First music server - is my spec rubbish?

[TimF]

So here's my first attempt at a spec, I've done some extensive reading on here to come up with this but I still have a few gaps. I suspect I've made some mistakes and improvements are possible. I've added rough UK prices too, if I've chosen something too expensive that isn't necessary and should upgrade elsewhere it'd be useful to know. I wanted to go ATX and full size case so that I could tweak in the future and not worry about space.

 

Cheers, Tim

 

• HDPLEX H5 case ATX Size (400) (not readily available so may not the best choice)
• Apacer RAM x4 2666MHz Apacer RAM (200)
• https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Apacer/D3123185S001?qs=Cb2nCFKsA8prqNusSnCNZw==  
• Intel Optane Memory H10 1TB M.2-2280 SSD (200)
• NET Card FEMTO (400)
• JCAT USB Femto - already purchased - I know there are better options
• HDPLEX 500W ATX Linear Power Supply - already purchased (external one)
• Software - No idea! I use Tidal and could rip some CDs later on

 

AMD Option:

• Ryzen 9 5900X - selected due to large cache size (70mb) (500)
• Motherboard - not sure ideally ATX

Intel Option 

• Intel Core i9-9900k (300)
• Motherboard - ASUS ROG Maximus XIII? (400) - a bit of a guess this one

 

DAC is Lampizator Golden Gate 2 (using USB)
Other kit is ARC amps and Focal Utopia speakers

[Exocer]

Looks like a solid build to me either Intel or AMD. Do you plan to upsample?

 

Cheers,

-Rob

[Darryl R]

Hi Tim,

 

One thing I did in my last build was to switch to a fiber NIC.  There's alot of discussion on them here, but since I only needed Ethernet for control and not music I/O, I used an inexpensive NIC and switch+FMC (assume you're planning to put your music on that 1TB Optane).  Might free up some funds for a better USB cable?

[TimF]

Thanks guys. I have a couple of good usb cables and have picked up a isoregen. I have no external clock for the iso or psu budgeted. 
 

I will try upsampling (not done this before). Dac does DSD 256. 
 

Any views on intel versus amd ? Motherboard advice ? Still missing software options too. 
Streacom looks like a possible alternative case too. 
 

thanks ! 

[Darryl R]

Streacom is a good option if you need to go now.  But I think the HDPlex is more flexible if you can wait (mid Sep in the US), esp. since you have the HDPlex power stuff.

 

I've always used Intel with the integrated graphics.  I'm using the ASUS ROG Strix Z490-E now, but am eyeing the Z590-E, though it would need the pricier 11th gen processor for best results.

[TimF]

Reading further the network card choice and power strategy look sub optimal. 

[Exocer]

3 hours ago, TimF said:

Reading further the network card choice and power strategy look sub optimal. 

Depends what you're trying to accomplish and how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. Personally I've had really good luck with fiber Nics. Some prefer to stick with copper though.

 

There are various useful threads here which cover the networking portion. Please check my profile for some ideas.

[TimF]

Thanks, I'd like to go expensive but not madness levels so probably around 5k (uk pounds). Seems like major problem is mixing and matching LPSU's so that's my next challenge, to optimise this without needed all top of the range ones in place. Any place I can find which specific mix of LPSU's works?

[Nenon]

Use the Taiko ATX and a DIY unregulated LPS. 

 

https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/product/taiko-audio-dc-dc-atx/

 

On 5/16/2021 at 10:44 AM, Nenon said:

Unregulated LPS update

 

I am pretty much set on the 3 designs. As I explained in an earlier post, we simply add more parts to each design. You can start with v1 and then go to v2 and then to v3. As you are going up the ladder no parts remain unused. 

 

The first version (aka v1) is very simple. You have an IEC inlet --> Fuse --> Soft start --> Transformer --> Mosfet rectifier --> Output connector. The version gives you very clean, fast, and transparent sound, but it does not have the body and the full expansive sound as the other two versions. Can too transparent and too fast be a problem? I think it's way too fast and transparent, hence the additional components in the other two versions. But it's all about personal taste. Some may like that version more. 

 

The second version (aka v2) consists of: IEC inlet --> Fuse --> Soft start --> Transformer --> Mosfet rectifier --> Hammond choke --> 3 x Mundorf HC 22,000 uF (each bypassed with VCAP ODAM 0.1 uF film cap) --> Output connector. This is an improvement over v1 in my opinion. It gives you a bit more of everything and is the sweet spot. This is what I have been running for months (until I tried v3). You have about 5mV ripple with this version. You get about 2.3 mOhm output impedance but that's influenced by the wiring you are using and could be higher if you use thin wires or bad connectors.

 

The third version (aka v3) consists of: IEC inlet --> Fuse --> Soft start --> Transformer --> Mosfet rectifier --> Mundorf HC 22,000 uF (bypassed with VCAP ODAM 0.1 uF film cap) --> Hammond choke --> Mundorf HC 22,000 uF (bypassed with VCAP ODAM 0.1 uF film cap) --> Hammond choke --> 3 x Mundorf HC ( 2 x 47,000 uF + 1 x 22,000 uF, each bypassed with VCAP ODAM 0.1 uF film cap) --> Output connector. This version gives away some of the "clean" sound you have in v1 and v2 but is fuller, bigger, massively expensive. Amazing 5uV ripple and nearly half the output impedance compared to v2 - ~1.2 mOhm + the impact of your wiring. 

 

I don't have the prices of the Noratel transformers and the Taiko rectifier, but just to get some idea, let's assume they are $200 each. Here is what I have for the bill of materials with somewhat rounded prices:

 

This is just ballpark pricing to get an idea. Leave it to me, and it would get much more expensive as I would add thick pure copper busbars, multiple runs of expensive wire, exotic connectors, footers, etc. I would also have Modushop fabricate the cases for me, so it's easier to install everything. That also adds to the cost. However, if you see how massive v3 is, it would easily compare to the power supplies of very very expensive amps. If this thing was a commercial product (or a part of a commercial product) in the dealer's network I'd expect it to be over $20K. This is the beauty of DIY :). And as far as R&D goes, the amount of time spent here is on par with many commercial products to say the least. 

 

If you are impatient and don't want to wait anymore, you can order a 24VAC 400VA Toroidy Supreme transformer, get a rectifier of your choice, and get this going. Not my favorite rectifier but something like the Vishay GBPC3504-E4/51 could do the job for the time being, assuming it would be replaced with something better in the future. 

 

That was the easy part of the post. It gets quite complicated from here. As with anything else in life, there will be people with all kinds of different preferences. Some would like cheaper. Some would like better where cost is no object. Some would prefer easier to make. Some would prefer someone else to make it for them. Some would have existing parts they would like to use. And so on... It's hard to cover all possible cases, but here are some random notes to begin with. 

• If you are on a budget, the above can be made a lot cheaper. You can use a cheaper chassis, cheaper IEC inlet, cheaper connectors, cheaper transformers, cheaper capacitors, etc. You can really make this a budget LPS. It would probably still be better than most linear power supplies on the market (most of them use cheap components too). 
• If you are on the opposite end of "on a budget", you can make this even better. You can use even better chassis. You can add good feet to the chassis (i.e. the Gaia I use). You can fabricate copper busbars to screw in the Mundorf caps to (something I am looking to do for myself). You can use the Mundorf copper terminal rings. 
• If you are not handy with drilling/milling we can have Modushop predrill all the holes on the rear panel and the bottom panel. That adds to the price - from their price list guessing around 25 Euro for the rear panel (less than 10 holes) and another 35-45 Euro (more the 20 holes for v3) for the bottom panel. BTW, I have not received this chassis from Modushop yet, so I am just speculating that v3 would fit in it at this point. Pretty sure v2 would fit. But you can also use a smaller chassis for v1 and v2.
• Taiko does not have many mosfet rectifiers, so we have to decide if another batch is needed, if Emile is even willing to run another batch. There are a lot of complications with that... We need to see what the lead times would be. We need to know how many to order. Or we can look for some other alternatives. There is something else I have in mind but would require a PCB. 
• There is a guy in the US and a guy in the EU who are willing to make these unregulated LPS's for other people. The labor fee negotiated was $500, given that the chassis has all the holes pre-drilled. I will make a couple myself just to get the process started and documented.  
• We haven't discussed wiring. I am still making some tests but so far I am leaning towards busbars for the capacitors and a custom OEM copper wire I managed to procure with the Mundorf lugs (which are quite pricey by the way, but I like them). 

 

There is a global shortage of materials. Some of the products mentioned above may be hard to obtain. I mentioned doing a potential group order in the past. I can try to organise that and get the entire BOM. If anyone is interested in that, please contact me on PM before the end of May indicating if you want v2 or v3 and if you want someone to build it for you.

 

Okay, let's keep it at that for now. I can probably keep writing this post the whole day but have other things I need to do now. 

 

 

It hardly gets better than that. 

 

[Exocer]

39 minutes ago, Nenon said:

Use the Taiko ATX and a DIY unregulated LPS. 

 

https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/product/taiko-audio-dc-dc-atx/

 

 

It hardly gets better than that. 

 

This is the best solution I've used so far.

[TimF]

48 minutes ago, Nenon said:

Use the Taiko ATX and a DIY unregulated LPS. 

 

https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/product/taiko-audio-dc-dc-atx/

 

 

It hardly gets better than that. 

 

Hey thanks Nenon, can you build the power supplies? I hear from others to go for the V2 but unclear of overall prices. I am legendary at being bad at soldering and messing with the mains could be a bad idea! Cheers Tim

[TimF]

Getting there after a lot more reading! thanks all for your patience and current answers.... A few questions. I've tried to split these out so they're not too hard to read.

 

CPU and motherboard

• Looking at CPU's the one I looked at is probably too high power consumption for passive cooling. I see the main ones are 3700X AMD and 9900K Intel. Others are the 10900K and 3950x. I am unclear whether new architecture is worth it due to cooling issues and potential underclocking requirements to run these.
• Asus Motherboard Intel Z590, ROG Strix Z590-E seems better than the older Z490 due to M2 memory interface with the processor only applicable to newer 10900K chip.
• Summary: Seems as if the older chips are ok given price versus performance?

USB

• JCAT USB Femto that I own seems like a big downgrade on the newer card and should be changed?

POWER

• HDPLEX 500W ATX external Linear Power Supply that I own is ok but not great - I may start out with this just to try it
• Taiko ATX and unregulated PSU make sense but who can build the unregulated PSUs (UK?)
• To power the 5v Network and 5v USB cards seems as if I need another decent external power supply, is this correct or can the Taiko handle this well?
• If I can't get an unregulated PSU would it be madness to use the HDPLEX to power its DC input then use the two 5v feeds for the network and USB cards???

Thanks, Tim

 

[TimF]

Can anyone answer the above stuff? 😆

[Exocer]

Lots of good questions. I agree it makes sense to start now with the HDPlex 500W and upgrade later 

 

As far as CPU many here are very happy with the 10900K / 3950X. If I were to start my build today I would probably go with either of these for a single CPU build.

 

Go with Z590 if you can. 

 

Yes I happily use an older chip but I suspect the new chips with more cores provide a larger more dynamic sound (all else equal). Would I go with an older chip today? Probably not, unless I got a super good deal on parts.

 

To power the 5V cards, good power matters here too. You'll want to look at Uptone JS-2, JCAT Optimo or Initio, Farad Super3, Sean Jacobs DC3 / DC4, or Teddy Pardo as some seem to be happy with all of these.

 

Yes, the Taiko can handle the 5v cards via internal power or from the pins directly. I have not compared it to external power for my usb/nvme.

 

As for your last suggestion, I believe someone tried powering the Taiko via the Hdplex and it didn't quite work as expected. I can't recall who nor do I know if this occured for multiple user or if it was a one off. I don't think it would hurt to try. Yes the Hdplex can power the cards as well.

[Savolax]

I would not sweat too much about the CPU/MB (unless you want to go really OCD on this). I, for one, have this old i7-3770K (heatsink+FAN) still in use as in my general use PC using Corsair AX760 PSU. I'm sure it could be a lot better with unregulated LPS + Taiko ATX but even with JCAT USB XE (+Farad3 LPS) and Singxer SU-1 USB Bridge /w SOtM clock board (+ Farad3), I find the sound quite fantastic already.

I have not yet tried the much recommended new stuff though so no reference there how good is "my good" in an absolute scale.

 

I would say powering the USB card with external psu is an essential upgrade, would it be USB Femto, USB XE or even something else. I upgraded from USB Femto to USB XE and can highly recommend both cards lps powered. Obviously the XE is better. I have tried only LPS-1.2 and Farad3 and can recommend any of those.

I can't recall if there was comparison of Taiko ATX powered vs external lps on USB cards so I don't know on that matter.

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, Savolax said:

I would not sweat too much about the CPU/MB (unless you want to go really OCD on this). I, for one, have this old i7-3770K (heatsink+FAN) still in use as in my general use PC using Corsair AX760 PSU.

Agreed.  I had one of those in my original server.  I upgraded (so far, twice) not because of the  sound, per se, but because it was not up to the combined demands high resolution, multichannel and DSP.

[Exocer]

CPU and motherboard board selection are important (in my personal experience). Newer infrastructure affords you more direct to CPU lanes, better VRM (depending on what you get) and often times more flexibility. There are a number of threads covering the experiences of a lot people here who were a bit OCD (including myself) but were striving for excellence.

 

I would prefer not to buy now what someone else bought a long time ago and didn't feel the need to upgrade from. My .02.

 

Check the various threads on building DIY servers. Lots of good info.

[Kal Rubinson]

39 minutes ago, Exocer said:

I would prefer not to buy now what someone else bought a long time ago and didn't feel the need to upgrade from. My .02.

Of course and no one is suggesting that anyone do that.  However, it makes the point that one needs to suit the purchase choices to one's actual needs.  If you can define those needs first, making the choices is easier (and my be cheaper).

[kelvinwsy]

On 8/17/2021 at 2:09 AM, TimF said:

Getting there after a lot more reading! thanks all for your patience and current answers.... A few questions. I've tried to split these out so they're not too hard to read.

 

CPU and motherboard

• Looking at CPU's the one I looked at is probably too high power consumption for passive cooling. I see the main ones are 3700X AMD and 9900K Intel. Others are the 10900K and 3950x. I am unclear whether new architecture is worth it due to cooling issues and potential underclocking requirements to run these.
• Asus Motherboard Intel Z590, ROG Strix Z590-E seems better than the older Z490 due to M2 memory interface with the processor only applicable to newer 10900K chip.
• Summary: Seems as if the older chips are ok given price versus performance?

USB

• JCAT USB Femto that I own seems like a big downgrade on the newer card and should be changed?

POWER

• HDPLEX 500W ATX external Linear Power Supply that I own is ok but not great - I may start out with this just to try it
• Taiko ATX and unregulated PSU make sense but who can build the unregulated PSUs (UK?)
• To power the 5v Network and 5v USB cards seems as if I need another decent external power supply, is this correct or can the Taiko handle this well?
• If I can't get an unregulated PSU would it be madness to use the HDPLEX to power its DC input then use the two 5v feeds for the network and USB cards???

Thanks, Tim

 

1. Go Intel CPU if you wish to use upsampling esp using HQPlayer 

2. I had the Hdplex 400 ATX LPSU - older version. It was wimpy! I stuck with ATX PSU's and now use extensive PCIE power filtering.

3. Taiko ATX and unregulated PSU - budget starting at 4000USD and climbing higher with more esoteric wires/capacitors etc. I dont have that kind of budget. 

4. There are LT3045's psu's that can output 5V from 1 to 5 amps from different makers. Powering your SSD's and USB card with outboard LPSU or a rail from super LPSU like Paul Hynes or Sean Jacobs is a more expensive high end way of doing the same thing

5. There are many accounts of Keces P8's powering the Hdplex 800watt DC-DC ATX PSU. But for oversampling more current and power is in my humble opinion better sounding for my musical tastes. 

At the end of the day, it is always the budget constraint that limits how far upgrades can go.

A Taiko top of the line server is just 25000USD or more. NO need to worry about all of the bits and pieces of kit and wires, and OS's etc.

 

Happy Listening

[BTO]

One more option:

Core audio barebone pc. You get a passive case (streacom) and a full psu than you can choose many mobo and cpu into that. No need add-on dc/atx and expensive dc psu. If you don't plan to have high tdp cpu or dsd upsampling this is a very good choice. Full linear solution!

 

so sad that it is not advertised well...

[TimF]

Finally back to the forum. New hd plex case is here! 
 

I now have the hd plex external 500W psu, standard jcat usb and network cards. What would you recommend for a spec now? Motherboard and cpu in particular, ram still the same? 

Thanks 

 

[Lebouwsky]

Please ask Larry from HDplex before you pull the trigger on mb, not all are compatible (space) because of the bigger cpu cooling block. Personally I would choose z690. Some experienced forum members, can’t remember who, reported that the 12th gen intel cpu sounds better. 

[TimF]

Great thanks. I can see a large difference in price between the x570 and 690. How much difference are we talking?