Why isn't the high-end industry doing more to save itself?

[sandyk]

Keeping the digital signal chain long, the analog short, and having an active crossover are my main requirements to any audio system. Ideally everything should be digital until after the crossover, of course. .

 

Given that many people are still unable to get optimum digital performance from their PCs at present, so that it clearly outperforms affordable CD players, and that many people are reporting even marked SQ differences between USB cables for example,and others are even reporting audible differences between Cat.5 and Cat 6 cables,it should be obvious to most that digital technology still has a long way to go before it can completely replace analogue techniques.Proponents on the digital side, are on the whole also ignoring the marked differences between the various source components, even BluRay players when used purely as digital transports.

No matter how good the rest of the chain is, G.I.G.O ! There is far too much attention to the output side presently.

Add to that the mains pollution that high powered digital amplifiers more often than not cause, which has been reported many times to degrade the performance of source components, unless a lot of work is done on the mains side to reduce these problems.Try for example putting an AM mains radio anywhere near the mains leads of these amplifiers.

The words "anti social" come to mind here when some DIYers construct these amplifiers without due regard to legislated emission requirements.I think that some experienced loudspeaker people may also have reservations about brute force digital nethods to force drivers to do things that they clearly have problems doing, and were not designed to do.

One day it will happen, but it's still in it's infancy despite what many may wish to believe.

Alex

[Paul R]

That statement is not true in my experience. Other than the few extreme examples that have been posted, do you happen to have specifics?

 

In fact, you see specifications discussed in almost every review, particuarly in pubs like Stereophile, and yes, even here on CA, where Chris has sent out gear to the lab for measurements.

 

I think you are making a very large generalization there that turns out to be untrue in many many specifics. But I am willing to be convinced otherwise.

 

-Paul

 

 

It’s ironic to hear audiophiles complaining about a company not publishing specifications. The specifications of the most exquisitely expensive equipment are virtually identical specifications to equipment costing an order of magnitude less. The additional cost is justified by the claim that it isn’t possible to measure the obvious superiority of the more expensive equipment. The typical review reinforces this disregard of measured specifications. You never see specifications discussed but you see such terms and coloration and soundstage.

[The Computer Audiophile]

I would love to see high end companies and dealers offer solutions like DigiPete frequently talks about. The ability to A/B two completely different types of systems would be great for consumers. Choice is a good thing.

 

I think a cool way to move into some of this is for manufacturers to offer items like crossover upgrade kits etc... Replacing a $50,000 speaker is a tough pill to swallow. Changing parts of it to optimize performance is something people would try. I'd love to bi-amp my TAD CR1 speakers with an active crossover.

 

DSP needs a better publicist :~)

It can be really neat when done well.

[Paul R]

Well, in this case, Chris would need to fork up a few grand to get that unit precisely measured in a lab. Instead, he clearly said the review focused on how the unit sounded in his listening room.

 

I appreciate reviews like that, and have no trouble with them- they are clearly labeled as what they are and make no pretense to be something else. But I do see your point. I also know how much a good lab costs, and how time consuming it can be.

 

Again, I see this as a clearly different situation than what you described, but I can understand why you may not. Just have to agree to disagree on that one I suppose.

 

I do expect John Atkinson will get his probes on one of these soon, and reliable measurements will be available. At least he will if PS Audio has any brains.

 

Paul

 

 

 

Here's one example. The most recent DAC review on this site doesn't mention a single measurement specification. No distortion, no signal to noise, no frequency response, no nothing. Only vague and descriptive terms such as “tighter and delineated base”, “high frequencies into much sharper focus” when discussing the vendor’s “Digital Lens”, whatever that might be.

 

In fact, it was sort a lost opportunity. The “digital lens” may be nothing, the equivalent of a baker bragging his bread contains flour. It could be something truly unique and interesting. There's no wat to tell. There isn’t a hint in either the vendor’s literature or in the review.

[ringenesherre]

One day it will happen, but it's still in it's infancy despite what many may wish to sr

Alex

 

Hi Alex,

 

I obviously disagree with most of your points - especially I believe that reclocking can give a BIGO in a chain. But we don't have to argue about this - as Paul says, we can just agree to disagree on this.

 

But your above statement is in my opinion both true and false. Yes, the market and most products in this direction are in its infancy. The hifi industry has mostly been sleeping so far with their hands deep in the sand. But on the other hand some companies are already offering digital-to-the-amp in mature product lines.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[sandyk]

Hi Peter

i would like to see someone with heaps of experience in the speaker area chime in about any perceived pitfalls with digital equalising of speakers. I have a gut feeling , having seen a friend using analogue techniques and separate driving amplifiers, that you would need to be very judicious with the amount and type of equalisation used.I would prefer myself to at least initially improve the room itself.

Regards

Alex

[mayhem13]

Hi Peter

i would like to see someone with heaps of experience in the speaker area chime in about any perceived pitfalls with digital equalising of speakers. I have a gut feeling , having seen a friend using analogue techniques and separate driving amplifiers, that you would need to be very judicious with the amount and type of equalisation used.I would prefer myself to at least initially improve the room itself.

Regards

Alex

 

The Hifi industry IMO will never embrace an all active speaker solution as by design, said speaker system would virtually eliminate all of the variables and plug and play tweeks that 'audiophiles' love....and crave. One of the base components of today's 'hi end' systems is the large chassis discreet output power amplifier. One only needs to flip through the system pages on AudioGon to see massive pairs of Mono amplifiers on stands complete with uber expensive power cords and speaker interconnects to know what I'm talking about.

 

As a speaker designer, I can comfortably say that the passive crossover network is the most detrimental part of the entire signal chain. The HiFi community often refers to the advantage of burn in, but in the case of the passive crossover the rule of the day is burn out as components within the network begin to decay from the first day current is passed through them. All stark contradictions on so many levels, but a neccessary 'evil' to unlock the secrets of hi end audio?

[sandyk]

mayhem13

I was of course referring to you and hoping you would contribute here.

Tell me the way to get apart my old DCM QED 1As, and I will replace those Xover components pronto .(grin)

Kind Regards

Alex

[chg]

Not at all. Lexicon's slick web page with its liberal scattering of the right buzzwords may have convinced the person to buy it. He/she may have auditioned both but the higher pricetag and more boutique brand name may have convinced him/her psychologically that it did actually sounds better. Obviously a totally unbiased or blind A/B test against an Oppo would not show a difference. So audio or video quality isn't actually the factor for anybody that brought the Lexicon. So if it isn't about the quality of audio and video performance at all... then what are the reasons people brought the Lexicon?

 

Are even audiophiles not immune to clever and subtle marketing? Or do we only purchase our high-end goods solely on our golden ear brilliance..??

 

The relevance of this to this thread, is that I believe being less well known and thus exclusive is part of a marketing strategy. The more exclusive gear you want to own - the more they can charge you for it.

 

Like I said, you're suggesting (and assuming) that every Lexicon buyer knew of the Oppo as an option, A/B'd against the Oppo, were fooled into believing the Lexicon was better, and chose the Lexicon for the name and higher price only.

 

Besides a few BR players and the very rare Lexicon/Oppo example your "status symbol and bragging rights" generalization is just wrong. A Hyundai is not a Mercedes, a Casio is not a Rolex, a Kodak is not a Leica, and a Yamaha AVR is not a Burmester. There are some people who are just bitter towards those who can afford higher end gear and don't want to see the difference.

[Paul R]

I bet that one of the biggest issues with people going to largescale active speakers is not the technology at all. It is a huge reluctance to plug speakers into a power outlet.

 

You can bet it is with my wife.

 

Paul

 

The Hifi industry IMO will never embrace an all active speaker solution as by design, said speaker system would virtually eliminate all of the variables and plug and play tweeks that 'audiophiles' love....and crave. One of the base components of today's 'hi end' systems is the large chassis discreet output power amplifier. One only needs to flip through the system pages on AudioGon to see massive pairs of Mono amplifiers on stands complete with uber expensive power cords and speaker interconnects to know what I'm talking about.

 

As a speaker designer, I can comfortably say that the passive crossover network is the most detrimental part of the entire signal chain. The HiFi community often refers to the advantage of burn in, but in the case of the passive crossover the rule of the day is burn out as components within the network begin to decay from the first day current is passed through them. All stark contradictions on so many levels, but a neccessary 'evil' to unlock the secrets of hi end audio?

[mav52]

One only needs to flip through the system pages on AudioGon to see massive pairs of Mono amplifiers on stands complete with uber expensive power cords and speaker interconnects to know what I'm talking about. ;/QUOTE] you do know that dealers also put their stuff on this site to try to sell and lets not forget the massive amount of DAC pages which is supposed to be the "it product" for listening enjoyment. I would never rely on Audiogon to base an industry position or the direction on hi-Fi.

[mav52]

I bet that one of the biggest issues with people going to largescale active speakers is not the technology at all. It is a huge reluctance to plug speakers into a power outlet.

 

You can bet it is with my wife.

 

Paul

why would that be an issue. we plug everything into a power outlet. 15 or 20 amp wall outlets ( I happen to have 20 amps in my rooms that I use for audio. It's no different than plugging in your TV/projector/amps/DAC/subs/Fridge pool pumps etc.. . Power is power you either have dirty power or clean power and lets not forget protected power and there are a lot of ways to ensure you have cleaned and protected your equipment although impossible from a direct hit by mother nature but I don't know anyone that is hesitant about plugging an active speaker in a wall. IF people were this reluctant to plug in large active speakers there would be no recording of music ( recording room, sounds and mixing rooms and concerts come to mind.)

[spdif-usb]

As for the Apple crack, well, to each their own. I could point out that a lot of folks here own and use Macs, iPads, and iPhones and would not willingly use only a Windows PC if they happen to have a choice. (grin)

Judge says Apple's 'smoking crack' with giant witness list | Apple - CNET News

[Audio_ELF]

I bet that one of the biggest issues with people going to largescale active speakers is not the technology at all. It is a huge reluctance to plug speakers into a power outlet.

Ironic really after the EU had such a problem with banana plugs as you could connect them to power sockets in most of mainland Europe. :-)

 

Eloise

[mav52]

if people are putting banana plugs into electrical sockets well, they really don't need to be messing with anything that uses electrical power.

[DigiPete]

The Hifi industry IMO will never embrace an all active speaker solution as by design, said speaker system would virtually eliminate all of the variables and plug and play tweeks that 'audiophiles' love....and crave. One of the base components of today's 'hi end' systems is the large chassis discreet output power amplifier. One only needs to flip through the system pages on AudioGon to see massive pairs of Mono amplifiers on stands complete with uber expensive power cords and speaker interconnects to know what I'm talking about.

 

As I said before in my long post:

 

It takes the balls to go against the tides.

It takes the brains to do it right.

It takes the money to be able to pull it off.

 

I am fully aware that the world is full of people frightened of change, and yet here we are at CA that has taken on a life of it's own.

 

Younger consumers will not be as afraid and/or biased as the old schoolers, they will choose what they see as best value.

A move that rolls the changes from upper mid-fi into high-end will probably be the most successful.

Mid-fi consumers seems more open to change and number of units are higher facilitating low prices.

That means that the partners in such a project needs to be willing to span from mid-fi to high-end.

 

 

As a speaker designer, I can comfortably say that the passive crossover network is the most detrimental part of the entire signal chain. The HiFi community often refers to the advantage of burn in, but in the case of the passive crossover the rule of the day is burn out as components within the network begin to decay from the first day current is passed through them. All stark contradictions on so many levels, but a neccessary 'evil' to unlock the secrets of hi end audio?

 

It is beyond me why speaker manufacturers do not offer active X-overs as add-on sales.

Digital X-overs with build in room correction would be the next move.

Companies like B&W or TAD would be obvious candidates.

[DigiPete]

I bet that one of the biggest issues with people going to largescale active speakers is not the technology at all. It is a huge reluctance to plug speakers into a power outlet.

 

You can bet it is with my wife.

 

Paul

 

 

If the world was all women, we would still live in caves.

 

If the world was all men, we would have self-destructed by now.

 

 

The art is to move ahead, and then get spouse approval by including her concerns in the design.

[DigiPete]

if people are putting banana plugs into electrical sockets well, they really don't need to be messing with anything that uses electrical power.

 

 

If people are putting banana plugs into electrical sockets well, they really need active speakers!

[4est]

As I said before in my long post:

 

It takes the balls to go against the tides.

It takes the brains to do it right.

It takes the money to be able to pull it off.

 

I am fully aware that the world is full of people frightened of change, and yet here we are at CA that has taken on a life of it's own.

 

Younger consumers will not be as afraid and/or biased as the old schoolers, they will choose what they see as best value.

A move that rolls the changes from upper mid-fi into high-end will probably be the most successful.

Mid-fi consumers seems more open to change and number of units are higher facilitating low prices.

That means that the partners in such a project needs to be willing to span from mid-fi to high-end.

 

 

 

 

It is beyond me why speaker manufacturers do not offer active X-overs as add-on sales.

Digital X-overs with build in room correction would be the next move.

Companies like B&W or TAD would be obvious candidates.

 

Luck is also a factor, and when it is your money on the line it matters!

 

As for the digital active route, I agree that it should be better- there are many potential advantages to bi/tri amping. Then again, there is am order of magnitude more things that can (and do) go wrong. As for Paul's plug comment, he is spot on. Most people would want to see wireless speakers, not speakers with power cables, digital connections AND analog connections. Most of the world is not fully digital, and even then there are issues with AV inclusion and multi channel digital interfacing.

[Paul R]

I didn't say it made sense, but it is an issue. All the old stories (or experiences!) of speakers blowing up and all the magic smoke getting out and so on. There is no understanding of the amount of current and power flowing down a speaker cable from a powerful amp feeding current hungry speakers, but there is an intuitive understanding that it is supposed to be a lot less than the (potentional) power flowing from an electric socket.

 

And of course, from an audiophile view, power location, quality, and conditioning is an expense that has to be considered.

 

Not to mention the extra cables being extended over the floor, through the wall, or wherever - on top of the signal cables.

 

This is not necessarily something evaluated strictly as a cost/return basis. Who wants extra cables running around their living room?

 

-Paul

 

 

 

why would that be an issue. we plug everything into a power outlet. 15 or 20 amp wall outlets ( I happen to have 20 amps in my rooms that I use for audio. It's no different than plugging in your TV/projector/amps/DAC/subs/Fridge pool pumps etc.. . Power is power you either have dirty power or clean power and lets not forget protected power and there are a lot of ways to ensure you have cleaned and protected your equipment although impossible from a direct hit by mother nature but I don't know anyone that is hesitant about plugging an active speaker in a wall. IF people were this reluctant to plug in large active speakers there would be no recording of music ( recording room, sounds and mixing rooms and concerts come to mind.)

[Paul R]

Below speaks a young man. Age and wisdom will be yours eventually, probably beaten into your head with a hard solid object by a most refined but exasperated lady somewhere.

-Paul

 

 

If the world was all women, we would still live in caves.

 

If the world was all men, we would have self-destructed by now.

 

 

The art is to move ahead, and then get spouse approval by including her concerns in the design.

[4est]

Now that I think about it, this whole threads seems to belittle the thoughts and intentions of most of the high end dealers and manufactures that I know about. A lot of what I am seeing here are people with a limited paradigm wondering why it is that everyone does not get on board with their view. There are some very solid reasons why others do not pursue active monitors and external active crossovers. For instance, I have to wonder how many of these posters have tried to set up an active three way system? Things like crossover slopes and frequencies are not something one can readily just calculate. The calculations are starting points. The knowledge and expertise required to tune them in is beyond most people from what I have seen. Using room correction to "adjust" this would be polishing a turd with similar results. My opinion of course...

[mav52]

If the world was all women, we would still live in caves.

man where are your facts and your historical proof for such a lame statement. So I take it your saying all women are dumb, stupid and not worth the water in their bodies, well I for one know you would not be here if it wasn't for a women. So go back into the cave. Wife's yes need to have a say unless the audio nut is a narcissistic creep that looks down on women...

[REShaman]

man where are your facts and your historical proof for such a lame statement. So I take it your saying all women are dumb, stupid and not worth the water in their bodies, well I for one know you would not be here if it wasn't for a women. So go back into the cave. Wife's yes need to have a say unless the audio nut is a narcissistic creep that looks down on women...

 

mav52, really! Is someone taking himself too seriously?

 

Is it possible DigiPete is NOT offering those remarks you refer to literally-as-truth, but as hyperbole or an exaggeration or from a stereotypical perspective to suggest another perspective.

 

Or are you pulling his metaphor?

 

(no disrespect ;-} )

Richard

[Audio_ELF]

Below speaks a young man. Age and wisdom will be yours eventually, probably beaten into your head with a hard solid object by a most refined but exasperated lady somewhere.

-Paul

Exactly Paul: Why do you think we find marble rolling pins superior to wooden ones...