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The Truth of "Computer Audiophile"


PeterSt

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Thanks, Jud. I have the Pioneers by Andrew Jones, that is what I am upgrading from. :-)

 

I'm not opposed to floorstanding speakers, just figured I'd get more value with bookshelf/standmounts.

 

That's true, in general, but the low end Vandersteens have their money in drivers and crossover more so than the cabinet. Those sock-covered monoliths are nothing to look at but they sure sound good!

 

I've not heard the LS50 but I have heard the similarly praised Revel M20. For about the same price, I'll take the Vandersteen 2Ce Sig II, thanks. The M20 is probably more transparent (depending on cabling, the Vandersteen can be a touch veiled) but the Vandersteen is flat out more musically engaging (in part because of it's better bass extension).

 

I've not heard the Vandersteen 1, but the 2s and 3s get my vote for best value in audio. Essentially, a fat slice of what's possible in high-end audio at a price many can afford.

Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables

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Gary, the first audio system I put together as a kid in the 70s was with a Sansui 7070 that I traded a used dirt bike to a guy that sorta fits your description....:) I still have that receiver and have loaned it to my nephew (16), along with some Infinity RSE's circa 1980, who is not buying into what the industry is selling kids his age. I figure if I can save one there is still hope!

 

Ah, the dirt bikes of the 1970's. If you could hang on to those, you would have been great at rodeos.

Win10 Sweetwater recording studio PC running JRMC > Soundcraft Ui24r 24-track digital mixer > JBL LSR308 via Magomi Balanced XLR cable pair

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You must be thinking of a different loudspeaker. The Ohm MicroWalsh Talls (as per my signature) were $1000 when I purchased them.

 

Oops, you must be talking about the originals ...

Sorry, I never thought of that.

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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I'm actually considering auditioning the KEF LS50, but am not so sure they are right for my room (I think I mentioned I am in a townhouse). I'm also considering the Wharfedale Jade 3s if I can find them.

 

The LS50's are very nice speakers. They lack true low end extension of course. The old trade off between box size, low end extension and efficiency was to sacrifice efficiency in the LS50's. So you need a bit heftier amp than you might expect. The lack of true low end might be just the ticket for a townhouse or you might wish to add a sub should you get some LS50s.

 

Just for reference they worked beautifully with a Tact switching amp (no EQ just amp). They interacted poorly with a Wyred4Sound switching amp (the W4S is an ICE based design and the Tact an Equibit design) having elevated treble response that was not pleasing to listen to. The LS50 sounded very nice with a good 200 watt A/B stereo amp. You don't necessarily need 200 watts. Though a good 100 or 150 is likely a good idea to get the best of them.

 

I would suggest listening to some to see if the lower bandwidth is enough for you and if the limited dynamics of a small speaker leave you unsatisfied. If those aren't problems for you, they are otherwise excellent speakers and would work very well in a townhouse.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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For value, I'll agree with beetlemania (and myself :) ) - see if you can listen to the Vandersteen 1Ci which is in your price range new, and/or listen to the 2 series and search for them used. I would look for the 2Ce, or the 2Ce Signature.

 

Thanks. I just looked and unfortunately the nearest dealer is near NYC. Sigh. I've been a bit leery of the used market because of the risk, but I guess I should get over that and look at the for sale portions of these boards.

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Thanks. I just looked and unfortunately the nearest dealer is near NYC. Sigh. I've been a bit leery of the used market because of the risk, but I guess I should get over that and look at the for sale portions of these boards.

 

In any case do listen to whatever you plan to buy...I find Vandersteens overly forward and bright-sounding.

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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In any case do listen to whatever you plan to buy...

 

Always the best course of action!

 

I find Vandersteens overly forward and bright-sounding.

 

That's a new one, for me. Perhaps you're accustomed to the sound of soft-domed tweeters?

 

The most common criticism I've read around the Vandersteen sound (Models 2 and 3 - the Sevens are beyond reproach) is that they're "too laid-back" (ie, the opposite of bright and forward). For myself, I found the mid-range to be very slightly veiled but was able to essentially eliminate that problem with a cable upgrade. At RMAF, Richard Vandersteen told me the mid-range driver has been upgraded since I bought my Sig IIs.

Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables

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Always the best course of action!

 

 

 

That's a new one, for me. Perhaps you're accustomed to the sound of soft-domed tweeters?

 

The most common criticism I've read around the Vandersteen sound (Models 2 and 3 - the Sevens are beyond reproach) is that they're "too laid-back" (ie, the opposite of bright and forward). For myself, I found the mid-range to be very slightly veiled but was able to essentially eliminate that problem with a cable upgrade. At RMAF, Richard Vandersteen told me the mid-range driver has been upgraded since I bought my Sig IIs.

 

I've been listening to Vandersteens and reading other people's impressions of them since 1989, and semente is the very first I can remember describing them as bright or forward. Doesn't mean they couldn't have been when he heard them. Would be interesting to know the rest of the system.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Never heard Vandersteens described as forward and bright in the last 25 years. If they err, it is being a bit smoothed over and warm sounding. I think what you heard had to be from the source recording or something else in the signal chain. It wasn't the speakers.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Never heard Vandersteens described as forward and bright in the last 25 years. If they err, it is being a bit smoothed over and warm sounding. I think what you heard had to be from the source recording or something else in the signal chain. It wasn't the speakers.

 

I think with the right stuff driving them, they lose the "smoothed over" sound and are accurate in the mids and highs, though it's not physically possible for them to be as fast as electrostats.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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I think with the right stuff driving them, they lose the "smoothed over" sound and are accurate in the mids and highs, though it's not physically possible for them to be as fast as electrostats.

 

Yep, my Ayre amplification makes them sing exceptionally well.

Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables

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I think with the right stuff driving them, they lose the "smoothed over" sound and are accurate in the mids and highs, though it's not physically possible for them to be as fast as electrostats.

 

Yes, I don't disagree at all. Nor do I mean to say they are "smoothed over" as a general part of their character. Just that if they err along the divide of a bit smooth or a bit etched from true neutrality, they are leaning toward the smoother side of life.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Also interested in LS50's. Would like to upgrade my home theater and replace an ancient set of Polk Monitor 5jr. I have a Rel Stratta iii to back them up, but the comment about lower dynamics with the small monitors concerned me. Hadn't considered that, and should be important in a HT. Thoughts? Maybe not an issue with the sub?

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Also interested in LS50's. Would like to upgrade my home theater and replace an ancient set of Polk Monitor 5jr. I have a Rel Stratta iii to back them up, but the comment about lower dynamics with the small monitors concerned me. Hadn't considered that, and should be important in a HT. Thoughts? Maybe not an issue with the sub?

 

Not an issue. It does depend on room size though. There is only so much "air" they will push so a smaller room is going to be better for a 5.1 setup with them.

David

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Apologies if it has already been raised.

 

Another way of approaching this is what would be the cost of the BEST audiophile system. Substitute ULTIMATE if you like but all terms are equally subjective....good,great, best. So, "best" as in a contender for your vote that it couldnt sound better given todays technology and expertise.

 

A second related question would be, given the law of diminishing returns, how close percentage wise do you think your/other systems come and for what price point.

 

I recently put together a system for a friend costing approx $50k. He started out with a $200k system delivered to his home by the dealer.Suffice to say I was not very popular with the dealer ( I didnt even spend all the 50k on his products).Now did it sound fantastic, well obviously to me it did, and to my friend. AlexK also heard it so if he is here he can comment. Did the 50k system sound as good as the 200k system.? In many ways I think it did,in some ways better. The 50k system was newer technology esp the DAC and the speakers better suited his room. Could a $1500 system sound as good? I dont think so. 80% as good....? Do I think the $50k system was as good as I have ever heard? No.

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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I don't like the notion that in order to be a computer audiophile, or audiophile in general, one would have to be rich. I think that is also one of the primary reasons driving lot of young people away. There is a lot of good gear available at reasonable prices. For $1500 one certainly gets a lot better gear than iPhone plus the bundled earbuds, or a boombox.

 

I'm not sure about USD prices, but Sennheiser HD800 + iFi iDSD Micro or Resonessence Labs HERUS already makes a very good system with plenty of detail and is close to 1500€.

 

For less than 1500€ one can get Naim Mu-so which I already consider audiophile gear that could really attract young people / students to become audiophiles.

 

In my opinion, job of the playback software is to make sure one gets best possible performance out of even low cost DACs like iFi iDSD Nano and such.

 

 

The most expensive may not be even suitable. Bugatti Veyron may be a nice, fast and expensive car. But it would be completely useless in Finnish winter. I wouldn't buy it even if I had the money. I would rather buy Range Rover Sport instead. For summer, I have a motorcycle. :)

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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I don't like the notion that in order to be a computer audiophile, or audiophile in general, one would have to be rich. I think that is also one of the primary reasons driving lot of young people away. There is a lot of good gear available at reasonable prices. For $1500 one certainly gets a lot better gear than iPhone plus the bundled earbuds, or a boombox.

 

I'm not sure about USD prices, but Sennheiser HD800 + iFi iDSD Micro or Resonessence Labs HERUS already makes a very good system with plenty of detail and is close to 1500€.

 

For less than 1500€ one can get Naim Mu-so which I already consider audiophile gear that could really attract young people / students to become audiophiles.

 

In my opinion, job of the playback software is to make sure one gets best possible performance out of even low cost DACs like iFi iDSD Nano and such.

 

 

The most expensive may not be even suitable. Bugatti Veyron may be a nice, fast and expensive car. But it would be completely useless in Finnish winter. I wouldn't buy it even if I had the money. I would rather buy Range Rover Sport instead. For summer, I have a motorcycle. :)

 

No argument but what does the best system cost.........not a matter of best value for money ,just the best

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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I don't like the notion that in order to be a computer audiophile, or audiophile in general, one would have to be rich. I think that is also one of the primary reasons driving lot of young people away. There is a lot of good gear available at reasonable prices. For $1500 one certainly gets a lot better gear than iPhone plus the bundled earbuds, or a boombox.

 

I'm not sure about USD prices, but Sennheiser HD800 + iFi iDSD Micro or Resonessence Labs HERUS already makes a very good system with plenty of detail and is close to 1500€.

 

For less than 1500€ one can get Naim Mu-so which I already consider audiophile gear that could really attract young people / students to become audiophiles.

 

In my opinion, job of the playback software is to make sure one gets best possible performance out of even low cost DACs like iFi iDSD Nano and such.

 

 

The most expensive may not be even suitable. Bugatti Veyron may be a nice, fast and expensive car. But it would be completely useless in Finnish winter. I wouldn't buy it even if I had the money. I would rather buy Range Rover Sport instead. For summer, I have a motorcycle. :)

 

Excellent post Miska.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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No argument but what does the best system cost.........not a matter of best value for money ,just the best

 

That is likely impossible to answer. I heard a nice $90k system. Nice as in mostly the best I have heard. It was moved to a new location. At first I could mostly match it for perhaps $3k if that $3k system was in a good room. This because the new room for the super excellent system was a terrible room.

 

Some years ago, my own subjective evaulation of lots of nice gear at the time over a short 2 year or so period I came to the conclusion that above a certain threshold high end gear was a 4 th power function. Meaning that to sound subjectively twice as good most gear would cost 16 times as much. Of course at some elevated level the curve likely steepens. My current impression with less exposure to current gear, and the fact there is lots more gear to consider, I believe in inflation adjusted terms the thresold for something that would be high end is lower. The curve may be steeper than a 4th power function for everything other than speakers. I think speakers are probably still about that until you get to a very elevated status indeed.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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I'm going way back in this thread to the definition of audiophile. I see so many replies to these threads and the time that we spend messing with hardware. When does anyone really listen to their music for the enjoyment? (Small lol). An audiophile is definitely obsessive!

 

When you are retired,(assuming there is no "ball and chain" to find jobs for you to do around the house all the time,) you often have plenty of time to do both.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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AlexK also heard it so if he is here he can comment.

David

A mutual friend suggested that throwing more money at a perceived problem isn't the way to go about it.

The room in question could have benefitted more from a little judicious reflection control too ?

I would have liked to have heard more in the surround capabilities of the $50K system too.

A way better than average system can even sound very 3 dimensional. The Bluray of Avatar has the potential to fill the whole room with sound from just 2 stereo speakers if the system is good enough. Likewise with RB CD tracks like "Don Dorsey-Ascent" The original CD track from Olivia Newton John _ Moth to a flame, is another good test track, provided that the room isn't too small. It needs to be wide enough to create the illusion of a proper anti clockwise circle, that goes way behind the speakers as well as well behind the listening position. If the room isn't wide enough, the circle becomes more of an ellipse.

D.M. has the original CD. Unfortunately, my copy became damaged, and the remaster is terrible in comparison.

 

Kind Regards

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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