USB cables size matters

[bogi]

12 minutes ago, Kimo said:

Would you say that the Supra sounds a little whiter/brighter than the Belkin Gold?

Yes, Supra sounded me a bit brighter and low level details like percussion are a bit cleaner with Belkin. But as I mentioned above, my Supra is 0.75m and Belkin is 1.5m long. My opinion is not related to Supra 1.5m which I don't own.

[Kimo]

5 minutes ago, bogi said:

Yes, a bit brighter and low level details like percussion are a bit cleaner with Belkin. But as I mentioned above, my Supra is 0.75m and Belkin is 1.5m long. My opinion is not related to Supra 1.5m which I don't own.

 

If you have a plain old 1m USB cable around I would be interested in knowing if it tonally sounds closer to the Supra or the Belkin.  I just can't get myself to spend another 150.00 for a 2m of the Excalibur to compare directly to the 1m that I have now.

[bogi]

2 minutes ago, Kimo said:

If you have a plain old 1m USB cable around I would be interested in knowing if it tonally sounds closer to the Supra or the Belkin. 

I have such a cable around but who knows what's the level of impedance match (90 Ohm) of connectors - it influences level and polarity of reflections. Then, Supra has separately isolated data and power lines so it should be less influenced by computer noise. So I couldn't attribute sonic difference only to cable length. Therefore I don't wish to influence you so much by an opinion based on an unknown noname cable.

[Kimo]

6 minutes ago, bogi said:

I have such a cable around but who knows what's the level of impedance match (90 Ohm) of connectors - it influences level and polarity of reflections. Then, Supra has separately isolated data and power lines so it should be less influenced by computer noise. So I couldn't attribute sonic difference only to cable length. Therefore I don't wish to influence you so much by an opinion based on an unknown noname cable.

 

I have identified one of the no names as a Philips from Staples.  I will pick up a 1m and compare with the longer Philips and shorter sundry cables.  Won't be the same as comparing 2 certified cables, but I can't seem to find a 1m of Belkin Gold either.

[sphinxsix]

4 hours ago, Kimo said:

 

In audiophile terms you got some big guns here!

 

https://www.nordost.com/faqs.php

 

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53f2ba7ce4b0e9d91b048708/t/60a5a4b8ba05500910893c5c/1621468344871/Alpha+USB+User+Guide+v1.3.pdf

 

https://www.mapleshadestore.com/freeupgrades.php

 

https://bobpariseau.com/blog/2018/4/23/hdmi-premium-certified-cables-these-are-what-you-want

 

 

Big guns indeed!

Some quotes..

 

Berkeley Audio Design®:

 

"Lead Dress.

It is good practice to keep various types of signal and power cables physically separated from each other. This is especially important for the USB cable to the computer. It should be routed away from the chassis of the Alpha USB and any other component or cable that is part of the audio system. 1.5 meters is an optimum default length for USB, SPDIF and AES digital cables."

 

Are you sure it's only about the cables lengths, not about the distance between components?

 

Nordost (used to sell their cables, I think they are often quite specific - clearly on the bright and thin side of sound). Let's not forget this is a cable company, can't copy'n'paste so posting PDF screen, I'm sure many here will love this:

 

 

screencapture-nordost-faqs-php-2023-04-22-18_11_57.pdfscreencapture-nordost-faqs-php-2023-04-22-18_11_57.pdfscreencapture-nordost-faqs-php-2023-04-22-18_11_57.pdf

 

Another set of interesting suggestions from  :

 

"Never Bundle Wires

Never bundle any of your system’s wires: bundling looks neat and sounds nasty

 

(Nordost recommends no tight bundling a serpentine pattern is even better!)

Get Cables Off The Carpet

Lift all speaker, power, and interconnect wires 8" off any carpet or plastic tile. Use string, wood, cardboard, or 20 ounce Styrofoam cups for temporary props. You’ll think you’ve pulled horse blankets off your speakers. For a more civilized-looking solution, click here.

 

Split Generic Two-Conductor Wires

For generic speaker wire, AC cords, and wall wart umbilicals, always split their two-conductor wires and separate by at least 6" for a satisfying upgrade. Don't forget to keep all your system wire—IC, speaker and power--off artificial fiber rugs and de-static them regularly.

Don't Use Short Speaker Cables

NEVER use speaker cables shorter than 8'. Amazingly, 4' sounds much worse than 8'. Contrary to common belief, shorter interconnects (2 m or less) and longer speaker cables always sound WAY BETTER than the opposite—based on extensive head-to-head tests.

When To Bi-Wire

Bi-wiring helps quite a bit, but only for cables with quite limited bass and treble. The better the cable, the less the benefit. By the time you get to the performance level of our Double Helix speaker cables, the benefit in bi-wiring is negligible with most crossovers.

Upgrade Cheap Interconnects

To audibly improve any cheap interconnect, use a razor to carefully peel the thin plastic insulation off the braided metal you'll find underneath. Split 2-channel interconnects and separate the two by several inches. Cut heat shrink and plastic strain reliefs off the back of RCA plugs and remove their metal barrels (if possible). Among generic wires, choose the skinniest for best sound.

 

Upgrade Conventional Hi End Cables

To improve high end cables, remove any outer nylon mesh: the bad dielectric only adds grunge. Remove any metal barrels on RCA plugs—you lose the locking feature and gain transparency.

Remove Ferrites

Any cable with a molded-in ferrite (the small plastic-covered cylinder at one or both ends) sounds way better with the ferrite removed. Just carve away the plastic covering, then crack the exposed ceramic-like ferrite with a hammer. Don’t worry; you won’t harm the wire."

 

BOB PARISEAU (who's that..? Ok, now I know: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bob-pariseau/):

 

"But what most folks DON'T realize is that *SHORT* HDMI cables can also cause problems!

The electronics in the transmitter and receiver chips at either end of the cable attempt to make that simple twisted-pair cabling work even for high bandwidth signals by correcting for the expected degradation of the signal as it traverses the length of the cable.  This "Equalization" only works by making some assumptions about how much (and what type) of signal degradation will be present.  And first and foremost, that means making an assumption about the length of the cable between the two devices.

And the design point for Equalization is a 6 foot (2 meter) cable!

That means that cables both longer and shorter than 6 foot length will differ from the assumptions built into the electronics.  This is EVEN MORE of a problem if the device at either end of the cable is an older HDMI device using older chips that use less sophisticated Equalization methods.

Now just as some people have managed to use longish HDMI cables with no problems, other folks will have successfully used short cables with no problems.  Tolerances in the design and manufacture see to that.

But to keep the odds ever in your favor, the ideal cable length for HDMI between any two devices would be 6 feet."

 

 

GOOGLE:

 

1. What distance does HDMI cable support? HDMI Category 1 - also referred to as Standard HDMI cables will easily reach up to 5 metres without any problems and in ideal conditions will transmit over distances of up to 20 metres. 2. Most manufacturers recommend not going over 20 feet without some powered solution (more on that below). So, while there isn't a maximum length per se, you should think of 20 feet as the max optimal length. 3, 4, etc can be checked by those who want to of course..

 

 

Sorry for some graphic mess, guys, I'm in a hurry, feel free to discuss!

 

 

[Speedskater]

5 hours ago, audiobomber said:

The idea of an optimum length for a digital cable has merit, but only in limited applications. Back when outboard CD transports became popular, most had RCA type connectors, which did not meet the required 75 ohm impedance spec

Nonsense!

At the low for digital frequencies of SPDIF the connectors had nothing to do with it.

The problems were poorly designed digital input and output stages.

[bogi]

55 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

At the low for digital frequencies of SPDIF the connectors had nothing to do with it.

Impedance of coax cable connectors should match cable impedance to avoid reflections as much as possible. See my post on previous page about cable lengths vs reflections.

 

From wikipedia: " If a coaxial cable is open (not connected at the end), the termination has nearly infinite resistance, which causes reflections. If the coaxial cable is short-circuited, the termination resistance is nearly zero, which causes reflections with the opposite polarity. Reflections will be nearly eliminated if the coaxial cable is terminated in a pure resistance equal to its impedance."

From John Siau: "The reflected signal can be either polarity. If the termination impedance is higher than the cable impedance, the reflection will be non-inverted. If the termination impedance is lower than the cable impedance, the reflection will be inverted."

[bogi]

6 hours ago, audiobomber said:

With USB and ethernet cables, shorter is better.

 

I've compared an Oyaide neo+ Class A USB 2.0 and a certified Belkin USB 3.0 cable to a basic USB-A to USB-B 3.0 adapter. In both cases, the no-cable adapter wins.

Your assumption about USB cable length is incorrect. The same physical rules as for coax cables apply just data rate for USB transfer is lower (8kHz). The adapter wins because it is impedance matched and too short to create reflections. No cable is always better than a cable, but shorter cable can behave worse than longer one. See the calculations I mentioned on previous page. Find the John Siau post on ASR.

[audiobomber]

30 minutes ago, bogi said:

Your assumption about USB cable length is incorrect. The same physical rules as for coax cables apply just data rate for USB transfer is lower (8kHz). The adapter wins because it is impedance matched and too short to create reflections. No cable is always better than a cable, but shorter cable can behave worse than longer one. See the calculations I mentioned on previous page. Find the John Siau post on ASR.

John Siau told me USB cables don't matter with his DAC3. I started with the supplied USB cable and found it compromised the sound vs. the Oyaide. 

[dericchan1]

I have used, regular amazon basic usb cables, Monolith usb cables, ghent audio starquad usb cables, supra regular usb cables and supra excalibur usb cables in varying length between 3' to 6' fed to my IFI PRO iDSD dac that is supposed to have built-in isolation. They all sound slightly different until you put in an intona in between, then everything sound the same regardless of whatever cables you use.

[bogi]

3 minutes ago, dericchan1 said:

They all sound slightly different until you put in an intona in between, then they all sound the same regardless of whatever cables you use.

I have similar personal observation with HS02 on my chain. Impact of cable behind HS02 and iSilencer is much lowered. For my ears it is in small extent still existing. For me it was worth to exchange the cable (which I already had at home) but I would be happy listener with the Supra one too. Something like cosmetic change, which could be unimportant or non existing for other people.

 

Our subjective experiences need not to match fully. If there is similarity, that's also helpful to understand the topic.

[dericchan1]

23 minutes ago, bogi said:

I have similar personal observation with HS02 on my chain. Impact of cable behind HS02 and iSilencer is much lowered. For my ears it is in small extent still existing. For me it was worth to exchange the cable (which I already had at home) but I would be happy listener with the Supra one too. Something like cosmetic change, which could be unimportant or non existing for other people.

 

Our subjective experiences need not to match fully. If there is similarity, that's also helpful to understand the topic.

Well I am still using 1 Supra Excalibur before the intona and 1 Supra Excalibur after the intona since the Excalibur looks nicer in the system but no difference in sound compared to my $10 amazon basics cables

[bogi]

33 minutes ago, dericchan1 said:

Well I am still using 1 Supra Excalibur before the intona and 1 Supra Excalibur after the intona since the Excalibur looks nicer in the system but no difference in sound compared to my $10 amazon basics cables

 

I think computer noise impact is usually much higher than impact of possible reflections.

Reflection suppression is addressed by stable cable impedance along its length and correct cable termination. Length at least 1.5m is also helpful to reject reflections. It is known that for example Belkin cables (probably Amazon Basics too) are correctly terminated. I think more expensive cables additionally address noise rejection (with separate power and data shielding) and attempt to provide less distortion (with technologies/materials used).

Without things like Intona lower price cables are easier affected by computer generated noise. That IMO explains bigger perceived differences between cables when no other treatment is used.

[dericchan1]

4 minutes ago, bogi said:

 

I think computer noise impact is usually much higher than impact of possible reflections.

Reflection suppression is addressed by stable cable impedance along its length and correct cable termination. Length at least 1.5m is also helpful to reject reflections. It is known that for example Belkin cables (probably Amazon Basics too) are correctly terminated. I think more expensive cables additionally address noise rejection (with separate power and data shielding) and attempt to provide less distortion (with technologies/materials used).

Without things like Intona lower price cables are easier affected by computer generated noise. That IMO explains bigger perceived differences between cables when no other treatment is used.

Ok, don't quote me on that but I thought the 1.5m length and issue with reflections are only known issues with Coax cables with a standard 75Ohm impedance. USB cables have standard 90Ohm impedance and I have always read from ASR and other sources that shorter is better. I have never read anything about reflections issue with USB

[Currawong]

16 hours ago, Kimo said:

So, now I am left with a shorter cable sounds worse, because it is letting through more noise, and a shorter cable sounds better, because USB cables perform worse as length increases.  Oh, and there may be a need for a USB exorcism at some point, as well.

 

Actually, this all kind of makes sense.

 

 

Seriously though, it depends on shielding. But, I'm still more for removing the noise in the first place, eliminating the issue with different cables.

14 hours ago, audiobomber said:

I've compared an Oyaide neo+ Class A USB 2.0 and a certified Belkin USB 3.0 cable to a basic USB-A to USB-B 3.0 adapter. In both cases, the no-cable adapter wins.

I remember when I first got a good USB to S/PDIF converter, a bus-powered Singxer F1, comparing using a USB adaptor and S/PDIF cable, to using a USB cable and RCA gender changing adaptor. Each set-up sounded slightly different. 

[bogi]

Digital signals are radio frequency signals and that determines the underlying physics. Signal reflections occur in every digital cable if cable impedance is not perfectly followed along the cable and if it is not correctly terminated. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_reflection or for example https://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/cable_impedance.html

The basics of underlying physics are described also in this USB3 related material but that physics  is not USB 3 specific:

 

 

I did not tell that possible reflections have more influence than noise generated by computer. I told that possible impedance mismatches, which occur in real world, are better rejected with longer USB cables. I am not speculating about reflection audibility, because it depends on many factors, both technical and subjective ones.

 

Since more of you questioned if reflections can at all occur also in USB cables, I am providing more information with USB specific links.

 

Search for 'reflections' in:

About USB high speed in general - not devoted to audio: At 480 Mbits/s, Signal Integrity Becomes An Issue In USB 2.0 Designs

Answers from more audio cable manufacturers: https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/
What Intona says about cable they are producing: https://intona.eu/en/products/4053#signal_integrity

What Nordost Audio says: https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/digital-audio-cables-how-can-they-make-a-difference-by-nordost-audio/

[semente]

On 4/22/2023 at 5:34 PM, sphinxsix said:

Don't Use Short Speaker Cables

NEVER use speaker cables shorter than 8'. Amazingly, 4' sounds much worse than 8'. Contrary to common belief, shorter interconnects (2 m or less) and longer speaker cables always sound WAY BETTER than the opposite—based on extensive head-to-head tests.

🤣

[Speedskater]

On 4/22/2023 at 3:25 PM, bogi said:

Impedance of coax cable connectors should match cable impedance to avoid reflections as much as possible.

At frequencies above a few hundred megahertz, yes.

At SPDIF frequencies, no.

[sphinxsix]

On 4/22/2023 at 6:34 PM, sphinxsix said:

Don't Use Short Speaker Cables

NEVER use speaker cables shorter than 8'. Amazingly, 4' sounds much worse than 8'. Contrary to common belief, shorter interconnects (2 m or less) and longer speaker cables always sound WAY BETTER than the opposite—based on extensive head-to-head tests.

 

On 4/24/2023 at 5:41 PM, semente said:

🤣

 

And In Particular Never Use Short Nordost Speaker Cables.

                    Nordost produces the only cables on the market as for which the rule is: the                            longer - the better. We are the only company that has managed to create                                speaker cables that improve the sound with each additional kilometer.

                    Based on extensive head-to-head tests..

 

 

[bogi]

1 hour ago, Speedskater said:

At frequencies above a few hundred megahertz, yes.

At SPDIF frequencies, no.

Minimum cable length is not about PCM sample rate like 44.1k or 192k. It is about signal rise time. That defines minimum cable length without possible reflection impact. Signal rise times are similar for different kinds of digital data transfer and are not directly related to SPDIF signal sample rate of USB packet transfer rate.

 

Here is very good explanation from Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio: http://www.audiopolitan.com/blog/spdif-does-coaxial-digital-cable-length-matter/

 

These are two most relevant parts of the article but I recommend you to read it all:

Quote

 

When an edge transitions, it can be described as having a rise-time or fall-time. This is the time it takes for the signal to transition from 10% to 90% of the entire voltage swing. The rise-time is important because this is what causes reflections on the transmission-line. If the rise-time were very, very slow, say 50 nanoseconds, then there would be no reflections on the transmission-line unless it was extremely long. Alternately, if the rise-time were less than 1 nanosecond, reflections would occur at every boundary, such as the connection from the circuit board to the wires that go to the connector.

Typical stock Transports have around 25 nanosecond rise-times. The primary concern for the manufacturer is to pass FCC regulations for emissions and electromagnetic interference, as well as making the interface reliable. When the regulatory testing is done, they attach very inexpensive, inferior cables and measure the emissions. To insure that the manufacturer passes these tests, they take a number of precautions. One is designing-in the slower than necessary 25 nanosecond rise-time. Another is the insertion of various filters in the Transport to eliminate high frequencies from the signal. As a result of these choices, there is a hazard created in using too short a digital cable. It is a result of the slow rise-time.

The slow rise-time has an advantage as well. Discontinuities in characteristic impedance, such as circuit board traces, funky wiring and RCA connectors will have less effect on the signal integrity or voltage “shape.” Because the transitions are slow, reflections are not as high in amplitude and therefore have less effect on the jitter. However, the penalty is paid at the receiver chip where the slow edge causes uncertainty of when the transition actually took place. Jitter is created by the receiver chip when it inaccurately senses the slow transition.

...

If the rise-time is 25 nanoseconds and the cable length is 3 feet, then the propagation time is about 6 nanoseconds. Once the transition has arrived at the receiver, the reflection propagates back to the driver (6 nanoseconds) and then the driver reflects this back to the receiver (6 nanoseconds) = 12 nanoseconds. So, as seen at the receiver, 12 nanoseconds after the 25 nanosecond transition started, we have a reflection superimposing on the transition. This is right about the time that the receiver will try to sample the transition, right around 0 volts DC. Not good. Now if the cable had been 1.5 meters, the reflection would have arrived 18 nanoseconds after the 25 nanosecond transition started at the receiver. This is much better because the receiver has likely already sampled the transition by this time.

 

 

SPDIF frequencies 44.1k to 192k are about how often a data transfer event repeats. They are related to maximum cable length. It is defined as max. length at which the 1st reflection returns to sender side yet before next data transfer event (at 8k for USB, 44.1k to 192k for SPDIF...). See my longer post on the previous page or read the John Siau post I referred to. Or find some other sources where the same thing is explained.

 

I would like to continue in a consistent debate. I am repeatedly pointing to facts I already provided on the previous page and which are backed up by simple math of basic school.

[Allan F]

35 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

Nordost produces the only cables on the market as for which the rule is: the                            longer - the better. We are the only company that has managed to create                                speaker cables that improve the sound with each additional kilometer.

 

I am quite sure that there are very few people whose listening rooms measure in the kilometers. 🙂

[sphinxsix]

1 minute ago, Allan F said:

 

I am quite sure that there are very few people whose listening rooms measure in the kilometers. 🙂

 

If one wants a really wide soundstage he puts his gear outdoors and..

BTW soundstage depth created by Nordost cables also improves with each km..

 

[sphinxsix]

@Allan F But I know this is not for everyone so if you're extremely boringly traditional audiophile and you insist on listening to the music indoors - just bundle them. Bundle them, goddamn cables along the walls of your listening room, bundle them around your house, ask the neighbors to bundle them around their houses too (and obviously propose to bundle their cables around your house in return!).

[Currawong]

Passion for Sound just did a measured USB cable shootout through his TT2. The differences between the output with different cables was astounding.

 

 

[Archimago]

7 hours ago, Currawong said:

Passion for Sound just did a measured USB cable shootout through his TT2. The differences between the output with different cables was astounding.

 

 

 

Interesting. Note that with ADC and DACs there is temporal drift which needs to be accounted for. I don't think he accounted for this and that's likely the leakage he's seeing from the simple inversion he's doing.

 

He should really put the samples through DeltaWave to actually see the correlation null when corrected.

 

 

Don't think there's anything mind blowing here...