The isolation thread

[R1200CL]

I noticed the design of a digital system chain can be quite demanding. I was finally making a sketch of my own system, and think I may have several potential loops that has the possibility to break the moat the EtherRegen is suppose to create. Or isolation done by the ultraCaps power supplies. 

 

I hope I’m not mixing isolation done by LPS-1 or LPS-1.2, (my EtherRegen is powered by dual serial LPS-1), or isolation done my EtherRegen. My understanding is both items is designed so all possible unwanted loops and noise cannot travel from one item to another. (If applied correctly into a system). 
 

We as users may easily break the isolation applied to both of EtherRegen and the ultraCaps.
With the introduction of clocks as the new hype, things will probably get more complicated.
So I’m thinking this tread should be for those that has, or planning to use a clock with EtherRegen and may also like to use several clocks in their digital chain. And  of cause those that has any other product from Uptone (and Sonore), or plan to buy. 
 

I’m OK with drawing sketches for others, so everyone can learn by hopefully not to many different user cases. 

I haven’t yet made my sketch’s so advanced that I’m showing the isolation breakers. That maybe next step.

It’s been made using an iPad Pro without a pencil and the app Lekh Diagram. 

 

I just ordered a Singxer SU-2 to replace my SU-1.
Clock from @AfterDark. is under evaluation. Waiting for the clock paper. 
 

So I have some questions for @JohnSwenson or @Superdad regarding my (planned) setup.

 

• Do the USB interface create any unwanted issues ?
• Is there a potential loop from my Cisco ?
• The clock is planned with a Cybershaft splitter, so no isolation in clock, but since using LPS-1.2 I’m covered ?

 

In general I would assume any usb connection has potential to create unwanted loops. I’m hoping by the use of LPS-1.2 that such an possible issue is covered. Or maybe the opticalRendu has som sort of isolated USB output ?

 

However that Cisco (or any RJ45 to “the reversed configured EtherRegen”) will create issues. Since I’m having an unused 1st gen opticalModule as well as a LPS-1, connecting that with optical out from the Cisco should do the trick ?

In this case since I’m using fiber only, a isolating LPS-1.2 to power the EtherRegen isn’t needed. So a JS-2 could power maybe power both EtherRegen and the opticalRendu ? (Maybe been answered elsewhere already). 
 

The clock is obviously creating a loop, but maybe not a harmful one. But the answer may suggest clock with isolated outputs or two clocks. 

The Singxer has its own power, that I will bypass by the LPS-1.2. I would assume using the SU-2 own power would really mess up things. 
This is also why I believe in powering my own clock, unless the clock paper can convince me otherwise 😀

 

 

[R1200CL]

37 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Since I’m having an unused 1st gen opticalModule as well as a LPS-1, connecting that with optical out from the Cisco should do the trick ?

Can’t edit, but as I was drawing the OM into the loop, I of cause saw right away, that it wouldn’t work, as OM is only one GHz and EtherRegen is only 100 MHz B side. 
 

Time to consider the OM deluxe or a second EtherRegen 😀
 

Anyway I was thinking of maybe try adding my Sonictransporter to the A side isolating it with the oM, so still things to explore. 

[agladstone]

21 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Can’t edit, but as I was drawing the OM into the loop, I of cause saw right away, that it wouldn’t work, as OM is only one GHz and EtherRegen is only 100 MHz B side. 
 

Time to consider the OM deluxe or a second EtherRegen 😀
 

Anyway I was thinking of maybe try adding my Sonictransporter to the A side isolating it with the oM, so still things to explore. 

What are you using to power the LPS 1.2 powering the EtherRegen? The included Uptone switching power supply? 
I seem to recall that the power supply of any switch should also have ground from Wall AC to DC to help with something (I can’t remember what) that could contaminate the Ethernet cable ? 
I just ordered my EtherRegen for the next shipment in March and Alex told me the included Uptone switching supply is very good to power since it has the AC to DC grounding? 
I also just got a JS-2 but can’t use second rail for EtherRegen since it’s also powering my DAC. 
I also have a LPS 1.2 and a Vinnie Rossi Pure DC4Ever 12V power supply, which of these would be best for EtherRegen and which best for my ISORegen which will be on B side along with my DAC? 

[James Stephens]

There's a DC version of the Singxer SU-2?

[Tokyokyoto]

Maybe instead of the SU-2 consider......audio-gd 20HE (which has 50 ohm clock in and out) so you can get rid of the clock splitter.  

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, agladstone said:

What are you using to power the LPS 1.2 powering the EtherRegen? The included Uptone switching power supply? 

Yes. (The overkill option is to use the JS-2). 

I can try draw you network, but I think powering your EtherRegen with LPS-1.2 isn’t what you have to do as the moat A>B should take care of business. 
 

I don’t know if there is isolation internally in the isoregen, but probably use the LPS-1.2 there. 
 

Has it been confirmed you can’t use the JS-2 as you describe?

Wouldn’t the moat A>B actually make the use possible ?

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, James Stephens said:

There's a DC version of the Singxer SU-2?

I’m using this on my SU-1. Works for SU-2 as well. 
https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/dc99.html

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, Tokyokyoto said:

Maybe instead of the SU-2 consider......audio-gd 20HE (which has 50 ohm clock in and out) so you can get rid of the clock splitter.  

It was under my short evaluation. I read a negative post somewhere here. So I play safe, and ordered the SU-2. Maybe the SU-2 should have its own tread ? 
 

This function of a possible daisy-chain a clock signal would need some explanations in John’s paper I guess. That way of doing things raise some questions. Let’s see how the use of Cybershaft spitter is commented. (If at all). 

It may be part of the future discussion of transferring all digital audio over fiber. If ever happen it’s at least 2 or 3 years ahead.

It’s possible today to transfer USB over fiber. 
 

[James Stephens]

19 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

I’m using this on my SU-1. Works for SU-2 as well. 
https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/dc99.html

Excellent. Thanks for sharing. I am looking at a possible SU-2 purchase for USB to I2S so I will order this if I go that route. All my DC power cables are Ghent Gotham GAC-4/1.

[agladstone]

19 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Yes. (The overkill option is to use the JS-2). 

I can try draw you network, but I think powering your EtherRegen with LPS-1.2 isn’t what you have to do as the moat A>B should take care of business. 
 

I don’t know if there is isolation internally in the isoregen, but probably use the LPS-1.2 there. 

I have been using the LPS 1.2 for the ISORegen. 
Alex told me that while I can’t use the 2nd rail of the JS-2 for the EtherRegen because of the common ground and my DAC will be on B Side and the Power comes into A side, but that I could use the 2nd rail for the ISORegen because they’re both on the B side. 
i just got the JS-2 today and it is replacing the Vinnie Rossi Pure DC4Ever, and I will hopefully get the EtherRegen in about 10 days, so now I’m just trying to plan in advance, but I’ll probably have to do some experimenting and see what combo sounds best. 
I want to get some audio grade Ethernet cables too (I have BlueJeans Cables 6a right now). 
Maybe I’ll try Gents ? I think that’s what you use ? 

[R1200CL]

2 minutes ago, agladstone said:

I think that’s what you use ? 

Yes. https://www.ghentaudio.com/pc/et11.html 

[R1200CL]

6 minutes ago, agladstone said:

Alex told me that while I can’t use the 2nd rail of the JS-2 for the EtherRegen because of the common ground and my DAC will be on B Side and the Power comes into A side, but that I could use the 2nd rail for the ISORegen because they’re both on the B side. 

Well, then there is no doubt I have done tings wrong for some time. 
Reverse use of the EtherRegen obviously need isolation on the incoming Ethernet on B, if a clock is applied.

[agladstone]

He told me that I could use the 2nd rail of JS-2 for EtherRegen if I flipped it around because the A side and my DAC would then be on the same side of the moat if that helps you at all. 

[agladstone]

And the A side what receives the DC power

[R1200CL]

28 minutes ago, agladstone said:

And the A side what receives the DC power

 

Can you feed me with missing information. 
 

 

 

[PYP]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

 

Can you feed me with missing information. 
 

 

 

not to be picky, but...why do you show the LPS 1.2 to the A-side of eR?   The power connector is on the B side.  JS-2 has two outputs, not three.   

[R1200CL]

18 minutes ago, PYP said:

not to be picky, but...why do you show the LPS 1.2 to the A-side of eR?   The power connector is on the B side.  JS-2 has two outputs, not three.   

This is something very quickly drawn and totally unfinished. I need @agladstone input as I lack information of his system. He may not even have an endpoint. 
I’m quite certain the A side gets the power. I shall look again at Alex picture he posted yesterday. 
 

Edit. Yes power is on A side. 

 

[Tokyokyoto]

Not sure if this has been asked anywhere but can anyone tell me if there is a way to check if the moat has been broken with a multimeter?

[R1200CL]

@Tokyokyoto

....what makes you suspect a broken moat ?

 

The eR is working well ?

Have you dismantle the unit ?

 

[skatbelt]

My understanding is that if devices in front of and behind the 'moat' share a building's common ground earth rod via their AC receptacles, there is always some form of breaking the moat and creating an electrical path for noise. In other words: you can only isolate completely when the parts behind the moat have an own (or no) reference to ground (second earth rod, floating etc.).

[Tokyokyoto]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

@Tokyokyoto

....what makes you suspect a broken moat ?

 

The eR is working well ?

Have you dismantle the unit ?

 

I haven’t got it yet.  Friday.  Just curious to know if there is a way to confirm.

[GryphonGuy]

44 minutes ago, Tokyokyoto said:

I haven’t got it yet.  Friday.  Just curious to know if there is a way to confirm.

 

Don't panic. Just enjoy. As long as you are powering the eR with its own exclusive power supply, there is little chance that you will have "a broken moat" to use your words.  After the first few hours of operation, the sheer excellence of the music created by the clean ethernet signal will make you forget all these nit-picking worries that only concern a few people. I hope you don't become one of the few people.

 

Regards

GG

[Tokyokyoto]

 

6 hours ago, skatbelt said:

My understanding is that if devices in front of and behind the 'moat' share a building's common ground earth rod via their AC receptacles, there is always some form of breaking the moat and creating an electrical path for noise. In other words: you can only isolate completely when the parts behind the moat have an own (or no) reference to ground (second earth rod, floating etc.).

 

So, I myself.have both up and downstream components connected to a Tripoint Troy which has its own dedicated isolated ground but still we all have different configurations.  If one could simply take a multimeter to verify it would alleviate any confusion.

[R1200CL]

6 hours ago, Tokyokyoto said:

If one could simply take a multimeter to verify it would alleviate any confusion.

Things isn’t that easy. You probably need to read through John’s various posts last 2 years. 

[Tokyokyoto]

13 hours ago, GryphonGuy said:

I hope you don't become one of the few people.

You mean the “deplorable”?