Jump to content
IGNORED

The Truth of "Computer Audiophile"


PeterSt

Recommended Posts

Apologies if it has already been raised.

 

Another way of approaching this is what would be the cost of the BEST audiophile system. Substitute ULTIMATE if you like but all terms are equally subjective....good,great, best. So, "best" as in a contender for your vote that it couldnt sound better given todays technology and expertise.

 

A second related question would be, given the law of diminishing returns, how close percentage wise do you think your/other systems come and for what price point.

 

I recently put together a system for a friend costing approx $50k. He started out with a $200k system delivered to his home by the dealer.Suffice to say I was not very popular with the dealer ( I didnt even spend all the 50k on his products).Now did it sound fantastic, well obviously to me it did, and to my friend. AlexK also heard it so if he is here he can comment. Did the 50k system sound as good as the 200k system.? In many ways I think it did,in some ways better. The 50k system was newer technology esp the DAC and the speakers better suited his room. Could a $1500 system sound as good? I dont think so. 80% as good....? Do I think the $50k system was as good as I have ever heard? No.

 

If I had $200K to spend on music, I'd have zero equipment and go to a lot of concerts and host numerous house concerts with no amplification. Isn't unamplified live music the ultimate audiophile experience?

Link to comment
I don't like the notion that in order to be a computer audiophile, or audiophile in general, one would have to be rich. I think that is also one of the primary reasons driving lot of young people away. There is a lot of good gear available at reasonable prices. For $1500 one certainly gets a lot better gear than iPhone plus the bundled earbuds, or a boombox.

 

I'm not sure about USD prices, but Sennheiser HD800 + iFi iDSD Micro or Resonessence Labs HERUS already makes a very good system with plenty of detail and is close to 1500€.

 

For less than 1500€ one can get Naim Mu-so which I already consider audiophile gear that could really attract young people / students to become audiophiles.

 

In my opinion, job of the playback software is to make sure one gets best possible performance out of even low cost DACs like iFi iDSD Nano and such.

 

 

The most expensive may not be even suitable. Bugatti Veyron may be a nice, fast and expensive car. But it would be completely useless in Finnish winter. I wouldn't buy it even if I had the money. I would rather buy Range Rover Sport instead. For summer, I have a motorcycle. :)

 

=+1

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

Link to comment
The LS50's are very nice speakers. They lack true low end extension of course. The old trade off between box size, low end extension and efficiency was to sacrifice efficiency in the LS50's. So you need a bit heftier amp than you might expect. The lack of true low end might be just the ticket for a townhouse or you might wish to add a sub should you get some LS50s.

 

Just for reference they worked beautifully with a Tact switching amp (no EQ just amp). They interacted poorly with a Wyred4Sound switching amp (the W4S is an ICE based design and the Tact an Equibit design) having elevated treble response that was not pleasing to listen to. The LS50 sounded very nice with a good 200 watt A/B stereo amp. You don't necessarily need 200 watts. Though a good 100 or 150 is likely a good idea to get the best of them.

 

I would suggest listening to some to see if the lower bandwidth is enough for you and if the limited dynamics of a small speaker leave you unsatisfied. If those aren't problems for you, they are otherwise excellent speakers and would work very well in a townhouse.

 

Agree on the Class D amp with the LS50. Mine play equally as well with tubes or a nice AB amp and for the bass, I just add a sub. Nice sounding little speakers and good bang for the buck.

The Truth Is Out There

Link to comment
The LS50's are very nice speakers. They lack true low end extension of course. The old trade off between box size, low end extension and efficiency was to sacrifice efficiency in the LS50's. So you need a bit heftier amp than you might expect. The lack of true low end might be just the ticket for a townhouse or you might wish to add a sub should you get some LS50s.

 

Just for reference they worked beautifully with a Tact switching amp (no EQ just amp). They interacted poorly with a Wyred4Sound switching amp (the W4S is an ICE based design and the Tact an Equibit design) having elevated treble response that was not pleasing to listen to. The LS50 sounded very nice with a good 200 watt A/B stereo amp. You don't necessarily need 200 watts. Though a good 100 or 150 is likely a good idea to get the best of them.

 

I would suggest listening to some to see if the lower bandwidth is enough for you and if the limited dynamics of a small speaker leave you unsatisfied. If those aren't problems for you, they are otherwise excellent speakers and would work very well in a townhouse.

 

Agree on the Class D amp with the LS50. Mine play equally as well with tubes or a nice AB amp and for the bass, I just add a sub. Nice sounding little speakers and good bang for the buck.

 

Although this may not be an example of who a "computer audiophile" is, it is a very fine example of the value of the forum Computer Audiophile - helpful advice for our friends in the hobby.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Link to comment

If the goal is to define what makes one an audiophile, I think that it is a matter of goals and intention. If one tries to define it by what equipment they use then it means only people who can afford to blow a shedload of $ on audio gear can be audiophiles, as Miska posted above (by the way, HD800s are $1500 all by themselves in the U.S.). It's probably easier to define who is not an audiophile. Someone who doesn't care about sound quality (to me at least) cannot be an audiophile. If one's only rig is an iphone and earbuds listening to 128kbps mp3s, probably not an audiophile. There goes about 95% of the population of the world, or more. I don't spend a bunch of $ trying to improve the sq of my setup because I don't have it, so I try to do it cost effectively. If you've looked at my profile and seen my equipment you know this. I also put my transducer $ overwhelmingly into headphones because that is the most cost-effective path to good sound. I still don't know that I'd self-identify as an audiophile, but a non-audiophile would most-assuredly do so, based solely on the amount of time and $ I've put into sq in relation to how much I have.

Vinyl is a hugely overpriced way to get flawed sound. Digital is an inexpensive way to get less flawed (though flawed nonetheless) sound.

Link to comment

I feel deemed to answer the question : what does a very good system cost. But with the notice that I already typed an hour or so on how these costs emerged, and how this in the end turned to "occur" the value as of now. But the story is a strange one, so I won't post that, but still have it when someone thinks it is interesting.

They key points in that story anyway : I did all myself, or are in full control of what was made (think from the technical POV and that from there others can make what I want).

What's also is in that story, is that when I listen to another one's system, regardless price, is sounds literally "crap" to me. I also say that I most definitely did not hear everyone's system, but say that I try very hard to make mine the best and cost no object (and only that can be explained by that post not posted).

 

So I'll count, without specifically mentioning which is which (but in logical sequence), but this is not important. It is "all" there is, including room treatment which is NOT there because the "quality" of the system makes that unnecessary (and this is the most explicit as a goal in itself).

 

In euros :

72 + 1975 + 1 + 4370 + 250 + 25300 + 1 + 1 + 400.

I forgot monitor, keyboard, mouse and cabling to those. But tablet for remote control is included. :)

So 32370 euros.

If I had an idea where this could be improved and it could be expressed in a commercial price, it would have been in there already. And commercial prices it is.

Btw, one of the 1 is the USB cable, while my own creation of that arrived this afternoon and who knows if that works out for the better, that 1 is going to be replaced by 200 or so. But not yet because I don't know yet. ;)

 

So commercial prices.

And to summarize my other post : these commercial prices emerged from someone exactly like you, who tried everything and all (though) with a clear strategy until he couldn't make it better, with possibly the difference opposed to you that the amount of $$ is to be regarded as sheer infinite. And now the fun is that this is exactly the reason why it costs 32370 "only".

But all feet firmly on the ground : it will be clear what the 72 is about; Now since I made all for myself and tell you that somewhere in between 15000 and 20000 hours is in that alone, we can't really say that it costed me 72 euros, right ? Still it is the price you pay. Counts for the other stuff just the same of course, but the strange thing I apply is that I make all for myself to the best of all my capabilities (which are limited too of course) to next "share" it. And this is how the price mentioned now is for real, ehm, for you. But even for me if you think further. Great fun.

 

Peter

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

Link to comment

The most expensive may not be even suitable. Bugatti Veyron may be a nice, fast and expensive car. But it would be completely useless in Finnish winter. I wouldn't buy it even if I had the money. I would rather buy Range Rover Sport instead. For summer, I have a motorcycle. :)

 

Miska, How about fitting a Veyron with some studded snow tires and giving it a go! After all it is 4 wheel drive.....:) Might make one hell of a WRC car. On second thought probably a bad idea....

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place". George Bernard Shaw.

Link to comment
Miska, How about fitting a Veyron with some studded snow tires and giving it a go! After all it is 4 wheel drive.....:) Might make one hell of a WRC car. On second thought probably a bad idea....

 

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Link to comment

Careful, because I have been a rally driver. ;)

That I drive an Audi is coincidence, and no I did not enjoy the free ice rally stuff when you buy one, sadly. I obtained mine illegally from some flooded harbor parking place in Finland ...

Btw, the owner of the dealership I bought it from, is by now two years "missing". Dangerous stuff.

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

Link to comment
Miska, How about fitting a Veyron with some studded snow tires and giving it a go! After all it is 4 wheel drive.....:) Might make one hell of a WRC car. On second thought probably a bad idea....

 

I have some doubts whether anybody makes studded tires in the correct size. Although biggest ones local manufacturer makes are 285/30R20 (quick Googling tells Veyron needs 285/30R18 and in 18" I see only 255/45R18). And the ground clearance is a bit too low really...

 

My bike goes 0 - 100 km/h in 3.7s at tiny fraction of the price, which is good enough for me... :)

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

Link to comment
I have some doubts whether anybody makes studded tires in the correct size. Although biggest ones local manufacturer makes are 285/30R20 (quick Googling tells Veyron needs 285/30R18 and in 18" I see only 255/45R18). And the ground clearance is a bit too low really...

 

My bike goes 0 - 100 km/h in 3.7s at tiny fraction of the price, which is good enough for me... :)

 

Motorcycles are to speed as headphones are to sound quality.

Vinyl is a hugely overpriced way to get flawed sound. Digital is an inexpensive way to get less flawed (though flawed nonetheless) sound.

Link to comment
Careful, because I have been a rally driver. ;)

That I drive an Audi is coincidence, and no I did not enjoy the free ice rally stuff when you buy one, sadly. I obtained mine illegally from some flooded harbor parking place in Finland ...

Btw, the owner of the dealership I bought it from, is by now two years "missing". Dangerous stuff.

 

Peter I thought Finns were the great rally drivers and the Dutch were the great cyclists...:) Probably just another misconception of the world that we Americans are so very good at...:)

 

Edit: Until the French won the last 12 WRC titles........

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place". George Bernard Shaw.

Link to comment

Haha, I sure didn't say that the Dutch are the best in Rally's. And out of all not me (best place in a WRC rally was 33 IIRC, though won the class).

 

And great cyclist ? maybe a few, some times. But someone mentioned beautiful girls on bicycles. Yes, could be ...

;)

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

Link to comment
Haha, I sure didn't say that the Dutch are the best in Rally's. And out of all not me (best place in a WRC rally was 33 IIRC, though won the class).

 

And great cyclist ? maybe a few, some times. But someone mentioned beautiful girls on bicycles. Yes, could be ...

;)

 

A class win is quite an accomplishment! Very cool.

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place". George Bernard Shaw.

Link to comment
Haha, I sure didn't say that the Dutch are the best in Rally's. And out of all not me (best place in a WRC rally was 33 IIRC, though won the class).

 

And great cyclist ? maybe a few, some times. But someone mentioned beautiful girls on bicycles. Yes, could be ...

;)

 

Did not do too badly this year in the best Rally in the world.....Dakar.

Link to comment
Did not do too badly this year in the best Rally in the world.....Dakar.

 

If it is OK with Peter as OP - tell us more!

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Link to comment
Motorcycles are to speed as headphones are to sound quality.

 

Nice. :)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Link to comment

Could the 25300 be the speakers? (Photos?)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

Link to comment

quote_icon.png Originally Posted by tranz viewpost-right.png

Did not do too badly this year in the best Rally in the world.....Dakar.

 

If it is OK with Peter as OP - tell us more!

 

Ho ho, now it looks like I was in there. I wished !

 

But for cars this year ? well, it was the best so far (what was it ? 4th or 5th, I already forgot). But it is all about the material, and those two Dutch finally had some. Already looking forward to next year; usually the Dutch copy their behavior. This contrary to Robby Gordon who is and remains a loner and very nice guy in my view, but always runs into bad luck - also about the material (who in the world is ever going to try a Hummer for this ?).

 

Bikes ? our best guy had his last Dakar this year. But always sub-top only. And, always that I remember, huge set backs because of "hours" of penalties. And then still top 10s always; actually quite good.

 

The trucks is another story. Have been good at that since Jan de Rooy. Won that quite some times, although this year I saw a big deterioration - somehow. Usually 5 or so in the top 10, and now only two I think. But then the Kamaz'es (material) are so crazily good with the suspension. Suspension, btw, which is provided by a Dutch company to about all of the competitors but always made on specification of the team.

 

So I think the Dutch are about speed skating. But doesn't work out much either, because "we" have become so good at it that others by now give up in advance and there's no (nice) competition left.

 

Btw, the only one I know of being an in-car audiophile must be The Stig. :)

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

Link to comment
quote_icon.png

 

 

 

Btw, the only one I know of being an in-car audiophile must be The Stig. :)

 

Peter I always wondered how he heard his music with the helmet on. Talk about a veil over the music....:)

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place". George Bernard Shaw.

Link to comment
Peter I always wondered how he heard his music with the helmet on. Talk about a veil over the music....:)

 

Those helmets have in-built speakers. This is already necessary to talk to each other because otherwise there would be no single way. Think something like 120dBSPL of the gearbox and rattling stones against the bottom. Besides, just necessary to protect from that super loud noise. You'd have no idea.

Anyway, The Stig undoubtedly has a very nice brand in there. I didn't hear him play decent music though. I'd put up Sultans of Swing or so. Typically music which makes you drive faster. :)

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...