍾

hope it wasn't just for fun and curiosity but you actually have a use for this setup

 

so, in the end... looks MikroTik's switch is expecting something the ER does not tell whilst two ERs not expecting anything... just do work

[stray_cat]

7 hours ago, Mouna said:

I would like to know if

number 1  can I use the first ER on the A side with LAN connection from the router + Lan connection from the PC directing Roon + use the sfp cage with fiber - to the second ER sfp cage side A > LAN from B side to the streamer or do i get problems with the moat?

With this version I wouldn't have to use a third switch....but would it work - I doubt it....

@Mouna Pretty sure it would work but consider connecting the LAN from the PC directing Roon to the B side of ER #1 instead so you get the benefit of the moat between the PC and the router this way, and benefits of fiber and the 2nd moat between them to your streamer via ER #2? I'm thinking theoretically using both moats provide better isolation between the PC and streamer. Only way to be sure is try it and listen to sonic differences. Good luck!

[Duke40]

3 minutes ago, pl_svn said:

great indeed! 🍾

hope it wasn't just for fun and curiosity but you actually have a use for this setup

 

@pl_svn It will depend on the SQ tests tomorrow, for the moment it is just for fun and curiosity.

 

[else it will be more damage to my wallet as I would need to get either ... another ER or MikroTik CRS305 ... to be used for video].

 

I normally have an ER dedicated for audio, the other ER is dedicated for video, in my home office/gym AV setup. Actually find the ER for video gives even greater benefits than the ER for audio. For this test I had to use both ERs for audio.

 

If it does make a significant improvement for SQ, I'll just have to sacrifice the video benefits of an ER at the moment. Maybe forget about a clock upgrade for the ER audio, and keep this setup instead (and get another ER later on for video to be placed on the AV rack ... or another MikroTik CRS305 to be placed on the AV rack).

 

I also may find no or little benefit, and just get some multi mode SFP's like @plissken 🙏 suggested in a post above.

1 hour ago, plissken said:

Just get the SX LC (850nm Multimode) 1GBe transceivers. They are like $6-$8 and the cabling is equally affordable. At 125MB/s they are 12500% more bandwidth than you need for even 24/192 PCM. You get all your ground plane isolation that you could hope for.

Already found some Finisar FTLF8524P2BNV MM SFP, they are SX LC 850nm, for less than $5 on ebay!

I'll investigate this more depending on how I go with the new test setup tomorrow.

Finisar appears to be a good brand, and these MM SFP use lasers rather than LED.

I think I will need some OM3 cable if I go down this path, and that will depend on how I go with the test setup tomorrow.

 

Truth be told, I struggle a bit conceptually with the whole SM being preferable to MM posts (just been following along the other posters who have more experience & have been grateful 🙏 for them taking the time to post their experience, which tends to favour SM in most threads). Yet, I'll give MM a proper go, if this MikroTik S+AO0005 does not work out tomorrow.

 

Im also not a fan of spending a lot on cables, actually just bought five pieces of Designacabe Belden Catsnake 5e, as I dont have to worry about shields and ground loops, it certainly has the capacity for audio/video many times over, and was less than $10 each.

 

Time will tell, when I get a chance to have a listen tomorrow.

 

16 minutes ago, pl_svn said:

so, in the end... looks MikroTik's switch is expecting something the ER does not tell whilst two ERs not expecting anything... just do work

 

Anyhoo, at least I have ruled out the cable being completely faulty. 

Yes, agree it does looks like it indicates more that the MikroTik switch is expecting something.

 

[Superdad]

Hi gents:

Whilst I’m enjoying reading about all your experiments—with various SFP/SFP+ transceivers and cables with your EtherREGENs and other switches—out of respect for the OP @jabbr perhaps the EtherREGEN-configuration-focused discussion would best be carried over to a thread in our forum area.

 

That said, it is really interesting what you all have discovered, and I think it is mostly consistent with what was postulated (by myself and Jabbr) a few pages ago. That being that 10GBe switches would really prefer to talk at that rate through their SFP+ ports, and if one wishes to install SFP+ transceivers in 1Gbe SFP ports it’s best that both ends be plain 1Gbe SFP.

YMMV. 

Cheers,

—Alex C.

[MarkusBarkus]

48 minutes ago, Duke40 said:

Truth be told, I struggle a bit conceptually with the whole SM being preferable to MM posts

I am one of those posters, and I think it is A-OK with Multi-Mode fiber. I began with a basic 10Gtek MM set-up. I changed some things, and as posted previously, I am on Single Mode because it was the last I tested. Cable is cheap, so I pulled MM and SM cable for 35' run. 
 

IMO a lot of what we dabble with very likely has theoretical differences, but practically, it might be hard to hear. 
 

That said, I have done things based on theoretical positions that I have not always been consistently able to discern as being different. And my system is revealing, IMO. 

 

I am 100% comfortable saying: in my system, in this neighborhood in the city, fiber is an improvement over ethernet on that 35' run. Good Luck!

[jabbr]

22 hours ago, barrows said:

Hahaha yeah Alex no doubt!  There are an infinite number of possible combinations, and no company can be expected to test all of them.   And indeed, if a company did endeavor to start testing such things, inevitably customers would then start asking which set up sounds best, which would result in a much deeper rabbit hole to go down.  

Right. Those active optical cables are cheap and when they work, they are great. The Mikrotik cable is expected to work on the Mikrotik end, but isn’t guaranteed to work with an arbitrary endpoint — in this case the aether REGEN. It’s an SFP(+) cable so there is no expectation that it works in the EtherREGEN SFP port!

 

The fact that some SFP(+) modules work in some SFP ports is great but doesn’t mean that this will always work — and in this case it doesn’t. 
 

The safest way to connect a 10Gbe switch with a 1Gbe endpoint is either:

1) dual 10/1 SFP+) module on 10Gbe side and SFP module on 1Gbe

2) SFP module on 10Gbe side and 1Gbe side

 

If anyone wants go go outside of the specific modules that the manufacturers test and have compatibility then you need to do your own trials.

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

That being that 10GBe switches would really prefer to talk at that rate through their SFP+ ports, and if one wishes to install SFP+ transceivers in 1Gbe SFP ports it’s best that both ends be plain 1Gbe SFP.

I have been using 10Gbe switches with 1Gbe endpoints since 2015 and have not encountered any that don’t work perfectly well. Not all SFP/SFP(+) modules work will all devices. 

[jabbr]

22 hours ago, Duke40 said:

Truth be told, I struggle a bit conceptually with the whole SM being preferable to MM posts (just been following along the other posters who have more experience & have been grateful 🙏 for them taking the time to post their experience, which tends to favour SM in most threads). Yet, I'll give MM a proper go, if this MikroTik S+AO0005 does not work out tomorrow.

Anyone can pick either SM or MM and be happy with it. I don’t think there is a huge need to worry about it.

 

I use both but rewired my house in SM because a duplex SM cable can handle speeds >100Gbe whereas with MM you get into these complex and very expensive cable assemblies. Anyone who is having fiber run through your walls, I highly recommend SM. 

[Duke40]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

Anyone can pick either SM or MM and be happy with it. I don’t think there is a huge need to worry about it.

 

jabbr, Thank you for your comments ... I had a lot of audiophile nervosa about all this MM vs SM SFP modules, you (along with a couple of others) have helped to relieve it 👍.

[jsawyer09]

I've been reading this thread in particular with wide interest. To circle back to the original idea, rather than focus on the eR and modules, I'm going to give the FMC route a try but have a simple question about recommended best placement. My network setup is pretty straightforward, if not slightly different than many. 

 

I have a dedicated listening room with four separate 20a dedicated lines—all on the third floor. My networking components all reside in a utility room in the basement two floors away; we'll say about a 50ft distance if we go by the run of Ethernet from there through the walls to a keystone jack behind my audio rack. I live in the middle of nowhere, really, so we have to use a satellite Internet service. My networking equipment and their ancillary tweaks are as follows:

 

• Google Nest Router powered by a Teddy Pardo 15/2 LPS
• Ubiquiti Cube AC Modem powered by an Sbooster BOTW ECO MK2 (with 'satellite' LAN coming in the house to this)
• English Electric 8 Switch powered by a Paul Hynes SR4-12

Each of these are plugged into a Tripp-Lite strip that in turn is fed into a Topaz Ultra-Isolation Transformer (.0005pF) in a configuration that looks like this:

 

Wall receptacle > APC LE1200 (voltage regulator) > Topaz > Tripp-Lite PS-602-HG (strip) <—Hynes SR4/EE8 Switch; Pardo 15/2/Google Nest; Sbooster/Ubiquiti Cube

 

I also have two Baaske MI-1005 LAN Isolators in the mix, one between the Cube modem and Nest router, and the other from the EE8 switch to the in-wall Ethernet cable going to the Ethernet wall jack two floors up (from there I have an AQ Vodka from the jack to my streamer, a Naim ND5XS2 feeding a Chord Qutest DAC). All cabling is UTP Blue Jeans RJ45 cables.

 

After reading through many threads on the benefits of FMC, I thought I'd at least give it a go to see if it makes an improvement to what I already consider a well-isolated setup. It's cheap enough to try, plus I have a couple of extra LPSs I could use to power the FMCs (yes, I know not ideal, since they likely impart noise of their own). For reference, here is what I am going to try out (all from Amazon, no less):

 

• 2x TP-Link MC110CS FMCs
• Tripp-Lite (SM) Duplex Fiber Cable (SC/SC)
• 2x Jameco Reliapro 5v Regulated Liner Adapters (I also have an LPS-1.2 and a Teddy Pardo LPS I'll try if the Jameco don't reap any benefit) 

 

Apologies for the long-winded prelude, but for the benefit of answering I thought as much info as possible is warranted for the best response. So, aside from potential hazards in experimenting with FMCs, all of the debates of which I've read about here and elsewhere, where would be the most sensible place to have a run of these in the above chain; between the router and EE8 switch or from the EE8 switch to the in-wall LAN that leads to the dedicated room keystone wall jack? 

 

The FMC components are all coming tomorrow, so any feedback as to the best place to chain these is greatly appreciated!  

[jabbr]

20 minutes ago, jsawyer09 said:

I've been reading this thread in particular with wide interest. To circle back to the original idea, rather than focus on the eR and modules, I'm going to give the FMC route a try but have a simple question about recommended best placement. My network setup is pretty straightforward, if not slightly different than many. 

 

The only place where this makes a wit of difference is feeding the streamer. I understand that you are invested in power supplies but when using, for example, compliant 10Gbe networking equipment including switches, the power supplies are less important. Ideally the fiber is run directly into the endpoint -- the fitlet2 solution might be an excellent COTS option. I am unsure what information you are going to gain with the "experiment" you describe because its not what current best practice suggests but have fun!

 

In terms of the options you specifically asked about I am at a loss.