Comment on DAC

[freesteve]

Never ceases to amaze me why so many DAC's have their power input so very close to the usb input. Very difficult to use some aftermarket power cords.

[gmgraves]

Never ceases to amaze me why so many DAC's have their power input so very close to the usb input. Very difficult to use some aftermarket power cords.

 

 

I can see where it might be. The answer, I think you'll find, is that the designers of these DACs probably weren't thinking about baby-leg sized mains cords when they laid-out their rear panels. With some DACs (like, for instance, the Benchmarks) such a cable, would literally be as big as the component itself. One might have to put a brick on top of the component to keep the cable from pulling it off the shelf!

[alexwgoody]

Not to mention that Benchmark (at least according to info on their own forum) doesn't believe that USB or power cables will enhance sound quality.

[esldude]

Not to mention that Benchmark (at least according to info on their own forum) doesn't believe that USB or power cables will enhance sound quality.

 

Yeah, what would they know?

[4est]

Power cable changes were very noticeable in their DAC1.

Not to mention that Benchmark (at least according to info on their own forum) doesn't believe that USB or power cables will enhance sound quality.

[Jud]

I can see where it might be. The answer, I think you'll find, is that the designers of these DACs probably weren't thinking about baby-leg sized mains cords when they laid-out their rear panels. With some DACs (like, for instance, the Benchmarks) such a cable, would literally be as big as the component itself. One might have to put a brick on top of the component to keep the cable from pulling it off the shelf!

 

The folks who designed the power cables I'm using for my DAC and amplification don't like "baby-leg sized mains cords" either. (Liked that description, by the way.)

 

I'm looking forward to seeing what a snubber circuit might do for my DAC, since it's not in a box yet and so is very convenient to work on.

[alexwgoody]

Power cable changes were very noticeable in their DAC1.

 

Benchmark doesn't seem to think so.

 

See the forum reply below:

 

"Hi Dennis,

 

Yes, the DAC1HDR would be suitable for either setup and sonically, 'calibrated' and 'variable' should sound the same.

 

Again, because of our UltraLock circuitry, aftermarket digital cables shouldn't alter the sound. However, analog cables can affect the sound but this depends on the source impedance and input impedance of devices used in the system. Differences with the Benchmark should be minimal as the output impedance of the DAC1HDR is very low. A power cord change on the Benchmark DAC should make little, if any difference. But, if you like, give it a try.

 

I'm pleased to know that your son is enjoying your DAC1USB. I'm sorry for you because you now have to replace it. But, I do have good news for you. We have reduced the price of the DAC1HDR to $1595. Now is a great time to add one to your system.

 

Best regards,

 

Rory Rall" (Emphasis Added)

 

Full Post Here: HDR DAC for Integrated amplifier | Benchmark Interaction

[maelob]

I am really happy with Benchmark customer service. They serviced my old plain Dac 1 in no time. By the way I use a Signal cable magic power digital and I am really happy with it.

[James1776]

I can see where it might be. The answer, I think you'll find, is that the designers of these DACs probably weren't thinking about baby-leg sized mains cords when they laid-out their rear panels. With some DACs (like, for instance, the Benchmarks) such a cable, would literally be as big as the component itself. One might have to put a brick on top of the component to keep the cable from pulling it off the shelf!

 

Not an exaggeration....Here was my solution to a PS Audio Power cord...

 

[gmgraves]

Not an exaggeration....Here was my solution to a PS Audio Power cord...

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]10533[/ATTACH]

 

I was just using the Benchmark stuff as a tongue-in-cheek example (because of the case size). I didn't mean to start a entire thread about iT (or actually believe that I would hit the nail this squarely)! But my point stands. I doubt seriously if any equipment manufacturer thinks about these aftermarket mains cords when laying-out the rear apron on their gear. Heck, lots of gear can't even accommodate the heavy Interconnects with large diameter wire and bulky RCAs that characterize many brands these days due to both clearance and weight issues.

[Boris75]

Not an exaggeration....Here was my solution to a PS Audio Power cord...

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]10533[/ATTACH]

 

Doesn't this lady cause some pretty disruptive vibrations in the circuitry? How about the gun?

[tranz]

Yeah, what would they know?

 

It is more the effect of having unshielded power cables (and USB) close to the analog audio cables and other sensitive bits. Whether the benefit is through a big candy snake or just some simple twisted power wiring with copper shield and foil, that is likely the same.

 

And if they would separate out that toroidal transformer from sitting right next to the sensitive gear, it would make another improvement. But they have to build to a price point, so you do what you can I guess.

 

It is one of the reasons I moved to two box DACs as listening fatigue was lowered when the EMI field of the power supply could be distanced away from analog cables and sensitive electronics. The voltage that is fed to the second box is a lot lower and thus the EMI field is far smaller.

 

Cheers

[esldude]

It is more the effect of having unshielded power cables (and USB) close to the analog audio cables and other sensitive bits. Whether the benefit is through a big candy snake or just some simple twisted power wiring with copper shield and foil, that is likely the same.

 

And if they would separate out that toroidal transformer from sitting right next to the sensitive gear, it would make another improvement. But they have to build to a price point, so you do what you can I guess.

 

It is one of the reasons I moved to two box DACs as listening fatigue was lowered when the EMI field of the power supply could be distanced away from analog cables and sensitive electronics. The voltage that is fed to the second box is a lot lower and thus the EMI field is far smaller.

 

Cheers

 

I have commented about this before. And realize it won't be the same for all setups as it varies from place to place. But I have checked cables for picking up EMI and it isn't nearly the issue people make it out to be in cases I have looked at it. Some of this equipment isn't getting these very low even noise floors if it were. Granted not all equipment gets those.

 

I once took some interconnect and placed it next to a high power switching supply for a PC which was heavily loaded and removed from the case. Got nothing a few inches away. Got a couple squiggles at -120 db right next to the supply. Wrapping it 3 times around the supply which was indeed putting out noise, you did get some spikes in noise into the - 80 db range. The big bonus was going to balanced cable. Wrapped 5 times around the supply and I got nothing. You do get garbage at much higher frequencies, but none of that seemed to make it to the analog output and didn't seem to get into a balanced cable.

[Paul R]

Tempest for Eliza (This one was fun in the early 2000's)

 

(This one was great fun in the early 1980s, better with a PDP 11/45 though. )

 

And today, you can do the same with an HDMI cable.

 

I have commented about this before. And realize it won't be the same for all setups as it varies from place to place. But I have checked cables for picking up EMI and it isn't nearly the issue people make it out to be in cases I have looked at it. Some of this equipment isn't getting these very low even noise floors if it were. Granted not all equipment gets those.

 

I once took some interconnect and placed it next to a high power switching supply for a PC which was heavily loaded and removed from the case. Got nothing a few inches away. Got a couple squiggles at -120 db right next to the supply. Wrapping it 3 times around the supply which was indeed putting out noise, you did get some spikes in noise into the - 80 db range. The big bonus was going to balanced cable. Wrapped 5 times around the supply and I got nothing. You do get garbage at much higher frequencies, but none of that seemed to make it to the analog output and didn't seem to get into a balanced cable.

[esldude]

Well last time I ran programs on a PDP8 was 1979, and a few years later on a PDP11.

 

So I guess that would prove nothing in regard to this topic.

 

Further whether you can do that with HDMI I don't know. Even if you could, tune it in on a AM radio and listen to it, guess what? It might not effect the output of a nearby DAC whatsoever.

 

EMI is out there, is it the problem imagined? I don't think so, but I never said it wasn't there.

[mayhem13]

The folks who designed the power cables I'm using for my DAC and amplification don't like "baby-leg sized mains cords" either. (Liked that description, by the way.)

 

I'm looking forward to seeing what a snubber circuit might do for my DAC, since it's not in a box yet and so is very convenient to work on.

 

Look on ebay for a used oscilliscope and see for yourself instead of asking your ears to do more than evolution equipped them to do. Lol

[tranz]

I have commented about this before. And realize it won't be the same for all setups as it varies from place to place. But I have checked cables for picking up EMI and it isn't nearly the issue people make it out to be in cases I have looked at it. Some of this equipment isn't getting these very low even noise floors if it were. Granted not all equipment gets those.

 

I once took some interconnect and placed it next to a high power switching supply for a PC which was heavily loaded and removed from the case. Got nothing a few inches away. Got a couple squiggles at -120 db right next to the supply. Wrapping it 3 times around the supply which was indeed putting out noise, you did get some spikes in noise into the - 80 db range. The big bonus was going to balanced cable. Wrapped 5 times around the supply and I got nothing. You do get garbage at much higher frequencies, but none of that seemed to make it to the analog output and didn't seem to get into a balanced cable.

 

Thanks for the details. I wish I had a scope and the know-how to operate one.

 

Balanced has worked wonders for me too. It should null out noise it picks up on the way.

 

Completely agree that it is very setup dependent. With my old speakers I had a Benchmark and it was not until I got more sensitive speakers that all this became an issue for me. Sometimes I wish I still had my old ones. Painful and expensive...

[tranz]

The folks who designed the power cables I'm using for my DAC and amplification don't like "baby-leg sized mains cords" either. (Liked that description, by the way.)

 

Makes sense since the weight of those baby-leg cords pull on the connection and thus can cause arching, which is one of the key things of a good powercord...a solid connection.

 

Cheers

[Paul R]

Well last time I ran programs on a PDP8 was 1979, and a few years later on a PDP11.

 

So I guess that would prove nothing in regard to this topic.

 

Further whether you can do that with HDMI I don't know. Even if you could, tune it in on a AM radio and listen to it, guess what? It might not effect the output of a nearby DAC whatsoever.

 

EMI is out there, is it the problem imagined? I don't think so, but I never said it wasn't there.

 

In a crabby mood today? RFI is a nasty litttle problem with cables. Electrical noise is a PITA in a DAC. I fail to see hy you think a declaration from you about what is ans isn't so is authorative in this area. It is interesting, but far from authorative.

[goldsdad]

In a crabby mood today? RFI is a nasty litttle problem with cables. Electrical noise is a PITA in a DAC. I fail to see hy you think a declaration from you about what is ans isn't so is authorative in this area. It is interesting, but far from authorative.

 

How about a respectful and less aggressive tone to your comments? 3 out of the 5 quoted sentences are uncalled for and, in fact, illustrate your complete miscomprehension of esldude's attitude. There was not the slightest suggestion that he considers himself an authority. He used the phrases "I guess", "I don't know", "it might" and "I don't think so".

[Jud]

Look on ebay for a used oscilliscope and see for yourself instead of asking your ears to do more than evolution equipped them to do. Lol

 

Used oscilloscope = $$

Snubber circuit = less than $10 worth of parts

 

Understanding anything useful about how to use what the oscilloscope is telling me = weeks of careful study

Snubber circuit = Believing John Swenson and lots of old hands at DIY Audio know what they're doing with a simple circuit after years of careful study

 

Snubber circuit = (if John and others are to be believed) relative immunity to any sonic changes caused by interaction between bad power cord design (according to John, as likely to be characteristic of expensive cords as cheap ones) and the transformer in the DAC

Oscilloscope = Whatever it tells me, uncertainty as to whether I'm understanding it correctly and whether my setup is capable of yielding the necessary measurements (since usually one wants a measurement setup to be capable of at least 10x better resolution than the device under test, and in this case the device under test would be part of the measurement setup)

 

So the cost/benefit and hassle factors are way, way over on the side of the snubber circuit.

[James1776]

Doesn't this lady cause some pretty disruptive vibrations in the circuitry? How about the gun?

 

The gun is an old knockoff of an Ethan Allen pepperbox from about 1850 and the lady is languidly sampling wine, close to well recorded music, pizza, cheeseburgers, floozies and beer as life's greatest pleasures.

[NOMBEDES]

Floozies and Beer, ah to be young again.

[4est]

Floozies and beer aren't just for the young!

Floozies and Beer, ah to be young again.