Why isn't the high-end industry doing more to save itself?

[joelha]

Increasingly it seems, so much of our hobby operates in virtual obscurity.

 

Try telling someone you know (who is not already an avid audiophile, of course) just the names of the product you own and it's doubtful they'll have heard of most, if any.

 

I'm not talking about having purchased the product, just knowing the names.

 

I'm not going to go on and on about Itunes, mp3's, streaming audio from the internet, and Ipod docks. Other companies have a right to pursue what they believe the market wants.

 

What concerns me is that our hobby appears to be in strong decline . . . limited too much to the interests of people who remember Heathkits and Larger Advent speakers (my first pair of speakers).

 

My question is, why isn't our industry organizing more to bring its product more into the mainstream?

 

Why isn't there more of an effort to introduce younger generations to the benefits of great sound?

 

If I'm mis-reading what's going on out there, I would be happy to be corrected.

 

But what I'm seeing is an industry in decline which is seemingly unwilling or uncertain as to how it can re-organize and re-build itself.

 

Joel

[Audio_ELF]

I think you're right... Even companies who are embracing the future in their products don't seem to market them well...

 

An example (I've mentioned before elsewhere) is Naim and their Uniti line: they have produced a variety of integrated units, but instead of marketing them to the Bose and B&O market, only the audio enthusiasts know about them. Sometimes I dispair.

 

In a way they need to branch out. Like the Mini range from BMW; or possibly Land Rover / Range Rover division.

 

Eloise

[Paul R]

I suggest part of the reason may be our hobby is not mainstream. It's too technical and too expensive to be.

This hobby, like model rocketry, is pretty much bleeding edge.

 

The good stuff we find and adopt eventually finds its way into the mainstream, but at much reduced cost and effort. The general leel of mainstream sound is, and pretty much always has been, getting better and better.

 

And iPod sounds infinitely better than a $99 all in one 1980's Panasonic Receiver with a dubbing tape deck and record player.

 

-Paul

 

 

My question is, why isn't our industry organizing more to bring its product more into the mainstream?

[joelha]

Paul,

 

My concern is that our hobby is far less mainstream than it used to be.

 

How many high-end audio stores were there 30 years ago and how many are there today?

 

I wouldn't mind so much if it were only that the technology from our end of the hobby is filtering downward.

 

But it seems that those in the high-end segment of the industry are having a tougher and tougher time of turning a profit and staying in business.

 

That's just not good for those of us who do rely on this (higher) end of the audio divide.

 

Joel

[sdolezalek]

Getting everything just right in a conventional system (vinyl/CD/SACD front end, pre-amp, amp, speakers) is both really hard and, relative to other entertainment, really expensive. That seems to be the part of the industry that is dying a slow death.

 

But if you can put everything but an amplifier and speakers into the the computer hardware/software domain, we invite in lots of new players and allow them to participate at a much lower entry cost (think Audivana, Amarra, JRiver, etc.), DACs as sound cards, disc spinners, solid state storage, power supplies, etc. That reduces costs and increases choice, but it also has the possibility of leading to far better fully integrated and thus better sounding front ends where the software and hardware are fully optimized to work together, perhaps all the way through the cross-over stage (thus moving the amp and speaker even closer together).

 

Think of it as high-end actively amplified loudspeakers with an incredibly customizable and upgradeable computer front end. We are getting real close at the desktop level, not so much at the Living Room level and even less so in 5.1 systems.

 

But at the pace at which other technology systems are improving, do we really have any choice other than to adopt that kind of configuration? And if so, isn't this the place where you see those leading edge technologies?

[Audio_ELF]

Computers aren't the answer...

 

Well that's my opinion. I don't think computers in an audio rack is likely to attract the majority of people. They want something simple - hence the big market that Sonos have - only that only supports CD resolution and lower: they report that the bigger use is accessing Spotify / Mog type services.

 

Eloise

[Blake]

Is the high-end dying? Seems to be doing fine to me. The bricks n' mortar model is shrinking to be sure, but that does not mean that the high-end is dying, it is just the way products are sold.

[Audio_ELF]

The High End is doing fine, it's the mid-high end that has problems IMO.

 

A few hundred gets you an iPod type dock that sounds better than anything for similar cost in the 80s/90s.

 

A few thousand gets you better Naim or Macintosh or Ayre than ever before.

 

But the man in the street no longer is willing to spend £1000-2000 on a pair of mid sized speakers, amplifier and source.

 

Eloise

[sandyk]

And iPod sounds infinitely better than a $99 all in one 1980's Panasonic Receiver with a dubbing tape deck and record player.

But they still aren't in the same league as the stuff that Eloise is referring to.It's a shame that Naim products such as the Unitiserve and others aren't better promoted, and become more mainstream with savings due to economy of scale.

I also agree with this statement from Eloise

I don't think computers in an audio rack is likely to attract the majority of people.

Alex

[mav52]

Paul,

 

My concern is that our hobby is far less mainstream than it used to be.

 

How many high-end audio stores were there 30 years ago and how many are there today?

 

I wouldn't mind so much if it were only that the technology from our end of the hobby is filtering downward.

 

But it seems that those in the high-end segment of the industry are having a tougher and tougher time of turning a profit and staying in business.

 

That's just not good for those of us who do rely on this (higher) end of the audio divide.

 

Joel

 

I guess its economics and the huge crowd of people buying iPods, iPads, and iPhones type music devices. The public today is pretty much mobile with their ear buds. Just look at the young crowd walking around down town, most have a cell phone or something stuck in their ear. I call it nervous energy of the young and setting at home listening to music on something that cost more than a boom box or Laptop or Blue Ray player is not happening. Few "stores" remain today mostly put out of business by the Internet shopping craze and those 30 day return policies not to mention an increase in taxes and Federal Laws and regulations for a person trying to operate a small business. Audiophile equipment is a pretty dismal world with only a small percentage of the mass population willing to spend that kind of money to get "that sound" which most of these people couldn't hear anyway and most really don't care since their happy with what they got. The rich well they are a small percentage of the world population and most buy to just to "buy" the most expensive thing out there to support some symbolism of status.

[Kiwi2]

It's a shame that Naim products such as the Unitiserve and others aren't better promoted, and become more mainstream with savings due to economy of scale.

 

Cheaper and mainstream..!?!?

 

But then that brand will lose its product identity. Being expensive and exclusive is something that marketing aims for in some cases to fill a market niche. Some people want to own exclusive gear that Joe sixpack average that lives across the street has never heard of. This *IS* a large part of the "high-end" hi-fi market. A high pricetag helps to achieve that goal.

 

When a highly regarded brand in the high-end hi-fi world does become more widely known amongst the "masses" (a term quite often widely used by the snobs in hi-fi circles) ... those same people that once sung its praises as some kind of best kept secret amongst those in the know will then turn on it and denounce it as common mass produced rubbish.

 

A case in point. An amp manufacturer here in New Zealand, Perreaux, recently started supplying its amps to a large appliance retail chain here in NZ. The audiophile community here was up in arms about this! Joe sixpack average could now get one on 12 months interest-free credit while he was in the store getting a new washing machine! Someone might be over at your place and sees your Perreaux amp and say "did you get that from Harvey Norman?" The audiophiles were selling off their Perreaux amps on the news of this and flooding the second-hand market overnight. As if they suddenly started sounding terrible simply because they would be more widely known of amongst the "masses". Perreaux apparently was going to destroy its reputation with its overseas customer base if they also heard of this...!

 

A bizarre reaction indeed... but totally predictable considering what the high-end is about.

[wgb113]

It's going to be just fine.

 

And it's those kids with iPods that are going to make sure that is so. Today's entry into higher fidelity sound is headphones, headphone amps and DACs. There have never been more choices in any of those segments than there are today. It will give many enough of a taste to expand that into their living rooms as they buy houses in the form of more traditional amps and speakers.

 

That said, it will never be very mainstream. But that doesn't mean that it can't thrive.

 

Bill

[sandyk]

I said "cheaper and more mainstream." By that, I meant available in more "bricks and mortar" HiFi stores of which there are still a few left in most Australian capital cities, NOT "Hardly Normal" stores which were recently reported in a survey of having the worst customer service !

[Kiwi2]

I said "cheaper and more mainstream." By that, I meant available in more "bricks and mortar" HiFi stores of which there are still a few left in most Australian capital cities, NOT "Hardly Normal" stores...

 

Oh, I see. Not *THAT* mainstream.! ;0)

[Paul R]

I see what you are saying, and that is a good point.

 

On the other paw, 30 years ago (1982) there really wasn't much of an internet, and no commercial internet at all. Access to nifty cool devices was not available via a few keystrokes and a credit card. It is today, and that - in part - probably takes up some of the slack.

 

I could be wrong on that idea though. Not sure how to figure it out. There has never been a time when audio dealers didn't complain things were bad and getting worse.

 

-Paul

 

 

Paul,

 

My concern is that our hobby is far less mainstream than it used to be.

 

How many high-end audio stores were there 30 years ago and how many are there today?

 

I wouldn't mind so much if it were only that the technology from our end of the hobby is filtering downward.

 

But it seems that those in the high-end segment of the industry are having a tougher and tougher time of turning a profit and staying in business.

 

That's just not good for those of us who do rely on this (higher) end of the audio divide.

 

Joel

[spdif-usb]

Well... If it's mainstream then it can't be good. People who want something good won't buy Bose and Apple, simply because they're smart enough to understand the fact those brands revolve around marketeering and fashion rather than hi-perf and tech innovation.

[blueixus]

I agree that computer audio is a major plus for the hi end industry, but for me the real issue is home cinema. If people are going to spend money on 'home entertainment' that is where it is going to go...Manufacturers like Naim have run away from this, as it is complicated - I think that is a big mistake. These guys need to get their brands into peoples homes and let the upgrade bug do it's work.

 

I am sure most/all of us on this forum started with an entry price hifi system and then got hooked, in my view home cinema is the new mass entry point.

[Audio_ELF]

Well... If it's mainstream then it can't be good. People who want something good won't buy Bose and Apple, simply because they're smart enough to understand the fact those brands revolve around marketeering and fashion rather than hi-perf and tech innovation.

I think that is totally wrong. People want Bose and Apple because they believe the marketing and also want something that looks good and is easy to use. Now we can argue for days if they do really have any quality...

 

Back to the high end - there are subtle ways that (for example) Naim could market their products to the more mainstream while still keeping the high end cache. For example market the brand they have already created for a range of products. Selling "Uniti by Naim" in Harrods, Fortnum's John Lewis and other high end department stores along side selling to the high street bricks and mortar Hi-Fi shops.

 

As I commented above, it's like the Mini brand as part of BMW and in the opposite direction Lexus part of Toyota and Infiniti/Nissan.

 

Eloise

[Kiwi2]

People who want something good won't buy Bose and Apple, simply because they're smart enough to understand the fact those brands revolve around marketeering and fashion rather than hi-perf and tech innovation.

 

And the high-end doesn't as well..???

 

BD-30 Details | Lexicon

 

Oppo on the Inside, Lexicon on the Outside — Reviews and News from Audioholics

[spdif-usb]

And the high-end doesn't as well..???

 

BD-30 Details | Lexicon

 

Oppo on the Inside, Lexicon on the Outside — Reviews and News from Audioholics

I don't even consider those high end.

[tom-in-hk]

When I was growing up in the 80's we loved music, on the radio, or cassettes, or vinyl it didn't matter. The core was music and enjoyment of it. Of course as soon as the cd player was released, and it introduced it changed the aspirations of music lovers to get closer to the music. Unfortunately what I observe is the quality of music has declined into a heavily manufactured product, more so than crafted with real feeling. Furthermore the next step in higher resolution or sonic quality is just not there. Higher resolution formats such as SACD have failed, and it's somewhat impractical for some to commit serious money to high end rigs. Especially when the quality achievable at reasonable cost is acceptable to most.

Perhaps mainstream artists could release higher quality tracks, and actually worth buying. I would definitely buy a higher res version of Adele's albums..

[Audio_ELF]

I don't even consider those high end.

To be honest - that sort of attitude is part of the problem (IMO)

 

Eloise

[Jud]

When I was growing up in the 80's we loved music, on the radio, or cassettes, or vinyl it didn't matter. The core was music and enjoyment of it. Of course as soon as the cd player was released, and it introduced it changed the aspirations of music lovers to get closer to the music. Unfortunately what I observe is the quality of music has declined into a heavily manufactured product, more so than crafted with real feeling. Furthermore the next step in higher resolution or sonic quality is just not there. Higher resolution formats such as SACD have failed, and it's somewhat impractical for some to commit serious money to high end rigs. Especially when the quality achievable at reasonable cost is acceptable to most.

Perhaps mainstream artists could release higher quality tracks, and actually worth buying. I would definitely buy a higher res version of Adele's albums..

 

And those of us who grew up in the 50s and 60s can assure you the 70s and 80s were the start of that "heavily manufactured" sound. ;-)

 

I think the calculation regarding higher resolution music these days is extremely simple: The current cost of flash memory isn't low enough to justify offering even compressed versions of hi-res downloads to consumers to put on their iDevices. (My 32GB iPhone is right up against it at the moment with lots of music I really like left out. And I'm sure I've got nothing like the storage needs of the folks who must have the latest new downloads every Tuesday when they come out.) Once the cost of storage in portable players is low enough that virtually unlimited GB of downloaded hi-res material can be accommodated, I think you'll see hi-res downloads becoming common from the large commercial sellers.

[spdif-usb]

To be honest - that sort of attitude is part of the problem (IMO)

Those are Blu Ray players. They offer nothing to sound quality that can justify their price premium, and better video quality and features can always be obtained from an affordable HTPS.

[mayhem13]

I agree that computer audio is a major plus for the hi end industry, but for me the real issue is home cinema. If people are going to spend money on 'home entertainment' that is where it is going to go...Manufacturers like Naim have run away from this, as it is complicated - I think that is a big mistake. These guys need to get their brands into peoples homes and let the upgrade bug do it's work.

 

I am sure most/all of us on this forum started with an entry price hifi system and then got hooked, in my view home cinema is the new mass entry point.

 

I agree with the core of your opinion.

 

I also believe, and not just in relation to audio, the more exclusive or expensive an item....the higher the perception of the items performance. Once the item is available to everyone, exclusivity is gone, and......well....you know the rest. Even mass market AV mfgrs partake in this marketing strategy with such examples as Pioneere ELITE and SONY ES. SONY has just about abandoned it's ES line whole PIONEER has been very successfully with ELITE.