Why isn't the high-end industry doing more to save itself?

[spdif-usb]

Once the cost of storage in portable players is low enough that virtually unlimited GB of downloaded hi-res material can be accommodated, I think you'll see hi-res downloads becoming common from the large commercial sellers.

The "other" problem with that is it still won't sound any better unless they specifically remaster the whole shebang.

[spdif-usb]

I also believe, and not just in relation to audio, the more exclusive or expensive an item....the higher the perception of the items performance.

I think I already suggested the same.

[spdif-usb]

Those are Blu Ray players. They offer nothing to sound quality that can justify their price premium, and better video quality and features can always be obtained from an affordable HTPC.

Fixed typo, sorry about that.

[Audio_ELF]

Those are Blu Ray players. They offer nothing to sound quality that can justify their price premium, and better video quality and features can always be obtained from an affordable HTPS.

My (personal) experience is that the Oppo BDP95 and the Cambridge 751BD (the units I have experience with) both can offer good sound at a similar level to a similar priced CD player. They have the advantage of also working as UPnP streamers and bluray players.

 

Of course I don't know your reference point...

 

The specific example of the Lexicon was where Lexicon put an Oppo player in an expensive looking box and charged 6 times (IIRC) the cost.

 

Eloise

[spdif-usb]

Eloise,

 

The Oppo BDP-95 makes for an excellent Blu Ray player. But it has a noisy cooling fan and, according to what I have read, stereo music playback still isn't gapless unless you resort to burning your own (recordable) optical discs. On top of that, a similarly priced separate stereo DAC will just sound better.

For smooth video playback, people can use MediaPortal as a frontend for Media Player Classic HomeCinema, as well as for foobar2000, or they can use XBMC, etcetera etcetera. There's tons of good info available on this subject at Doom9.net - The Definitive DVD Backup Resource. There's some quite surprising stuff out there, too IMO (such as LAV Splitter and MadVR renderer, just to give you some examples).

It doesn't take that much deep knowledge to build your own HTPC, either. Some cooling fans can operate at speeds as low as 700 rpm or even slower, and can be inaudible at listening position. The brand called ASUS makes passively cooled PCIe graphics cards for use in an HTPC, and these cards support HDMI 1.4 also. Add some mild underclocking on the CPU and choose a good silent aftermarket CPU cooler, as well as parts that don't generate much heat (a CPU with a low TDP value is always favorable), and that's basically it.

[Audio_ELF]

Mostly I will agree to differ with you...

 

I would take issue with one point...

"On top of that, a similarly priced separate stereo DAC will just sound better."

Perhaps this is true, but a DAC by itself does nothing. Price comparison must be DAC plus a source. And it goes back to my earlier point: not many people (beyond audio or av hardcore) want a computer in their living room.

 

Eloise

[spdif-usb]

Price comparison must be DAC plus a source. And it goes back to my earlier point: not many people (beyond audio or av hardcore) want a computer in their living room.

Exactly. People don't want a computer in their living room, because they haven't got a clue what even a cheap HTPC can be made to look like nowadays. Or they hate fiddling around with computer parts and software settings. Or both. So, instead of choosing the kind of tech that'll bring high end sound to the table, they buy a more affordable, mainstream, all-in-one solution that just works right out of the box.

[sandyk]

I have heard a friend's Oppo BDP95 through my own Class A SS system, and although it's analogue out is way above average, it sounded considerably better used with coax SPDIF Out into my highly modified DAC playing high res material from a Corsair Voyager USB memory stick, rather than similar material from a DVD-A. Fan noise in this unit was not obvious.

A BDP93 (now superseded) should give similar results when used in this fashion and does not need a fan.

It does of course do a fine job as a BluRay player.

Alex

[Paul R]

The BP-103 is about ready to come out at $499 USD, so the BP-105 can't be far behind.

 

The BP-105 will also have two HDMI inputs and be able to be used as an external ESS Sabre based DAC. Might make a great core for an AV system, replacing the typical PrePro with a single Oppo.

 

-Paul

 

 

I have heard a friend's Oppo BDP95 through my own Class A SS system, and although it's analogue out is way above average, it sounded considerably better used with coax SPDIF Out into my highly modified DAC playing high res material from a Corsair Voyager USB memory stick, rather than similar material from a DVD-A. Fan noise in this unit was not obvious.

A BDP93 (now superseded) should give similar results when used in this fashion and does not need a fan.

It does of course do a fine job as a BluRay player.

Alex

[Blake]

Other than the slow demise of the high-end bricks n' mortar shops (which is a crying shame), I assert that there has never been a better time to be an audiophile or a music lover. In terms of gear, we are getting better sound for equal or less money than in the past.

 

Even more important is the music. Accesibility to new bands/unknown or little known artists has never been better and despite what the gloom and doom types prefer to believe, the quality and variety of music available for purchase or simply for listening without buying has never been better. If you would have told me back in the 80's that I would have the possibility of picking and choosing what tracks I wanted to buy (without having to buy the whole album), or the ability to listen to the music before purchasing it, I would have never believed it.

 

Why all the negativity? I just don't get it.....

 

Be happy music lovers, these are great times we are living in!

 

P.S. and to those that think the young ones don't care about sound quality, well, who do you think is responsible for the recent resurgence in vinyl?? I can tell you it is not my generation (I am 45). Give thanks to them young-un's!

[sandyk]

The BP-103 is about ready to come out at $499 USD, so the BP-105 can't be far behind.

Hi Paul

Yes ,I was aware of that. As usual in Australia,we are being charged quite a bit more for the 93 or 103, with AU$629 the cheapest price for the AU model. (official distributor's price is AU$649) As they appear to use a universal SMPS, how can they justify the price difference simply for different firmware to match the ridiculous Zoning requirements ?

The official distributor also supplies an optional PCB for defeating zoning, so it's a farcical situation.

I can't imagine there are any other major differences between versions, although I may be mistaken.

Kind Regards

Alex

 

P.S.

At $499 I would have ordered one.

[mav52]

Other than the slow demise of the high-end bricks n' mortar shops (which is a crying shame), I assert that there has never been a better time to be an audiophile or a music lover. In terms of gear, we are getting better sound for equal or less money than in the past.

 

Even more important is the music. Accesibility to new bands/unknown or little known artists has never been better and despite what the gloom and doom types prefer to believe, the quality and variety of music available for purchase or simply for listening without buying has never been better. If you would have told me back in the 80's that I would have the possibility of picking and choosing what tracks I wanted to buy (without having to buy the whole album), or the ability to listen to the music before purchasing it, I would have never believed it.

 

Why all the negativity? I just don't get it.....

 

Be happy music lovers, these are great times we are living in!

 

P.S. and to those that think the young ones don't care about sound quality, well, who do you think is responsible for the recent resurgence in vinyl?? I can tell you it is not my generation (I am 45). Give thanks to them young-un's!

 

Not sure where you live but in Orlando all the nice audio shops are gone with the exception of Electronic Creations

and the high end installer groups to service the Bay Hill, Sweetwater, Goldenoak, Isleworth and Lake Nona areas and others richy rich folks. My neighbor works at your local Beastie Buy In Winter Park and he notes according to their records, ipod devices are here and gone in days and the cheaper laptops. As far as young kids buying vinyl I really don't see a lot of it going on under the age of 30. I'm 60 and I pick up an album every now and then as I just can't let my Micro Seiki BL-99V table go to waste. Miami, FL. still has some high end audio shops, but you had better carry more than one wallet to shop there.

[Kiwi2]

The Oppo BDP-95 makes for an excellent Blu Ray player. But it has a noisy cooling fan and, according...

 

The point of my post wasn't to discuss the merits of Oppo blu-ray players, but as an example of the importance of a brand to be exclusive. Did Lexicon really need to sell it for 6 times the price of the 83 for simply putting their own case around it? Or is that high price an integral part of their brand marketing identity?

 

What does the premium pricetag of that Lexicon unit buy you? Superior audio or video quality? No. It's just a Oppo 83. What it buys you is exclusivity. Something you can put in your signature for bragging rights and cred value in hi-fi forums. Something that is different to the well-known mass-market components and is something that Joe sixpack average that lives across the street has never heard of and he will be truly impressed when he finds out how much you paid for it and he will think it must be really really good! It buys you a feeling of superiority when you are listening to your music late at night and thinking of all those other people in your neighbourhood listening to their common mass produced rubbish that is made for the masses. How you pity those poor misguided fools while you sit there being one of the elite.

[chg]

The point of my post wasn't to discuss the merits of Oppo blu-ray players, but as an example of the importance of a brand to be exclusive. Did Lexicon really need to sell it for 6 times the price of the 83 for simply putting their own case around it? Or is that high price an integral part of their brand marketing identity?

 

What does the premium pricetag of that Lexicon unit buy you? Superior audio or video quality? No. It's just a Oppo 83. What it buys you is exclusivity. Something you can put in your signature for bragging rights and cred value in hi-fi forums. Something that is different to the well-known mass-market components and is something that Joe sixpack average that lives across the street has never heard of and he will be truly impressed when he finds out how much you paid for it and he will think it must be really really good! It buys you a feeling of superiority when you are listening to your music late at night and thinking of all those other people in your neighbourhood listening to their common mass produced rubbish that is made for the masses. How you pity those poor misguided fools while you sit there being one of the elite.

 

You're assuming that the buyer knows that the Lexicon is an Oppo 83 and claim that he would buy anyway. Knowing that a Lexicon is an Oppo 83, I doubt anyone would simply buy for the name. Generally, "premium pricetag" does give you superior quality, or, superior reliability/customer service/aesthetics/resale value/etc. The last half of your post is a pretty silly generalization.

[mayhem13]

You're assuming that the buyer knows that the Lexicon is an Oppo 83 and claim that he would buy anyway. Knowing that a Lexicon is an Oppo 83, I doubt anyone would simply buy for the name. Generally, "premium pricetag" does give you superior quality, or, superior reliability/customer service/aesthetics/resale value/etc. The last half of your post is a pretty silly generalization.

 

I have to disagree with you here as I believe many people purchase based on the name brand whether it's audio or anything else. Those purchases are most often based on the mfgrs reputation. I've never researched the Lexicon/Oppo debacle but if it's true speaks tons on Lexicon's ethics and certainly would effect their reputation.

 

As to price usually reflects quality or performance, I don't know if anyone could make a case either way so for me, I'd still err on the side of caution and be sure there's not a more value oriented option available, steering clear of marketing of possible.

[chg]

I have to disagree with you here as I believe many people purchase based on the name brand whether it's audio or anything else. Those purchases are most often based on the mfgrs reputation. I've never researched the Lexicon/Oppo debacle but if it's true speaks tons on Lexicon's ethics and certainly would effect their reputation.

 

As to price usually reflects quality or performance, I don't know if anyone could make a case either way so for me, I'd still err on the side of caution and be sure there's not a more value oriented option available, steering clear of marketing of possible.

 

True, but I was more referring specifically to the Lexicon/Oppo example and the generalizations made.

 

People buy based on brand name for a variety of reasons (mostly, very legitimate reasons), but I don't agree with Kiwi2's proposed reason.

 

Agree with the Lexicon assessment, and, fortunately, I think a rare event.

[Jud]

I have to disagree with you here as I believe many people purchase based on the name brand whether it's audio or anything else. Those purchases are most often based on the mfgrs reputation. I've never researched the Lexicon/Oppo debacle but if it's true speaks tons on Lexicon's ethics and certainly would effect their reputation.

 

As to price usually reflects quality or performance, I don't know if anyone could make a case either way so for me, I'd still err on the side of caution and be sure there's not a more value oriented option available, steering clear of marketing of possible.

 

Re Lexicon/Oppo, yep, it's true, and yep, it has affected their reputation. They are the example trotted out as to the silliness of non-blinded listening for evaluation purposes in particular, and audiophiles in general.

 

Price/performance, I agree with you, but of course there are lots of folks who do things differently. My brother's more expensive Beemer is in the shop a whole lot more than his less expensive Lexus ever was, but he's a happy man for having switched. Go figure.

[Audio_ELF]

The point of my post wasn't to discuss the merits of Oppo blu-ray players, but as an example of the importance of a brand to be exclusive. Did Lexicon really need to sell it for 6 times the price of the 83 for simply putting their own case around it? Or is that high price an integral part of their brand marketing identity?

 

What does the premium pricetag of that Lexicon unit buy you? Superior audio or video quality? No. It's just a Oppo 83. What it buys you is exclusivity. Something you can put in your signature for bragging rights and cred value in hi-fi forums. Something that is different to the well-known mass-market components and is something that Joe sixpack average that lives across the street has never heard of and he will be truly impressed when he finds out how much you paid for it and he will think it must be really really good! It buys you a feeling of superiority when you are listening to your music late at night and thinking of all those other people in your neighbourhood listening to their common mass produced rubbish that is made for the masses. How you pity those poor misguided fools while you sit there being one of the elite.

The big thing is that Lexicon caused a huge negative problem for other companies when they did this.

 

People now looking at (for example) the Primare player (or the Ayre and others) and see that it's based on the Oppo (93/95 platform in this case) and say ... oh look they are just doing a Lexicon. It takes a lot of hard fight from Primare for people to see that they have done more than "putting an Oppo in a nice box".

 

Eloise

[Richard Dale]

The big thing is that Lexicon caused a huge negative problem for other companies when they did this.

 

People now looking at (for example) the Primare player (or the Ayre and others) and see that it's based on the Oppo (93/95 platform in this case) and say ... oh look they are just doing a Lexicon. It takes a lot of hard fight from Primare for people to see that they have done more than "putting an Oppo in a nice box".

 

Eloise

 

That may be true, but I don't know why we are talking about all the 'plastic disk' stuff. Maybe you need plastic disks for seeing films (movies), but I don't think an average member of the public expects to have to use them to listen to music anymore. Even if you want to buy and RIP CDs, it is getting harder and harder to find them and actually buy CDs, either CD shops are closing or the selections in the shops that still exist are getting smaller all the time.

 

But there is a lot of good value HiFi equipment out there and I think some people like Steven Mejias at Stereophile do a good job at evangelising it, and making it seem fun and hip to younger people. I think someone, somewhere needs to prime the pump and make the demand for better HiFi equipment be driven by having lots of High Resolution music (ie better than CD) at low prices. And also someone needs to stimulate a demand for High Resolution music by ensuring that lots of people can get to hear high quality good value audio systems, and be amazed by what they hear. It is a chicken and egg thing maybe, but neither the record labels or the HiFi manufacturers seem to be able to pull it all together and provide something so compelling that people will want to spend money on.

[4est]

Re Lexicon/Oppo, yep, it's true, and yep, it has affected their reputation. They are the example trotted out as to the silliness of non-blinded listening for evaluation purposes in particular, and audiophiles in general.

 

Price/performance, I agree with you, but of course there are lots of folks who do things differently. My brother's more expensive Beemer is in the shop a whole lot more than his less expensive Lexus ever was, but he's a happy man for having switched. Go figure.

 

That is an extreme example, and not indicative of the industry as whole.

[spdif-usb]

The point of my post wasn't to discuss the merits of Oppo blu-ray players, but as an example of the importance of a brand to be exclusive. Did Lexicon really need to sell it for 6 times the price of the 83 for simply putting their own case around it? Or is that high price an integral part of their brand marketing identity?

 

What does the premium pricetag of that Lexicon unit buy you? Superior audio or video quality? No. It's just a Oppo 83. What it buys you is exclusivity. Something you can put in your signature for bragging rights and cred value in hi-fi forums. Something that is different to the well-known mass-market components and is something that Joe sixpack average that lives across the street has never heard of and he will be truly impressed when he finds out how much you paid for it and he will think it must be really really good! It buys you a feeling of superiority when you are listening to your music late at night and thinking of all those other people in your neighbourhood listening to their common mass produced rubbish that is made for the masses. How you pity those poor misguided fools while you sit there being one of the elite.

I agree with you that exclusivity doesn't warrant anything but exclusivity, although I am guessing even that depends on one's definition of exclusivity. What's in a name? (What's in a Naim?...).

Personally, I, decided to look for the better sound quality first. My (subjective) opinion steered me far away from the more popular-known brands and made me discover ones that, to me at least, appear to be always very heavily focusing on hi-tech innovation. That IMO is what "high end" ought to be all about in the first place.

[Paul R]

I agree with you that exclusivity doesn't warrant anything but exclusivity, although I am guessing even that depends on one's definition of exclusivity. What's in a name? (What's in a Naim?...).

Personally, I, decided to look for the better sound quality first. My (subjective) opinion steered me far away from the more popular-known brands and made me discover ones that, to me at least, appear to be always very heavily focusing on hi-tech innovation. That IMO is what "high end" ought to be all about in the first place.

 

Which is pretty cool I think. "Hi End" means different things to different people. Worse, people change their thinking about "Hi End" over time. There is, fortunately, plenty of room for people to think differently and still have plenty of common ground in our hobby.

 

Names are just labels, but labels tell us things about the products. At least they do in most cases, the Lexicon being an almost absurd example of when that is untrue. Some folks see only the extreme example, and in doing so, miss all the other value there.

 

-Paul

[mayhem13]

Interestingly, my purchasing priorities have changed over the years, counter to what has changed in my life

 

As a younger man, performance was top priority and price of little concern. Now that I am older and more financially capable of spending more, I set a price cap. Regardless of performance, if it costs too much, then I simply ignore it regardless

 

I also look at support...considering availability of service and warranty terms. Also chassis construction and materials. Maybe because I plan to hold on to things longer...less upgraditus.

 

I bet McIntosh sales would be a good indicator of where the HiFi market is today. Anyone have access to annual sales reports? Probobly public domain somewhere, I just don't know where to look.

[Paul R]

They are owned by the same group that owns or at least has a large chunk of Denon, Marantz, and Boston Acoustics. D+M Holdings out of New Jersey, I think.

-Paul

 

 

Interestingly, my purchasing priorities have changed over the years, counter to what has changed in my life

 

As a younger man, performance was top priority and price of little concern. Now that I am older and more financially capable of spending more, I set a price cap. Regardless of performance, if it costs too much, then I simply ignore it regardless

 

I also look at support...considering availability of service and warranty terms. Also chassis construction and materials. Maybe because I plan to hold on to things longer...less upgraditus.

 

I bet McIntosh sales would be a good indicator of where the HiFi market is today. Anyone have access to annual sales reports? Probobly public domain somewhere, I just don't know where to look.

[mayhem13]

They are owned by the same group that owns or at least has a large chunk of Denon, Marantz, and Boston Acoustics. D+M Holdings out of New Jersey, I think.

-Paul

 

Correct Paul......which just had a big restructure and divested some lines......tried to get some financials but the company is privately held. Did find the big profit year was 2002 and I get the impression it's been a steady decline since. I remember when Harmon/JBL bought up everyone for pennies on the dollar including Infinity which was pretty Hi end in the speaker industry at the time.....more indicators of what this post is suggesting.