Article: Upgrades To My Immersive Audio System, Plus One Deep Question

[bobfa]

I have been very happy with the balanced sub in my main system. It sits front and center with two drivers out the sides.  i have a smallish space I am trying to fill.

 

 

[cjf]

@The Computer Audiophile  Congrats on the upgrades. The fun part is now having to re-listen to your whole music library again once the new speakers are installed. Not so bad I guess..Heh

 

But...there is one comment I have that hopefully you wont take offense to.

 

I think that Wilson Submerge Sub is probably over priced by at least $20K USD. I hope you might still consider other options, even ones outside of the Wilson world for your Sub diet. Just saying, $30K can buy you an awful lot of other good Subs. I'll just leave it at that.

 

In any case, if only Wilson will do, I think adding a second Loke may provide a better outcome compared to having only 1 Submerge on its own. As you know, Sub placement is king in this game and having 2 Subs opens up far more options for you when dialing it all in.

[PeterG]

On 12/27/2023 at 8:23 PM, ShawnC said:

For what its' worth...

 

 

 

Great point.  One thing that is frustrating about subs is the next set of questions from the point made by Paul.  To continue on his example, he points to his sub as being located behind the listener, but every set of sub instructions I've ever seen has the sub in front.  Similarly, it's easy to read that a big room needs a big sub, but hard to find a formula so that a person could do the math at home.  This is in stark contrast to main speaker placement, when one can find a large number of step by step instructions.  If anyone has a real set of instructions, I will be eternally grateful

[ShawnC]

1 hour ago, PeterG said:

 

Great point.  One thing that is frustrating about subs is the next set of questions from the point made by Paul.  To continue on his example, he points to his sub as being located behind the listener, but every set of sub instructions I've ever seen has the sub in front.  Similarly, it's easy to read that a big room needs a big sub, but hard to find a formula so that a person could do the math at home.  This is in stark contrast to main speaker placement, when one can find a large number of step by step instructions.  If anyone has a real set of instructions, I will be eternally grateful

I use the crawl technique.  Put the subwoofer in your listening postion (on the chair or couch) and crawl along the floor until you find the spot that resonates/sounds the best to you.  That spot is where you place your sub.  If you get another sub do it again.  This isn't an end all for all sub placements but a good start.  From here run some good DSP and get it locked in.

[ShawnC]

Not to keep using Paul as some expert but here's another video on that subject.  There's plenty of Youtube videos on this subject. Take it with a grain of salt.

 

 

[botrytis]

1 hour ago, ShawnC said:

Not to keep using Paul as some expert but here's another video on that subject.  There's plenty of Youtube videos on this subject. Take it with a grain of salt.

 

 

Paul does good and bad videos. The bad ones are really out there, though.

 

Remember, it is all about sales, nothing more.

[PeterG]

38 minutes ago, botrytis said:

Paul does good and bad videos. The bad ones are really out there, though.

 

Remember, it is all about sales, nothing more.

 

I agree that sometimes he is working too hard to sell PS products.  But I like him--he is more expert than most, and he has a large number of engineers to support him.  Plus, it's kind of quaint that he pretends he is reading each question for the first time while on camera 😊

[MHWilliford]

Super-stoked for you Chris and hope this has become reality by now.  I think there is more concern with being wealthy and not redistributing that wealth.  You are helping to keep our economy rolling along - especially in the case of Wilson.  Can't wait to hear about your experiences with the upgraded set-up.  

[phusis]

On 1/1/2024 at 4:17 AM, cjf said:

@The Computer Audiophile  Congrats on the upgrades. The fun part is now having to re-listen to your whole music library again once the new speakers are installed. Not so bad I guess..Heh

 

But...there is one comment I have that hopefully you wont take offense to.

 

I think that Wilson Submerge Sub is probably over priced by at least $20K USD. I hope you might still consider other options, even ones outside of the Wilson world for your Sub diet. Just saying, $30K can buy you an awful lot of other good Subs. I'll just leave it at that.

 

In any case, if only Wilson will do, I think adding a second Loke may provide a better outcome compared to having only 1 Submerge on its own. As you know, Sub placement is king in this game and having 2 Subs opens up far more options for you when dialing it all in.

Definitely agree on the pricing of those Wilson subs (sorry to say, but those prices are insane), as well as adding a LoKe for a pair of them instead of going with a single Submerge - all depending on the intention of use here; is it about the Submerge digging deep re: in the aid of movie effects in particular, or other? I might add that for infrasonics to really matter one needs serious displacement, and from my chair a single 12" woofer isn't going to cut it here. 

 

@The Computer Audiophile Where are you low-passing the one LoKe you have (or two by now?), and are your Wilson Audio main speakers high-passed or run full-range? I'm assuming the latter. Placement of subs is vital, not only with regard to how they may interact with room modes for an acoustically smoother response, but also - depending on how high in frequency you're running them - where they're placed relative to the main speakers, and not least symmetrically or not. I use a pair of subs (tapped horns, 20cf. each) flanking my main speakers, each placed in their respective corners. Being they cross over to the mains at ~85Hz (where the mains are also high-passed) it's vital with symmetry-to-the-mains placement close to the mains, and being they're outboard actively configured (like the mains) I can use, and do use what's essentially the same amps top to bottom, which is important for overall coherency. As you no doubt know, tonality is very much affected by the lower octaves, and having similar amps in the subs range as used elsewhere is another way to have it all fall into place. It's a rabbit hole indeed.. :) 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, phusis said:

Definitely agree on the pricing of those Wilson subs (sorry to say, but those prices are insane), as well as adding a LoKe for a pair of them instead of going with a single Submerge - all depending on the intention of use here; is it about the Submerge digging deep re: in the aid of movie effects in particular, or other? I might add that for infrasonics to really matter one needs serious displacement, and from my chair a single 12" woofer isn't going to cut it here. 

 

@The Computer Audiophile Where are you low-passing the one LoKe you have (or two by now?), and are your Wilson Audio main speakers high-passed or run full-range? I'm assuming the latter. Placement of subs is vital, not only with regard to how they may interact with room modes for an acoustically smoother response, but also - depending on how high in frequency you're running them - where they're placed relative to the main speakers, and not least symmetrically or not. I use a pair of subs (tapped horns, 20cf. each) flanking my main speakers, each placed in their respective corners. Being they cross over to the mains at ~85Hz (where the mains are also high-passed) it's vital with symmetry-to-the-mains placement close to the mains, and being they're outboard actively configured (like the mains) I can use, and do use what's essentially the same amps top to bottom, which is important for overall coherency. As you no doubt know, tonality is very much affected by the lower octaves, and having similar amps in the subs range as used elsewhere is another way to have it all fall into place. It's a rabbit hole indeed.. :) 

Hi @phusis, a rabbit hole indeed, but it’s a fun one. 
 

Using Audiolense and filters created by @mitchco I have the ultimate in flexibility. I can offload bass from each of the 12 channels at whichever frequency I need, individually. I need to write an article about the system now that I’ve upgraded the 8 surrounds and center channel. The front L and R and Center are now running full range because they are full range speakers. 
 

There is no screen allowed in my room, so music only :~)

 

I still haven’t decided which route to go with subs. 
 

Here’s an article with some info about the filters and frequency response.