Article: An Audiophile And A Subwoofer | The Wilson Audio Lōkē

[The Computer Audiophile]

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[fas42]

A week or so ago when visiting a member of the family I was again reminded of why subwoofers are normally useless. Okay, very low cost setup, and hadn't been given any attention to - but, was extremely annoying to listen to. Set to very low, background volume, but, you either heard some faint music, or, you heard the subwoofer rumbling - two completely distinct activities, with seemingly no connection between them ... it almost got to the point where it was like waiting for the dentist drill to contact, when is that damn thing going to start throbbing again ...

[PeterG]

Welcome to the dark side, Chris!  I hope in the future you're able to compare the Loke to others.  One of the things that's tough about subwoofer reviews is that virtually all of them pit the subwoofer against no subwoofer, as you've done.  But for those who are most interested in subwoofers, the conclusion of sub vs none is known in advance.  It would be awesome to know how Loke delivers vs JL, REL, et al

[skatbelt]

DRC, subwoofer integration, good to see your insights evolving!

 

Placement, crossover frequencies and filters, multiple subwoofers are variables with which you can experiment endlessly. It is also essential that you get the timing/phase between the mains and the sub(s) exactly right at the listening position.

 

After a lot of measuring but also listening, the optimum in my setup is a crossover point of 64 Hz and a (quite steep) 4th order Linkwitz-Riley filter.

[twist222]

With only one 10 inch driver in the Loke I expect it won’t be too long before you end up with more than one subwoofer in your system. 
I’m sure Mitch will be able to do a great job of integration of the subwoofer with a new 2 way AL filter. 
Mark

[robocop]

Over priced, ported, under sized driver and low powered. Doing yourself a massive disservice with this sub. You actually need two minimum and at least 12 inch drivers with 1000 watts or more and sealed. You could squeeze two JL Audio 12's in for this retail price. Anyway it is what it is, you didn't pay retail so it doesn't matter. Sub woofers are essential and always have been they improve the midrange and high frequencies. Sealed subs have always been cleaner sounding to my ears. Ported are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear!!!

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 hours ago, robocop said:

Over priced, ported, under sized driver and low powered. Doing yourself a massive disservice with this sub. You actually need two minimum and at least 12 inch drivers with 1000 watts or more and sealed. You could squeeze two JL Audio 12's in for this retail price. Anyway it is what it is, you didn't pay retail so it doesn't matter. Sub woofers are essential and always have been they improve the midrange and high frequencies. Sealed subs have always been cleaner sounding to my ears. Ported are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear!!!

Did you see the measurements in my room?

[fas42]

12 hours ago, robocop said:

Over priced, ported, under sized driver and low powered. Doing yourself a massive disservice with this sub. You actually need two minimum and at least 12 inch drivers with 1000 watts or more and sealed. You could squeeze two JL Audio 12's in for this retail price. Anyway it is what it is, you didn't pay retail so it doesn't matter. Sub woofers are essential and always have been they improve the midrange and high frequencies. Sealed subs have always been cleaner sounding to my ears. Ported are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear!!!

 

Visited a setup that had all of that, only lacking the 1000 watts driving power. But used a DEQX to 'perfect' the FR - and the bass frequencies were extremely clean, as demonstrated when a frequency sweep went down to the depths and back out again. Did it create, audio nirvana? Nope ... miles from it - if what's happening elsewhere in the spectrum has issues then you still don't get good listening ...

[AudioDoctor]

I have loved the Zu Audio Undertone since I received it years ago. It has lived on in every speaker based system since then.

[PeterG]

On 12/10/2022 at 4:33 AM, robocop said:

Over priced, ported, under sized driver and low powered. Doing yourself a massive disservice with this sub. You actually need two minimum and at least 12 inch drivers with 1000 watts or more and sealed. You could squeeze two JL Audio 12's in for this retail price. 

I'm not a technical person, but aren't both of these points really a function of room size?  In general--isn't our optimum size for a sub one (or two) that will pressurize the room without the giant waves bouncing off the walls too much?  On comparisons to other subs--Wilsons are always high priced when we are just comparing hardware, but they are still a great value in terms of sonics.  So if one's room is below some certain size--isn't it the case that certain other attributes would enable it to sound better than the pair of JLs?

 

Just to be clear--not pushing back just for fun here--I am in the market to upgrade sub from B&W DB3D and am considering, Loke, JL Fathom, and B&W DB1D.  I am not price-sensitive, but probably need to stick to one sub (for my wife).  To be paired with Wilson Tune Tots and McIntosh MC275, room is 17' x 30'.  Sound is currently excellent at low to medium volume, becomes muddy at high volume.  (Floor standers not an option)  Thanks

[jrobbins50]

@The Computer Audiophile, you of course know that I use two GoldenEar SuperSub XXLs in my system, and you’ve heard them as optimized via Audiolense XO by Mitch. And I’ve heard the (terrific sounding) Lōkē on your (terrific sounding) system, as optimized as well by Mitch. You know my opinion that, particularly for rock, a second Lōkē in your system would, well, rock even more.  JCR  

[Clement]

Thanks for the review. I’m very interested in a pair of Loke, together with my Brinkmann pre and mono power amp, a pair of Sasha DAW AND a AV amp. 
The AV amp is bypassing the front channels to L and R of pre amp. 
My question is, after connecting the L and R Loke to the respective output from the preamp, can I still connect the LFE from the AV amp to the remaining input of the subwoofer (as there are 2, L and R, balanced or unbalanced inputs)?

 

Many thanks. 
Clement 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

12 hours ago, Clement said:

Thanks for the review. I’m very interested in a pair of Loke, together with my Brinkmann pre and mono power amp, a pair of Sasha DAW AND a AV amp. 
The AV amp is bypassing the front channels to L and R of pre amp. 
My question is, after connecting the L and R Loke to the respective output from the preamp, can I still connect the LFE from the AV amp to the remaining input of the subwoofer (as there are 2, L and R, balanced or unbalanced inputs)?

 

Many thanks. 
Clement 

 

Hi Clement, both inputs are active, so unless your equipment actively determines the output, you will likely have a poor experience because LōKē would be getting a signal in both inputs.  Ideally, LōKē is either or, not both.

[Clement]

Thanks

[Mark Dirac]

How do you pronounce "Lōkē"?

[The Computer Audiophile]

46 minutes ago, Mark Dirac said:

How do you pronounce "Lōkē"?

Like low key. 

[Jud]

11 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Like low key. 

 

OK, I couldn't find the part where Clouseau says "I am Mr. Lo Kee," but this is classic anyway: 

 

 

[mesonto]

On 12/10/2022 at 9:08 AM, The Computer Audiophile said:

Did you see the measurements in my room?

Just becasue you received those measurements doesn't mean that the other comment was incorrect. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

11 minutes ago, mesonto said:

Just becasue you received those measurements doesn't mean that the other comment was incorrect. 

 

OK, let's go over the comment.

 

 

Quote

Over priced, ported, under sized driver and low powered. Doing yourself a massive disservice with this sub. You actually need two minimum and at least 12 inch drivers with 1000 watts or more and sealed.

 

There is no basis for these sentences. Why would I need that, if I'm getting bass down to 14Hz that's accurate? I'm open to all factual information.

 

 

Quote

You could squeeze two JL Audio 12's in for this retail price.

 

I'm uninsterested in squeezing more of anything just because more is seemingly better. Without the "why" I don't understand. I also don't believe I have the phase issues inherent in such a dual JL solution.

 

 

Quote

Anyway it is what it is, you didn't pay retail so it doesn't matter. Sub woofers are essential and always have been they improve the midrange and high frequencies.

 

What is meant by "they improve the midrange and high frequencies?" I don't understand this.

 

 

Quote

Sealed subs have always been cleaner sounding to my ears.

 

No problems at all. We all like what we like and only a fool would argue against one's subjective taste. 

 

 

Quote

Ported are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear!!!

 

How so? What would a sealed enclosure get me in my system that I don't already have? Not looking for theory, but actual real details.

 

 

[mesonto]

No problem, but you sound a bit intractable already:

 

"Over priced, ported, under sized driver and low powered." - absolutely for what it is,

"Doing yourself a massive disservice with this sub. You actually need two minimum and at least 12 inch drivers with 1000 watts or more and sealed." - 2 12 inch drivers would get you there as well, but sealed would get you there with no port huffing, no matter how it was designed.

"You could squeeze two JL Audio 12's in for this retail price." - absolutely true, and with dual woofers you will get more even coverage... just look this one up yourself. Even 4 will be better with less effort, but now we are trying to find room for them.

"Anyway it is what it is, you didn't pay retail so it doesn't matter. Sub woofers are essential and always have been they improve the midrange and high frequencies." - very true, allows your L&R to relax, your subs are now in their best supporting role.

"Sealed subs have always been cleaner sounding to my ears." Sealed subs are usually better for everyone's ears.

"Ported are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear!!!" - I get it but not worth defending.

 

Hey if you cannot hear the difference or most likely haven't experimentated enough I get it. You love your Loke, great for you. Cheers!

[Jud]

How enlightening. 🤭

[The Computer Audiophile]

18 minutes ago, mesonto said:

No problem, but you sound a bit intractable already:

 

"Over priced, ported, under sized driver and low powered." - absolutely for what it is,

"Doing yourself a massive disservice with this sub. You actually need two minimum and at least 12 inch drivers with 1000 watts or more and sealed." - 2 12 inch drivers would get you there as well, but sealed would get you there with no port huffing, no matter how it was designed.

"You could squeeze two JL Audio 12's in for this retail price." - absolutely true, and with dual woofers you will get more even coverage... just look this one up yourself. Even 4 will be better with less effort, but now we are trying to find room for them.

"Anyway it is what it is, you didn't pay retail so it doesn't matter. Sub woofers are essential and always have been they improve the midrange and high frequencies." - very true, allows your L&R to relax, your subs are now in their best supporting role.

"Sealed subs have always been cleaner sounding to my ears." Sealed subs are usually better for everyone's ears.

"Ported are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear!!!" - I get it but not worth defending.

 

Hey if you cannot hear the difference or most likely haven't experimentated enough I get it. You love your Loke, great for you. Cheers!

 

I hoped for actual information helping me and others understand why the initial comments were supposedly true. I don't see anything in your comments, other than it's true because I say it is.

 

At the listening position, I'm getting 14Hz bass that measures great. What is meant by "more even coverage?" Does this mean in other locations in the room, where I don't listen?

 

What is the benefit of "Even 4 will be better with less effort?" My single sub isn't overworked, and this is evidenced by both objective and subjective results. 

 

 

I have no clue what is meant by, "very true, allows your L&R to relax, your subs are now in their best supporting role." My left and right are objectively and subjectively reproducing audio as designed. What do you mean by relax? What would improve if the speakers were relaxed? The subwoofer reproduces the frequencies it's supposed to reproduce, just lke the left and right speakers. 

 

 

 

[mesonto]

7 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

I hoped for actual information helping me and others understand why the initial comments were supposedly true. I don't see anything in your comments, other than it's true because I say it is.

 

At the listening position, I'm getting 14Hz bass that measures great. What is meant by "more even coverage?" Does this mean in other locations in the room, where I don't listen?

 

What is the benefit of "Even 4 will be better with less effort?" My single sub isn't overworked, and this is evidenced by both objective and subjective results. 

 

 

I have no clue what is meant by, "very true, allows your L&R to relax, your subs are now in their best supporting role." My left and right are objectively and subjectively reproducing audio as designed. What do you mean by relax? What would improve if the speakers were relaxed? The subwoofer reproduces the frequencies it's supposed to reproduce, just lke the left and right speakers.

 

Again, I cannot fault you for not hearing other configurations, it is what it is. So if you are happy with it, and you have the money and you wish to stick to this brand, utterly fantastic!

 

But what the initial commenatator said is still valid. I believe what they were refering to "Over priced, ported, under sized driver..." was that the Loke is simply way overpriced for the value this woofer brings. Double the subs and you can expect less nulls from frequency interference in the room which will give you a larger listening area, and a sealed will most always exhibit tighter more layered less monotone "one note" sound.  And yes this is one over-priced sub for sure. A larger driver can generally push more air albeit not as quickly... is this the type of information you were looking for? It's pretty basic stuff.

 

But please feel free to experiment yourself, look things up, visit a showroom that you are familiar with, etc. 

 

As for the comment "I hoped for actual information helping me and others understand why the initial comments were supposedly true. I don't see anything in your comments, other than it's true because I say it is." -- don't be lazy, there are many papers and listening tests out there, easily at your fingertips. (I say this kindly as possible)

[The Computer Audiophile]

9 minutes ago, mesonto said:

 

Again, I cannot fault you for not hearing other configurations, it is what it is. So if you are happy with it, and you have the money and you wish to stick to this brand, utterly fantastic!

 

But what the initial commenatator said is still valid. I believe what they were refering to "Over priced, ported, under sized driver..." was that the Loke is simply way overpriced for the value this woofer brings. Double the subs and you can expect less nulls from frequency interference in the room which will give you a larger listening area, and a sealed will most always exhibit tighter more layered less monotone "one note" sound.  And yes this is one over-priced sub for sure. A larger driver can generally push more air albeit not as quickly... is this the type of information you were looking for? It's pretty basic stuff.

 

But please feel free to experiment yourself, look things up, visit a showroom that you are familiar with, etc. 

 

As for the comment "I hoped for actual information helping me and others understand why the initial comments were supposedly true. I don't see anything in your comments, other than it's true because I say it is." -- don't be lazy, there are many papers and listening tests out there, easily at your fingertips. (I say this kindly as possible)

 

circulus in probando

 

Value is inherantly subjective. You're continued argument about value falls on deaf ears. 

 

I see we've moved on to less nulls rather than a relaxed loudspeaker. OK, that's useful. Can you show me where the nulls are in my system that "double the subs" would get rid of? The measurements are provided. 

 

It seems like you haven't seen the measurements of my system. Do you see loose, monotone, one note bass that could be improved by a sealed cabinet? 

 

Physics says a larger subwoofer can push more air. How much air is supposed to be pushed in my room? Is more always better? Can more just be more? Why would I want more air being pushed, if the sub I have measures and souds great?

[Jud]

42 minutes ago, mesonto said:

 

Again, I cannot fault you for not hearing other configurations, it is what it is. So if you are happy with it, and you have the money and you wish to stick to this brand, utterly fantastic!

 

But what the initial commenatator said is still valid. I believe what they were refering to "Over priced, ported, under sized driver..." was that the Loke is simply way overpriced for the value this woofer brings. Double the subs and you can expect less nulls from frequency interference in the room which will give you a larger listening area, and a sealed will most always exhibit tighter more layered less monotone "one note" sound.  And yes this is one over-priced sub for sure. A larger driver can generally push more air albeit not as quickly... is this the type of information you were looking for? It's pretty basic stuff.

 

But please feel free to experiment yourself, look things up, visit a showroom that you are familiar with, etc. 

 

As for the comment "I hoped for actual information helping me and others understand why the initial comments were supposedly true. I don't see anything in your comments, other than it's true because I say it is." -- don't be lazy, there are many papers and listening tests out there, easily at your fingertips. (I say this kindly as possible)

 

To put it plainly and specifically:

 

- What we have for Chris is detailed information about his room setup; detailed information about the expertise of the people who helped him with that setup; and detailed measurements of the results of that setup, before and after room response DSP is applied.

 

- Since you presumably don't have access to Chris's room, what we would need for reliable evidence of what you say would be detailed information about a room setup (yours or anyone else's you have available) for Chris's subwoofer and the one you say is much better; detailed information about the expertise of the people who did that setup, so we know the subs are each set up to best advantage; and detailed measurements of the results, before and after room response DSP so we can understand how these subs perform with and without it.

 

Do you have that information or can you provide it?