The Truth of "Computer Audiophile"

[elcorso]

Going right for the "more controversial examples," eh?

 

I still marvel with certain questions.

 

If the answer is yes (or not), will this change anything?

 

If we have no much confidence in our own ears, or are not able to notice any difference, why ask?

 

Catholics are less culpable for their sins after confession?

 

Roch

 

PS / Please do not want any religious debate ...!

[Paul R]

Yes.

 

Nope.

 

-Paul

[Tony Lauck]

Tony, improper grounding in the case of your example. That's all (there's to it ).

 

In this case, the problem is not electrical. It's mechanical. The mechanical seek noises are audible even with my amplifiers powered off. But this "grounding" may just be a question of terminology. Indeed, the mounting of this hard drive seems problematical. However, I don't mind copying all my files to the RAM disk, since in the process I expand the FLAC format back to WAV. In addition, there are other software related issues that favor the copy process, which is very quick.

 

As to identical files stored on the same HDD, sounding diferent, no question. They can. This may be due to how they are stored (and amount of work the decoding circuitry requires) or it may be more mundane, just stored in different places on the drive or even that the file names are different and this is somehow affecting the software. I found the audible differences too ephemeral for simple experiments to resolve what was going on. I avoided the problem entirely by not playing music from hard drives or even solid state drives which can even be worse as even a micro SD card has an internal processor inside it and data gets moved about "beneath the sheets". Now that hard drives and solid state drives have caches inside them, and this may make the internal processing of two files that contain the same bits entirely different.

[alfe]

In this case, the problem is not electrical. It's mechanical. The mechanical seek noises are audible even with my amplifiers powered off. But this "grounding" may just be a question of terminology. Indeed, the mounting of this hard drive seems problematical. However, I don't mind copying all my files to the RAM disk, since in the process I expand the FLAC format back to WAV. In addition, there are other software related issues that favor the copy process, which is very quick.

 

As to identical files stored on the same HDD, sounding diferent, no question. They can. This may be due to how they are stored (and amount of work the decoding circuitry requires) or it may be more mundane, just stored in different places on the drive or even that the file names are different and this is somehow affecting the software. I found the audible differences too ephemeral for simple experiments to resolve what was going on. I avoided the problem entirely by not playing music from hard drives or even solid state drives which can even be worse as even a micro SD card has an internal processor inside it and data gets moved about "beneath the sheets". Now that hard drives and solid state drives have caches inside them, and this may make the internal processing of two files that contain the same bits entirely different.

 

Thank you Tony

[PeterSt]

In this case, the problem is not electrical. It's mechanical. The mechanical seek noises are audible even with my amplifiers powered off. But this "grounding" may just be a question of terminology.

 

Tony, LOL.

Ok, put your PC to the basement.

Yes, still laughing.

Anyway, I always take care of filling up a disk one time, and never delete files and next add to it. Not that this really defeats the remainder of your post, but the mechanical noise, yes.

[Tony Lauck]

Tony, LOL.

Ok, put your PC to the basement.

Yes, still laughing.

Anyway, I always take care of filling up a disk one time, and never delete files and next add to it. Not that this really defeats the remainder of your post, but the mechanical noise, yes.

 

It's something about that particular drive. I think it's loading and unloading the heads due to power management BS that the drive does on its own without regard to the OS. It's an Hitachi 4 TB drive. An Hitachi 500 GB drive right next to it is silent. Alas, the computer is already in the basement as are the speakers, etc... I could play off a NAS in a closet but I have found that playing files on a local disk sound better.

[alfe]

Nope.

 

-Paul

 

Wrong

[Paul R]

Wrong

 

 

(grin)

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

Thank you Tony

+1

[alfe]

(grin)

 

Wrong answer again:)

 

From the link diffractive read outs of optical disc:

 

"We conclude by reminding that the introduction of the DTD-tracking method in the CD-system was hampered by a signal instability that appeared when neighbouring track portions showed comparable information with a fixed mutual position over a distance that was within the bandwidth of the radial servo system. An example of such a problematic situation was found in the fixed digital pattern used to represent absolute silence on a CD audio disc. "

 

 

[Paul R]

Wrong answer again:)

 

From the link diffractive read outs of optical disc:

 

"We conclude by reminding that the introduction of the DTD-tracking method in the CD-system was hampered by a signal instability that appeared when neighbouring track portions showed comparable information with a fixed mutual position over a distance that was within the bandwidth of the radial servo system. An example of such a problematic situation was found in the fixed digital pattern used to represent absolute silence on a CD audio disc. "

 

 

 

So? I miss your point friend. I was just saying I wasn't going to argue with you.

 

Two bit for bit identical files will sound the same when played back over the exact same audio chain. I have to date, seen no verifiable or compelling evidence otherwise.

 

Oh, enough that I believe people may hear differences, and that the underling reason is not expectation bias or imagination. But I believe the reason will turn out to be something mundane and not exotic, and have nothing to do with the data, and nothing at all resembling the more fantastical explantions that have been put forth.

 

YMMV.

[alfe]

So? I miss your point friend. I was just saying I wasn't going to argue with you.

 

Two bit for bit identical files will sound the same when played back over the exact same audio chain. I have to date, seen no verifiable or compelling evidence otherwise.

 

Oh, enough that I believe people may hear differences, and that the underling reason is not expectation bias or imagination. But I believe the reason will turn out to be something mundane and not exotic, and have nothing to do with the data, and nothing at all resembling the more fantastical explantions that have been put forth.

 

YMMV.

 

Yep you are right your position is clear and no need to discuss that anymore:)

Hope that we can still discuss you are addiction to DSD:)

[Paul R]

Yep you are right your position is clear and no need to discuss that anymore:)

Hope that we can still discuss you are addiction to DSD:)

 

I love DSD. I especially love inexpensive, well built, DSD DACs. According to some, that makes me deranged, but I love them just the same. Bring on the doubters! Talk about wild explanations why two bit identical files do not sound the same? Just listen to the anti-DSD crowd for some real "don't that take the cake" explanations of why that pesky DSD is inferior to their beloved PCM! (grin)

 

-Paul

[alfe]

I love DSD. I especially love inexpensive, well built, DSD DACs. According to some, that makes me deranged, but I love them just the same. Bring on the doubters! Talk about wild explanations why two bit identical files do not sound the same? Just listen to the anti-DSD crowd for some real "don't that take the cake" explanations of why that pesky DSD is inferior to their beloved PCM! (grin)

 

-Paul

 

No wild explanation my daily job is to design PUH and drives and I can't throw all the informations in a public forum, as I said before I will not touch this subject again.

Pure DSD is superior to PCM for me, but transcoded PCM by JRiver..... I tried, bought a DAC specially for that...sound darker with less details... a tube sound:), but I learned one thing with time it's just matter of taste and everyone should respect that.

[Paul R]

No wild explanation my daily job is to design PUH and drives and I can't throw all the informations in a public forum, as I said before I will not touch this subject again.

Pure DSD is superior to PCM for me, but transcoded PCM by JRiver..... I tried, bought a DAC specially for that...sound darker with less details... a tube sound:), but I learned one thing with time it's just matter of taste and everyone should respect that.

 

Exactly correct!

 

Well, except about the transcoded DSD, but that is something that is true or false (or maybe) very much on a system by system basis.

 

-Paul

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

Pure DSD is superior to PCM for me, but transcoded PCM by JRiver..... I tried, bought a DAC specially for that...sound darker with less details... a tube sound:), but I learned one thing with time it's just matter of taste and everyone should respect that.

 

Exactly correct!

 

transcoded DSD, but that is something that is true or false (or maybe) very much on a system by system basis.

 

-Paul

 

Hi Alfe and Paul. That is interesting as I have never tried transcoded DSD on JRiver assuming it would be inferior based on, well, transcoding.

 

Pure DSD I find warmer and richer in the mids which I like but loses some of the transient snap, pace and drive of PCM. DSD overall a bit softer warmer and tube like (which I like but wondered whether is a colouration).The owner of Bricasti (as in my Bricasti M1 DAC) of ex mark levinson fame (I still have the 31.5 and 30.6) likes DSD for large acoustical spaces as he feels it retrieves more ambient detail but prefers pcm for studio produced music.

 

Back to transcoding, I have nearly always found the Sony Playstation sacd rips > high rez pcm to sound quite inferior to redbook pcm which further disinclined me to try transcoding on JRiver.I will give it a go if I can find the settings lol. Any thoughts on the whole transcoding thing?

 

Cheers

David

[alfe]

Hi Alfe and Paul. That is interesting as I have never tried transcoded DSD on JRiver assuming it would be inferior based on, well, transcoding.

 

Pure DSD I find warmer and richer in the mids which I like but loses some of the transient snap, pace and drive of PCM. DSD overall a bit softer warmer and tube like (which I like but wondered whether is a colouration).The owner of Bricasti (as in my Bricasti M1 DAC) of ex mark levinson fame (I still have the 31.5 and 30.6) likes DSD for large acoustical spaces as he feels it retrieves more ambient detail but prefers pcm for studio produced music.

 

Back to transcoding, I have nearly always found the Sony Playstation sacd rips > high rez pcm to sound quite inferior to redbook pcm which further disinclined me to try transcoding on JRiver.I will give it a go if I can find the settings lol. Any thoughts on the whole transcoding thing?

 

Cheers

David

 

Hi David,

 

If you give a try forget DSD 64 it's like listening to MP3 with tube amp:)

DSD 128 is better if you like coloured sound.

[EuroDriver]

Pure DSD is superior to PCM for me, but transcoded PCM by JRiver..... I tried, bought a DAC specially for that...sound darker with less details... a tube sound:), but I learned one thing with time it's just matter of taste and everyone should respect that.

 

Have you tried HQ Player for a PCM to DSD128 ? It has a lot of choices for filter settings

and 2 very good modulators, some combination of which seem to be able to please the great majority of listeners.

 

Running in HQ Player in a 2 PC setup with NAA brings up the SQ significantly, or a 1 PC setup using WS2012 + AO also brings PCM>DSD playback quality to the same ball park as native DSD depending on your DAC

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

Hi David,

 

If you give a try forget DSD 64 it's like listening to MP3 with tube amp:)

DSD 128 is better if you like coloured sound.

 

Thanks Alfe, will do. We a have listening session get together scheduled for next month and so may see what the group thinks of the comparison. AlexK should be there too. Its a long way from Paris (having recently been there as you know) but if you're in Sydney let us know. hey its a lot warmer here ;-)

Cheers

David

[Jud]

Have you tried HQ Player for a PCM to DSD128 ? It has a lot of choices for filter settings

and 2 very good modulators, some combination of which seem to be able to please the great majority of listeners.

 

Running in HQ Player in a 2 PC setup with NAA brings up the SQ significantly, or a 1 PC setup using WS2012 + AO also brings PCM>DSD playback quality to the same ball park as native DSD depending on your DAC

 

EuroDriver, I found offline upsampling to be higher quality (for some of the same reasons people report the NAA sounds better), and Miska agrees that all else being equal, offline upsampling should sound better than "on-the-fly." Of course Miska makes very fine filters/modulators, so the offline upsampler must be very good as well for comparable performance. For a number of good reasons, Miska does not want to make HQPlayer an offline upsampler.

[Paul R]

Hi David,

 

If you give a try forget DSD 64 it's like listening to MP3 with tube amp:)

DSD 128 is better if you like coloured sound.

 

Actually, DSD64 sounds great if native, but DSD128 sounds better in all cases, including up sampling.

 

There is no coloration at all in DSD to me, just a more pure sound, highly detailed and revealing, but without the digital edge. More like a very good turntable with a very good phono amp than anything else, but with the clarity of digital.

 

It's a wee bit of a conspiracy you know - if people keep repeating that DSD gives a colored sound, I expect they will convince people of it through shear repetition. ]8)

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

It's a wee bit of a conspiracy you know - if people keep repeating that DSD gives a colored sound, I expect they will convince people of it through shear repetition. ]8)

 

Hi Paul, certainly not my intention at all but know what you are saying. I do think it softens the treble a little, warms mids and blunts transients a bit, all giving a warmer darker mellower less harsh/edgy sound but trading off a sense of pace and rhythmic drive. I agree heartily it is a matter of taste and music genres preferred.I dont know which is more accurate - I listen to both. As I get older I am not as keen for ruthlessly revealing as much as beautiful sound that lets me get closer to the music.

[PeterSt]

hey its a lot warmer here ;-)

 

Careful for that wind though. Only a little, I heard.

[PeterSt]

I agree heartily it is a matter of taste and music genres preferred.I dont know which is more accurate - I listen to both.

 

Is that on a 1500++ or on a 1500-- system ?

Paul's is 1500--, some say.

 

I just try to keep it on topic ...

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

Is that on a 1500++ or on a 1500-- system ?

Paul's is 1500--, some say.

Peter youre such a naughty boy,but yes,just a shade or two over.

;-]