fas42 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 1 hour ago, plissken said: I would like to have you sit down and blind evaluate two tracks. One ripped from a CD and one that is a ADC capture of the same track and using Foobar ABX hit any statistical significance. Let me know when you want to make that happen. Bang! First problem: Foobar ABX is flawed, badly, as a mechanism for discriminating. Don't ask ... several years ago I spent some time disassembling how it worked, and it fails as a reasonable means of comparing files ... Teresa 1 Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 1 minute ago, esldude said: Not hearing differences disturbs others. Only when ASSES disturb them, accusing them of not hearing differences Teresa 1 Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
plissken Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 13 minutes ago, fas42 said: Bang! First problem: Foobar ABX is flawed, badly, as a mechanism for discriminating. Don't ask ... several years ago I spent some time disassembling how it worked, and it fails as a reasonable means of comparing files ... Do you have a write up? I've never heard anyone successfully pick apart Foobar's AB/X plug in. Very convenient for you. Michael Lavorgna even espouses it when it aligns with his interests. Link to comment
esldude Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 Just now, Audiophile Neuroscience said: Only when ASSES disturb them, accusing them of not hearing differences No, that is not the case. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 Just now, esldude said: No, that is not the case. yes it IS ! your turn. Teresa 1 Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
christopher3393 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, crenca said: Interesting (if I am following you). I have not read any modern stuff such as Heidegger but I can tell you in that milieu of Neo-Platonic and Christian thought of the first millennium it would have been odd to suppose of God as being. God was understood to utterly transcend being as such. Spot on. Like st. Denis (pseudo-Dionysius) Mystical Theology. There isn't a good online translation available, unfortunately. This is a good one: https://www.amazon.com/Pseudo-Dionysius-Complete-Classics-Spirituality-Paperback/dp/0809128381/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=69VM5ZCS8W3WW7FQ5P7P There is a contemporary philosopher and theologian, Jean-Luc Marion, who has explored this in great depth in relationship to contemporary philosophy. I'm thinking particularly of God Without Being. But it is a really arduous read. If you are interested, I'll try to find something readable. crenca 1 Link to comment
christopher3393 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 10 minutes ago, esldude said: Not hearing differences disturbs others. Yes, we are the Mutual Disturbance Society. Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 19 minutes ago, christopher3393 said: 32 minutes ago, crenca said: God was understood to utterly transcend being as such. Spot on. Like st. Denis (pseudo-Dionysius) Mystical Theology. There isn't a good online translation available, unfortunately. This is a good one: https://www.amazon.com/Pseudo-Dionysius-Complete-Classics-Spirituality-Paperback/dp/0809128381/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=69VM5ZCS8W3WW7FQ5P7P There is a contemporary philosopher and theologian, Jean-Luc Marion, who has explored this in great depth in relationship to contemporary philosophy. I'm thinking particularly of God Without Being. talking about concepts of the absolute mind, spirit or soul and all things ontological in relation to music and science, i find the allegory of Plato's cave not fundamentally different to Aristotlean realism - only in its explanation of how perceptions might be illusory. Plato describing them as shadows on the cave wall (and better explained by concepts of the absolute mind, spirit or soul) and realists believing object reality exists independent of the human mind (and better explained by scientific inquiry). The Aristotelian view and scientific method is still based on observations. In music perception those observations rely on the subjective senses. Of course mathematical observations and measurements of data are more "objective". The question always is are we measuring what we think we are. As Einstein used to say (quoting from William Cameron apparently) “Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.” The audio signal and sound wave and neural signal remain surrogates, indirect markers, of what is the end game - music perception in the brain. Until that point it simply isnt music. And it is more than just a passive registration of a signal on the cortex. Then there is view that reality is malleable, changing with fresh evidence of objects and things. How we know reality is from scientific inquiry when that inquiry all goes well. The pursuit of truth through inquiry and collection of evidence is therefore fallible. oops... methinks I forgot Daffy's advice christopher3393 1 Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
fas42 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 34 minutes ago, plissken said: Do you have a write up? I've never heard anyone successfully pick apart Foobar's AB/X plug in. Very convenient for you. Michael Lavorgna even espouses it when it aligns with his interests. The plug in copies the files, resampling them if not in the "right" form, to a tmp directory on the hard drive - and uses those. It doesn't just play the specified files, A and B - which is sorta the idea, I would have thought ... Watching what files are being created on the hard drive, while the ABX is working, tells one the story. MikeyFresh 1 Link to comment
fas42 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 With regards to "gods", once the word "intent" can be used in some sense then we start swimming, IMO ... Link to comment
kumakuma Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, fas42 said: The plug in copies the files, resampling them if not in the "right" form, to a tmp directory on the hard drive - and uses those. It doesn't just play the specified files A and B - which is sorta the idea, I would have thought ... Watching what files are being created on the hard drive, while the ABX is working, tells one the story. Were you using Release 1.X or Release 2.X? Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
fas42 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 Not sure, this was some years ago - is this a known change in behaviour? Link to comment
kumakuma Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, fas42 said: Not sure, this was some years ago - is this a known change in behaviour? 2.X was released in late 2014 and may have addressed some or all of the issues you had with 1.X: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,107354.0.html Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
dean70 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 Alchemy Desktop http://www.origen.net.au/Alchemy/ Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 1 hour ago, esldude said: That is right. No one should appeal to me as an authority. When you're right, you're right ! Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
fas42 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, kumakuma said: 2.X was released in late 2014 and may have addressed some or all of the issues you had with 1.X: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,107354.0.html Hmmm ... doesn't look like it - another big no no is that you can't stop the ABX code fidgeting while the test is running - it has to play the "keep you updated on what I'm doing!" routine instead of going to sleep as much as possible - a severe contrast to what PeterSt's player does, say. At the time, foobar replay quality was quite poor on the desktop I used - turned out that a very simple Nero player, with all fancy settings off, did the best job with that m/c. Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 2 hours ago, christopher3393 said: Maybe there is a really long acronym for ASSHOLES> Above my paygrade. Audiophile Skeptical Society Having Only Low Evidence Scientifically Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
plissken Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 1 hour ago, fas42 said: The plug in copies the files, resampling them if not in the "right" form, to a tmp directory on the hard drive - and uses those. It doesn't just play the specified files, A and B - which is sorta the idea, I would have thought ... Watching what files are being created on the hard drive, while the ABX is working, tells one the story. Not sure if my read is correct but I don't think it re-samples. I could just as easily rip a track then ADC that track and make 9 copies of the ADC'd and randomly label them and give you a 10 track folder evaluate. Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted October 28, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 28, 2017 If anyone is Anti-Audiophile, it is those who refuse to use scientific and engineering tools to improve music reproduction. mansr and esldude 2 Link to comment
Don Hills Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 1 hour ago, fas42 said: Hmmm ... doesn't look like it ... I recall some discussion about the changes in 2.x. You ought to take a look over on HA and see if your concerns have been addressed. If not, you ought to mention them there. "People hear what they see." - Doris Day The forum would be a much better place if everyone were less convinced of how right they were. Link to comment
fas42 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 39 minutes ago, plissken said: Not sure if my read is correct but I don't think it re-samples. I could just as easily rip a track then ADC that track and make 9 copies of the ADC'd and randomly label them and give you a 10 track folder evaluate. That's fine ... foobar ABX definitely resamples, I was amazed to see this behaviour, at the time - just pause the plug in, and run something like MediaInfo against the work files it creates and uses. Link to comment
fas42 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, Don Hills said: I recall some discussion about the changes in 2.x. You ought to take a look over on HA and see if your concerns have been addressed. If not, you ought to mention them there. OK, I will check into it further ... Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 32 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: If anyone is Anti-Audiophile, it is those who refuse to use scientific and engineering tools to improve music reproduction. Ultimately "music reproduction" is judged in the brain. There is no onus to use other "tools" to judge music reproduction - not using tools does not make you anti-audiophile. Many audiophiles are very interested in the tools for improving audio reproduction Teresa 1 Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 statistical analysis and blind testing are scientific tools - I am not talking about screwdrivers Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: statistical analysis and blind testing are scientific tools - I am not talking about screwdrivers Either am I. Doesn't change the fact that "Ultimately "music reproduction" is judged in the brain. There is no onus to use other "tools" to judge music reproduction - not using tools does not make you anti-audiophile. Many audiophiles are very interested in the tools for improving audio reproduction" Teresa 1 Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
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