The Truth of "Computer Audiophile"

Paul R · February 16, 2015

Paul, let's just start over again please.

I see no need for a silly debate. The thread has been there and has come to an end as how I see it. But then there was Kelly's post which I could not understand at all and I responded to him in a way which has nothing to do with the subject at all. Read again (now you know it). Next though you see a 100 negatives in my post and start the subject again.

No need to.

Is that OK ?

Peter

Sure - I missed what you were reacting to I guess. The post by Kelly was just just being silly. It is "widely believed" that all men gravitate to the computer merely to watch porn. (The quotes indicate intense sarcasm...)

Peter, the sole thing that keeps me from adopting XXHighEnd and even a NOS1a DAC is the interface with XXHighEnd. I want my cake and to eat it too. Intuitive remote control my wife doesn't complain about. At this time, that means either JRemote or iTunes REMOTE.app.

-Paul

Tony Lauck · February 16, 2015

Hi Tony,
An interesting post.As someone not trained in computer science can I ask some questions.

If understandingcorrectly you don’t fully subscribe to the bits is bits argument unless theyare stored and laid out into the same chunks ? My uneducated analogy here beinglike a fragmented hard disc, the bits are the same but in different places? Isthis what you mean that the bits are not the same bits?

I don’t understandthis can you elaborate?

So metadata canaffect playback of the bits (and potentially sound different) ?

Different content asin metadata ?

If not too personalwhat is your background? Not asking for your ID,lol

Cheers

David

apologies for words melding together in post.Seems to be happening when text is transferred from OneNotes

Can the original and the copy ever sound different? Yes, they can and they do, at least in some circumstances. The most obvious example is where I play a file on one of my hard drives vs. copying the file to a RAM disk and playing the copy. If the file happens to be fragmented I can hear clunking noise due to disk seeks when playing from the spinning rust, no such noise when playing from the RAM disk. This is the most obvious example of audible differences where there is the least amount of controversy. With more subtle differences there will be arguments over the "reality" of the differences, not to mention the cause.

But yes, the bits "should" just be bits. With a better playback chain (e.g. more distance from disk to ears) I would have been forced to use more controversial examples.

A more interesting question is whether a copy of a file can ever sound better than the original. I believe I just gave an example of how this can be. Other cases would involve more detailed understanding of the differences between the original and the copy at the mechanism level, which may even involved details of how chips work and the device physics level. I was fortunate that the company I worked for did design at all levels of computer technology, so I had access to people who knew just about any detail that might be relevant.

Paul R · February 16, 2015

Paul,

I have many friends with the "$1500" type systems and I use their music selections as my indicator to determine if they have audiophile potential. So far, and this is close to 20 people, that answer has been "no". These folks that I know are listening to highly compressed Pop music usually in MP3 format. They play music for convenience usually in the background. As I asked each of them, not a single one of them ever; a) sits down and listens to an album, nor do they b) get excited about a new piece of music.

You may know some "$1500 system audiophile" folks but so far all of the folks I know who have "caught the audio bug" are well above $3K plus for their system with well over $500 tied up in music alone.

I think the difference between you and Peter, and me, is the point of entry for this hobby (not just a dollar figure but the commitment to actually listening to music).

It is in part, where we live.

Head up to PA and the Kutztown folk festival, the Appalachian Folk Fest in Indiana, PA., up to New Holland for the Spring Gulch folk festival, or the "big yuppie" Philadelphia Folk Fest or the FolkSong Society performances. I guarantee you will meet people there intensely interested in the music, and a subset of them will be audiophiles or wanna be audiophiles, mostly on a tight budget.

I currently live in Austin, and once one gets beyond the hipster culture that seems to be spreading like out of control weeds in the area, it seems like about every third person you meet is a struggling musician. Many of whom are also struggling audiophiles, really wanting the sound at their home. A whole lot of whom I have sent to one of our two local audio stores that will talk to people with limited budgets, and whom often walk away with starter Audiophile systems. For under a grand.

While yes, I do believe that audio is an expensive hobby, just like photography, reef keeping, or bicycles, the entry point is far far lower than people think.

I have seen award winning photos taken with an iPhone. Pico Reefs that can hold your interest for an hour without fail, and that cost less than a grand. Bikes that cost less than a grand as a reasonable entry point to cycles. And yes, audiophile systems that cost less than a grand. The common thread seems to be a dedication to the hobby- and in particular for audiophiles, it always seems to be a love of the music, as well as an appreciation of the equipment and dedication to get the best out of that equipment.

Just my $0.02.

-Paul

It just occurs to me I may be fond of the struggling set, because that is where the music is still held with awe inspiring importance in the people I meet. Not saying big budget audiophiles don't love the music too, but the intense love of the music, and the almost survival level desire to be able to listen to it anytime, with thrilling fidelity, is not as strong with them as it is with folks on limited budget.

Jud · February 16, 2015

It is in part, where we live.

Head up to PA and the Kutztown folk festival

It's not the type of "folk" you're thinking of, Paul. It's "volk," as in a celebration of Pennsylvania Dutch traditions. The only "audio" is when my old neighbor, Lester Miller, does the "calling" for the hoe-downs (square dancing) over a PA system.

Edit: Here!

Paul R · February 16, 2015

It's not the type of "folk" you're thinking of, Paul. It's "volk," as in a celebration of Pennsylvania Dutch traditions. The only "audio" is when my old neighbor, Lester Miller, does the "calling" for the hoe-downs (square dancing) over a PA system.

Edit: Here!

Well at least in the 90's there was music there! Saw Ezra and Keith there more than once. Back when they had hair, or at least when Ezra did.

Also ate a lot of good food!

-Paul

Jud · February 16, 2015

Well at least in the 90's there was music there! Saw Ezra and Keith there more than once. Back when they had hair, or at least when Ezra did.

Also ate a lot of good food!

-Paul

Interesting, because I was Lester's neighbor from 1990 - 2004 and used to attend the Folk Festival regularly (complimentary tickets from Lester). But we wouldn't spend all day there, so it's possible. (Edit: Possible that Trout Fishing in America, i.e., "Ezra and Keith," played there.)

tranz · February 16, 2015

....I want my cake and to eat it too.

-Paul

Completely off topic but I have never understood this saying. If you get a cake, why would you not eat it?

Jabs1542 · February 16, 2015

It is in part, where we live.

Head up to PA and the Kutztown folk festival, the Appalachian Folk Fest in Indiana, PA., up to New Holland for the Spring Gulch folk festival, or the "big yuppie" Philadelphia Folk Fest or the FolkSong Society performances. I guarantee you will meet people there intensely interested in the music, and a subset of them will be audiophiles or wanna be audiophiles, mostly on a tight budget.

I currently live in Austin, and once one gets beyond the hipster culture that seems to be spreading like out of control weeds in the area, it seems like about every third person you meet is a struggling musician. Many of whom are also struggling audiophiles, really wanting the sound at their home. A whole lot of whom I have sent to one of our two local audio stores that will talk to people with limited budgets, and whom often walk away with starter Audiophile systems. For under a grand.

While yes, I do believe that audio is an expensive hobby, just like photography, reef keeping, or bicycles, the entry point is far far lower than people think.

I have seen award winning photos taken with an iPhone. Pico Reefs that can hold your interest for an hour without fail, and that cost less than a grand. Bikes that cost less than a grand as a reasonable entry point to cycles. And yes, audiophile systems that cost less than a grand. The common thread seems to be a dedication to the hobby- and in particular for audiophiles, it always seems to be a love of the music, as well as an appreciation of the equipment and dedication to get the best out of that equipment.

Just my $0.02.

-Paul

It just occurs to me I may be fond of the struggling set, because that is where the music is still held with awe inspiring importance in the people I meet. Not saying big budget audiophiles don't love the music too, but the intense love of the music, and the almost survival level desire to be able to listen to it anytime, with thrilling fidelity, is not as strong with them as it is with folks on limited budget.

I admit I am in the DC area living inside the beltway so it does raise the price of things a bit. But it's all relative, these non-audiophile people I speak of (with "$1500 systems") all live in $1M+ homes and drive $100K cars. My conclusion was that they "didn't get it" and don't care, therefore I don't consider them anywhere close to being an audiophile.

Jud · February 16, 2015

Completely off topic but I have never understood this saying. If you get a cake, why would you not eat it?

Does this help? "I want to enjoy eating my cake, then still have my beautiful cake as well." This can be said of anyone who wants things that are necessarily mutually exclusive. So for example someone who would like a big house in the country with lots of land, but then after he gets it complains he is too far away from the city for things like concerts, wants to "have his cake [the house in the country] and eat it, too [the city conveniences like concerts]."

Paul R · February 16, 2015

Interesting, because I was Lester's neighbor from 1990 - 2004 and used to attend the Folk Festival regularly (complimentary tickets from Lester). But we wouldn't spend all day there, so it's possible. (Edit: Possible that Trout Fishing in America, i.e., "Ezra and Keith," played there.)

(Slapping forehead:: ) Or it could be I am mixing up Kutztown with Sellersville....

-Paul

Paul R · February 16, 2015

I admit I am in the DC area living inside the beltway so it does raise the price of things a bit. But it's all relative, these non-audiophile people I speak of (with "$1500 systems") all live in $1M+ homes and drive $100K cars. My conclusion was that they "didn't get it" and don't care, therefore I don't consider them anywhere close to being an audiophile.

They are not, just as you said.

tranz · February 16, 2015

Does this help? "I want to enjoy eating my cake, then still have my beautiful cake as well." This can be said of anyone who wants things that are necessarily mutually exclusive. So for example someone who would like a big house in the country with lots of land, but then after he gets it complains he is too far away from the city for things like concerts, wants to "have his cake [the house in the country] and eat it, too [the city conveniences like concerts]."

Thanks Jud. I guess I never saw a cake as an art object...I just want to immediately eat it. ?

Sorry to the OP for the diversion.

Ned Kelly · February 17, 2015

Paul, let's just start over again please.

I see no need for a silly debate. The thread has been there and has come to an end as how I see it. But then there was Kelly's post which I could not understand at all and I responded to him in a way which has nothing to do with the subject at all. Read again (now you know it). Next though you see a 100 negatives in my post and start the subject again.

No need to.

Is that OK ?

Peter

The meme was a atab at those of us who take ourselves far too seriously, and this constant navel gazing is a symptom of that. I completely get that you've dedicated a large slab of your life to this obsession, as have many here, but ultimately we're engaging in a little self-pleasuring combined with a dose of masochism IMO. My question is simply 'Does it really matter ?' - until Chris starts asking to see receipts before issuing a login and password, you will still have all manner of folk joining this board and posting at will. That said, I'm not prepared to let this go -

Let me take you back to your response to an earlier question re whether or not a good headphone system could conceivably be assembled for less than the arbitrary $1500 figure:

I can't judge about the price of a good headphone amp and to be honest I also can't judge about headphones, or worse - ear buts, because I myself can not regard this "challenging" so to speak. So maybe we can recognize that any speaker system is way way more difficult to get right, but it also will give way way more satisfaction and realism when it *is* right (whatever that exactly is). One example : standing waves. It is one of the profound exhibits of things being wrong, and with headphones you will not be bothered by it (hey, IEMs even less I'd say ). Of course we could draw the conclusion that thus headphones and such are always for the better compared to speakers, but ... I think that would be a wild conclusion.

No argument re speaker systems being hard to get right, and no argument that speakers do some things very well which headphones struggle to mimic - the laws of physics are still immutable AFAIK. I still view this comment as being incredibly dismissive and typical of a certain breed of audiophile who continues to believe that headphones are for kids - real men own speakers costing tens of thousands and that's the way it should be. I completely disagree, but because my speaker system cost a fraction of what I've spent for headphones and associated gear, I cant make any kind of valid comparison. In your universe, I might as well own a pair of iBuds and a smartphone - persona non grata.

Personally, that's fine with me, but I believe you ignore the younger newcomers to this hobby at the risk of finding yourself surrounded by a bunch of octogenarians lamenting the good old days. Enjoy.

PeterSt · February 17, 2015

Personally, that's fine with me, but I believe you ignore the younger newcomers to this hobby at the risk of finding yourself surrounded by a bunch of octogenarians lamenting the good old days. Enjoy.

Hmm ... Maybe you are putting words to my mouth or mind which never has been there and never will be there. So the sheer fact that I tell about not using headphones with next to that a maybe obsessive goal for life to get speakers right, makes you think that ...

No.

And please skip if you have seen enough BS from me. That really is fine.

I tell it more often : when I listen to music I never do that with closed eyes because the music gets into your head - like with headphones. This said differently : now all sounds good. Or again differently : by this means you (can) create your own illusion and all is actually fake.

Does this matter ? of course not. But if you want to improve your system you will only hear what is really going on if no illusions are created and instead the room etc. including its plants and chairs and everything plus the music playing, is overwhelming and you get the picture anyway. Especially if you are not really observing the music, don't be in the sweetspot and instead to the things you do.

Of course I am strange but it is just my means of the attempt to improve, which will never work by headphones for this reason alone. Not for me. And that there are some other reasons like the impossibility of feeling the music which in real life(/live) really is so, is something else. Each his own.

I hope this is a better translation than "he thinks headphones suck and thus no audiophile can be using headphones".

Apart from that someone thought to propose a headphone system because it would stay under 1500 but leave out the computer. Nice, but not really a good thing for a "computer" audiophile.

Ned Kelly · February 17, 2015

@PeterSt,

No argument that a computer is an essential part of the system, just as some form of turntable, tape drive or cd transport is an essential part of any 'non computer audiophile' system, but its not about the $1500 figure for me : its about the level of enjoyment. I'm not part of the 'scroe' crowd at Audiokarma - people who brag about their $15 find at Goodwill or wherever (free McIntosh amps left on the curb are my personal favorite when things get really thick over there) - but there has to be a middle ground particularly if Chris is prepared to base two of his CAPS v4 designs on the Intel NUC. I realise that there is more to both NUC-based designs than adding RAM and a hard drive, but they will still come in well under the price I paid for my 2014 MBP, esp Bundoran.

I also accept the point you made about the amount of work that goes into your software, particularly in an age where a lot of under-35s believe software should be free or very close to it (think iPad apps). I dont have an answer to that - people will either get it or they wont. I bought AO, configured a partition on my Mac Mini and did the configuration to get it all running but at the end of the day it was a bit too close to something like voyage-mpd (albeit with more tinkering) for my liking. I also own licences for Decibel, Bitperfect and JRMC 19 but I've largely given up switching from one to the other trying to find differences. There is a point where you just want to be able to find the music in your library and play it - simple as that.

Hope this clears up a couple of things from my earlier post - peace out.

esldude · February 17, 2015

Hmm ... Maybe you are putting words to my mouth or mind which never has been there and never will be there. So the sheer fact that I tell about not using headphones with next to that a maybe obsessive goal for life to get speakers right, makes you think that ...
No.

And please skip if you have seen enough BS from me. That really is fine.

I tell it more often : when I listen to music I never do that with closed eyes because the music gets into your head - like with headphones. This said differently : now all sounds good. Or again differently : by this means you (can) create your own illusion and all is actually fake.

Does this matter ? of course not. But if you want to improve your system you will only hear what is really going on if no illusions are created and instead the room etc. including its plants and chairs and everything plus the music playing, is overwhelming and you get the picture anyway. Especially if you are not really observing the music, don't be in the sweetspot and instead to the things you do.

Of course I am strange but it is just my means of the attempt to improve, which will never work by headphones for this reason alone. Not for me. And that there are some other reasons like the impossibility of feeling the music which in real life(/live) really is so, is something else. Each his own.

I hope this is a better translation than "he thinks headphones suck and thus no audiophile can be using headphones".

Apart from that someone thought to propose a headphone system because it would stay under 1500 but leave out the computer. Nice, but not really a good thing for a "computer" audiophile.

Come on Peter, you can get computers costing less than $200 which will play audio fine. So $1300 for all the rest and you don't think you can put together a heck of a headphone based system?

Think of the dinosaurs or you might become one.

PeterSt · February 17, 2015

but I believe you ignore the younger newcomers to this hobby at the risk of finding yourself surrounded by a bunch of octogenarians lamenting the good old days. Enjoy.

Another one protecting our kids. But don't be afraid, I think they hang out on other forums than this one; nobody needs to be afraid for me.

It is a good subject in itself though, because one has to start somewhere and to that regard things are quite different than when you were young. That is, I assume you are not one of those kids. So think of it ... what could "we" use for music when we were young ?

OK, I guess that wouldn't be much more expensive than a today's modern smartphone but there are a few differences;

First off, the access to the music is readily there these days. No such thing in the past. This is not only about the smartphone itself each kid has (can't survive without it) but also because of the music being just there everywhere. It's a bit of MP3 stuff, but I personally don't think that does much harm (we better first be able ourselves to discern from lossless). But now what music ??

Well, what I personally call the Billsh*tTop100. Unbelievable what a mess.

I coincidentally have such a kid, and all he does is complain himself. And not because I tell him it's all nothing, but because he thinks it is. "Dad, why am I not living in your age ?". Explicit complaint, seriously.

Now of course you think that today's kids sit back and listen to music, right ? Well, in that case you don't have those kids yourself, of that age. What age ? say in between 8 and 18. What *do* they do ? games.

Coincidentally last Sunday I was asking myself what the youngster of these days are doing and so I asked (he's 16). He is in a group of over 100 in his school (of the same lessons with mixed classes) and his answer was : 100% games. Btw, I wondered and asked because I don't see him doing anything else himself.

But, the 100% counts for boys. Girls chitchat on facebook. No real games for them.

This seemingly different little subject summarized : there's no escapes from the games. No single other hobby or enjoyment and even grouping together to be found. So I talked about how "we" all did that in the past, and that group ups for any kind of reason occurred each and every day. Always home too late and such.

Nothing of this happens today.

And surely no sitting back and listen to music.

This is different from being on your bicycle or in the bus and nothing to do. Then it is the other way around. Music is on now because what else to do. So sure it could happen. But only very theoretically because it still is so that when home, the first what's done is switch on the monitor and continue the game where it was left last night.

Again there's hope still, because ours regularly comes up with a "hey dad, but your Iron Man really shows more bass". No wonder when listening through his earbuds from his phone. But it also tells that he sneakily is building a repertoire of what he hears in the listening room. So, good.

I told it in between the lines somewhere in this thread : we gave him a "sub woofer". $350 and quite nice. Is there but is not used, despite his remark about the bass. And of course this was against all odds, because he really never ever will relax and sit down to listen for music. Still he exhibits all properties of the potential audiophile, possibly no wonder because of being in the middle of that throughout, and no matter he wears headphones for his games.

But he just doesn't have the spare time.

From another angle, and assumed that those kids do not receive a new phone every two years from their parents, there are choices to be made about the $. So what do we think ? will they spend their $ on a first $300 (headphone) amplifier or will they buy the new all-so-necessary smartphone ? No need to answer.

So ... hopelessly lost ?

I don't think so. At some stage for most the games will be out of their lives and I myself will bet that when our son lives on his own he will want some speakers in the living room and some stuff to drive them. And if there is the slightest doubt on whether he will have the $ for that, no sweat because numerous "old systems" are waiting for him. Can have it today just the same, but I just told the story.

So that is how it works in my view, and I'd say that for each kid with audio(phile) aspirations, born from audiofreaks him or herself, it will go like this. I too started out like that and when my father hadn't provided me some formerly used speaker drivers plus some knowledge and observing his own enthusiasm for audio, well, then probably my speakers as of now would have been quite smaller.

Maybe in your surroundings it all works differently.

Peter

Miska · February 17, 2015

As a 10+ teenager without a lot of money, only my source was a commercial product (although FM radio receiver was DIY). I built my own amps and speakers. I got amp schematics from Electronics & Wireless World magazine (designed for example by John Linsley Hood) and speaker designs from a local magazine where one guy was publishing designs including all the measurements.

Luckily library of Helsinki University of Technology (these days called Aalto University) was open to a schoolboy like me so I could go through those magazines and could access all kinds of electronics books and take photocopies of the parts I needed.

P.S. Just as reminder, there are audiophiles around the entire globe, average audiophile spending doesn't exceed $1500 everywhere.

PeterSt · February 17, 2015

Come on Peter, you can get computers costing less than $200 which will play audio fine. So $1300 for all the rest and you don't think you can put together a heck of a headphone based system?

Of course I can also put it differently. Or try to.

So remember, I was the one starting out with "audiophile" and that being about the sheer aspirations, so to speak. Now let's think back, and was I one myself ?

And this is part of the point (ehm, which point ??), I am not sure. For aspirations sure yes, but I knew that my few $100 system was in no way comparable with my father's.

Buy I will make it worse ... much worse;

I still have my fathers fine Leak tube amp and Leak speakers and over developed phono stage for his tweaked Thorens turntable and Ortophon arm and cartridge. Or his later Luxman amp and B&W whatever speakers. And so much more.

Not-on-par anywhere !

Crap. Just like my father always told about my own system when he felt I was ready to take that.

I hope he can't hear me.

So answer (see quote) : of course it can. But this thread was merely meant to be about how we "communicate" over such wild various systems, while it is sort of taken for granted that we all listen to the same (quality). So, quite difficult to do, this "communicating".

AlainGr · February 17, 2015

I remember when I was listening to music for hours and be alone of with one or two friends. We would not talk, just listen. At the times, I was going through the ritual of choosing an album, remove it from its sleeve, put it on the platter, clean it with a brush (Decca brush), then clean the stylus, start the thing, then deposit the stylus on the starting groove. All of this was demanding some attention. And taking time. I could have talked to a friend in the meatime, but mon concentration was on the preparation for the listening. There are other details but it mostly explains the state of mind.

Now that I have all my music on a hard drive, everyting has changed. I will listen to music, but not often in the "sweet spot". I do something else while listening to music. We often do this, either with the music at low level or the contrary, depending on our mood of the moment. There is a lot less of a ritual (or no ritual at all). It's not the same as it was. Music is often "sub related" to what we do in the meantime. Of course I can only talk for myself even if it looks otherwise...

I do use headphones when I want to listen to something that can be audiophile related or simply to listen to something on YouTube for example. Or serch for a song that I recenlty heard on the radio while driving to work or else.

But I have to admit that I take the headphones for convenience or to not disturb someone listening to a program on TV. Whenever I feel to listen to music, I prefer to use the speakers. It is more engaging (for me).

Not to say that this "should" be for others, just for me. And I find this very satisfying.

Having headphone + speakers is a matter of taste and convenience depending on the moment.

alfe · February 17, 2015

Can the original and the copy ever sound different? Yes, they can and they do, at least in some circumstances. The most obvious example is where I play a file on one of my hard drives vs. copying the file to a RAM disk and playing the copy. If the file happens to be fragmented I can hear clunking noise due to disk seeks when playing from the spinning rust, no such noise when playing from the RAM disk. This is the most obvious example of audible differences where there is the least amount of controversy. With more subtle differences there will be arguments over the "reality" of the differences, not to mention the cause.

But yes, the bits "should" just be bits. With a better playback chain (e.g. more distance from disk to ears) I would have been forced to use more controversial examples.

A more interesting question is whether a copy of a file can ever sound better than the original. I believe I just gave an example of how this can be. Other cases would involve more detailed understanding of the differences between the original and the copy at the mechanism level, which may even involved details of how chips work and the device physics level. I was fortunate that the company I worked for did design at all levels of computer technology, so I had access to people who knew just about any detail that might be relevant.

Is two rips with identical files stored in the same HDD may sound different?

Now that we started talking samples instead of bits

Jud · February 17, 2015

Is two rips with identical files stored in the same HDD may sound different?

Going right for the "more controversial examples," eh?

PeterSt · February 17, 2015

Can the original and the copy ever sound different? Yes, they can and they do, at least in some circumstances. The most obvious example is where I play a file on one of my hard drives vs. copying the file to a RAM disk and playing the copy. If the file happens to be fragmented I can hear clunking noise due to disk seeks when playing from the spinning rust, no such noise when playing from the RAM disk. This is the most obvious example of audible differences where there is the least amount of controversy. With more subtle differences there will be arguments over the "reality" of the differences, not to mention the cause.

Tony, improper grounding in the case of your example. That's all (there's to it ).

PeterSt · February 17, 2015

Is two rips with identical files stored in the same HDD may sound different?

Yes.

alfe · February 17, 2015

Yes.

Then both of us know the answer:)

The Truth of "Computer Audiophile"

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