The isolation thread

[skatbelt]

8 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Things isn’t that easy. You probably need to read through John’s various posts last 2 years. 

 

Actually, I think @Tokyokyoto is right and it is that easy: if two components you think are isolated show continuity via a multimeter on their grounded chassis parts, then there's work to be done...

[R1200CL]

22 hours ago, skatbelt said:

My understanding is that if devices in front of and behind the 'moat' share a building's common ground earth rod via their AC receptacles, there is always some form of breaking the moat and creating an electrical path for noise. In other words: you can only isolate completely when the parts behind the moat have an own (or no) reference to ground (second earth rod, floating etc.).

You probably have a very good point. Let’s go a bit back to basics. 
 

Without dragging mixing of power in, the 3 first sketches isn’t problematic at all. 
Hopefully it’s quite obvious where power can be mixed in as well, by using the JS-2. 

But the last one is the an issue where a reverse configuration of an EtherRegen with an external clock, is creating a loop, and need isolation.

 

I was thinking an opticalModule Deluxe would help. Actually the only option , except for adding a second EtherRegen. 
 

So @Superdad , do you agree in this ?
 

 

[R1200CL]

37 minutes ago, skatbelt said:

 

Actually, I think @Tokyokyoto is right and it is that easy: if two components you think are isolated show continuity via a multimeter on their grounded chassis parts, then there's work to be done...

Well, if we can end a discussion about how to do, or verify isolation, by the use of a multimeter, that would be great.

 

@Superdad Is this correct ?

Can we just place a multimeter between A and B side ?
 

For planning purposes, some of us probably like to understand that a need of a multimeter isn’t needed after a purchase to understand if you have put ting together correct 😀

 

Also this isn’t just ohms law. This is frequently depending loads, that even John said he’s struggling to measure. Remember there is still unanswered answers on John’s white paper. 

 

[agladstone]

On 3/10/2021 at 3:26 PM, R1200CL said:

 

Can you feed me with missing information. 
 

 

 

@R1200CL This is so generous of you, Thank you for creating this! 
First, the DC4EVER is another brand (Vinnie Rossi) Ultracapacitor Power Supply (so it does the same thing as the LPS 1.2 ). 
So in my case, either the DC4EVER OR the LPS 1.2 will power the EtherRegen. 
Next, I use an Aurender Music Server, so it has its own built in linear power supply, so it goes straight to my Furman IT Reference 20i Power Conditioner and that goes into its own dedicated and isolated 20A AC line (so no JS2 connection to it). I do also use two USB reclockers (so Aurender-> ISORegen ->ifi iUSB 3.0-> Mytek Brooklyn DAC +) 

Ideally the ifi iUSB 3.0 should get its own power supply, but I have been using a Ghent JSG 360 Y dc cable to power both the ifi and the ISORegen at the same time. It has been working fine, but I do think it’s prob best if they each had their own? 
For network as of now I have a Cable Modem-> Netgear wifi + Switch-> (coming on Monday) EtherRegen -> Aurender-> ISORegen->iUSB 3.0->Brooklyn DAC + 

[JohnSwenson]

3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Well, if we can end a discussion about how to do, or verify isolation, by the use of a multimeter, that would be great.

 

@Superdad Is this correct ?

Can we just place a multimeter between A and B side ?
 

For planning purposes, some of us probably like to understand that a need of a multimeter isn’t needed after a purchase to understand if you have put ting together correct 😀

 

Also this isn’t just ohms law. This is frequently depending loads, that even John said he’s struggling to measure. Remember there is still unanswered answers on John’s white paper. 

 

Thanks for the pictures, that makes it a WHOLE lot easier to understand what you are talking about.

 

The last one (B > A with clock) may or may not have an isolation issue depending on the power supply on the clock. I usually am primarily talking about leakage current coming in from the network side of things (cheap SMPS on all network equipment). This contains both low and high impedance components. These are small multiples of line frequencies (50/60, 100/120 etc). A simple continuity test does NOT tell the story. A shorted connection definitely means there is no isolation, but the meter saying there is no continuity ONLY means that for DC, there still may be a path for leakage current.

 

In the specific case, the low impedance leakage IS blocked by the normal Ethernet transformers but the high impedance leakage current is NOT blocked by the transformers so it can wind up on the clock connection. That leakage current cannot make it to the endpoint through the optical connection, but it CAN make it to the endpoint via the power supplies. The easiest way to stop that from happening is to make sure that the negative of the supply powering the clock is connected to safety ground. That can be any supply, as long as negative is connecting to safety ground. That connection to safety ground will "shunt" the high impedance leakage back to the AC mains since the path through the power supplies is significantly higher impedance than the safety ground.

 

John S.

[agladstone]

6 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

Thanks for the pictures, that makes it a WHOLE lot easier to understand what you are talking about.

 

The last one (B > A with clock) may or may not have an isolation issue depending on the power supply on the clock. I usually am primarily talking about leakage current coming in from the network side of things (cheap SMPS on all network equipment). This contains both low and high impedance components. These are small multiples of line frequencies (50/60, 100/120 etc). A simple continuity test does NOT tell the story. A shorted connection definitely means there is no isolation, but the meter saying there is no continuity ONLY means that for DC, there still may be a path for leakage current.

 

In the specific case, the low impedance leakage IS blocked by the normal Ethernet transformers but the high impedance leakage current is NOT blocked by the transformers so it can wind up on the clock connection. That leakage current cannot make it to the endpoint through the optical connection, but it CAN make it to the endpoint via the power supplies. The easiest way to stop that from happening is to make sure that the negative of the supply powering the clock is connected to safety ground. That can be any supply, as long as negative is connecting to safety ground. That connection to safety ground will "shunt" the high impedance leakage back to the AC mains since the path through the power supplies is significantly higher impedance than the safety ground.

 

John S.

By safety ground do you mean running a wire from AC wall receptacle to the negative of the DC cable in from power supply or do you mean wire from negative in from DC to the thumb screw ground on the case of the EtherRegen? 

[skatbelt]

Just to be clear, I didn't say that a simple continuity test tells the full story. I said that if two components you think are isolated show continuity via a multimeter on their grounded chassis parts, then there is work to be done. Because the test shows there is a path for leakage current.

[skatbelt]

7 minutes ago, agladstone said:

By safety ground do you mean running a wire from AC wall receptacle to the negative of the DC cable in from power supply or do you mean wire from negative in from DC to the thumb screw ground on the case of the EtherRegen? 

 

Not JS but I am quite sure he means safety ground in general, the safety (common) ground of a buildings electrical system.

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, agladstone said:

By safety ground do you mean running a wire from AC wall receptacle to the negative of the DC cable in from power supply or do you mean wire from negative in from DC to the thumb screw ground on the case of the EtherRegen? 

This is the good old JSGT 😀

The third pin.
 

https://audiophilestyle.com/search/?q=Jsgt&quick=1

 

Ethregen user manual describe grounding for the EtherRegen. 
https://d11fdyfhxcs9cr.cloudfront.net/templates/32726/myimages/etherregen_user_guide.pdf
Study it well. 
 

(I have a question later myself with a sketch. Be patient.)

[Cornan]

I get all nostalgic now! 😊

[R1200CL]

Adding some sketches. I expect everyone to agree. 

 

[Tokyokyoto]

With all that’s come to light I wonder.....is it possible to have the etheregen and a SOtM network switch hooked up to the same clock without breaking the moat?  

[R1200CL]

So next hopefully very simple question is more or less answered in the EtherRegen user manual, so I start with pasting in the text from manual:

 

(I’ve added the bold and colored part). 
 

Use of the EtherREGEN’s Ground terminal screw:
“We have measured high-source-impedance leakage on Ethernet cables coming from various other common network gear and computers. Leakage is common-mode AC current traveling over DC connections. It is pernicious stuff—passing easily along both analog and digital connections in our audio systems—and it is desirable to shunt it away. We address leakage in the design of the EtherREGEN in several ways, including our use of RJ45 magnetics having 12 tiny transformer
cores per port. And their center-taps are wired to ground and to the Ethernet switch chip through capacitors to maximally block port- to-port leakage. This works best if the EtherREGEN is grounded—either through the power supply or via the ground screw.

 

The DC output 0-volt/-VE (‘ground’/shell) of the UpTone-branded AC>DC power supply included with the EtherREGEN is common to AC mains ground. When our supply is used to power the EtherREGEN it is NOT necessary to use the Ground screw. [Do not assume that 3rd party linear power supplies are like this—some are and some are not. Some multi-rail supplies have separate diode bridges and transformer secondaries and thus each output ground is "floated.” This is easy to test with a continuity/multimeter (be sure power is disconnected.)]

 

If you power the EtherREGEN with a "floating" supply—one whose 0- volt/-VE (‘ground’/shell) is not common to AC mains ground—then ideally the Ground screw of the EtherREGEN should be used. You can do so by running an insulated wire safely to some AC mains ground or to the chassis of a known-grounded component in your audio system. [By the way, our UltraCap LPS-1.2 is a completely "floated" and isolated supply, so if using it with EtherREGEN the ground screw should be used.]

 

Please keep in mind that all of the above regarding grounding concerns only the blocking of leakage from one RJ45 jack on the ‘A’ side to another RJ45 jack also on the 'A' side. Regardless of grounding, zero AC leakage from upstream Ethernet devices ever gets past the full active digital isolation and reclocking ADIMTM—to the EtherREGEN’s 'B'-side port.”

In the picture below the earth is applied between A side and safety ground. And an isolated power as the LPS-1.2 is used. 
But no RJ45 is in use, hence no need to ground. 
 

However I planning to apply my Sonictransporter to the A side as a test. Still I don’t think the grounding is needed before another RJ45 is added. 
 

So sketch below has an error, as no need to apply safety ground from the EtherRegen. 
I assume you won’t do any harm if you do either. Except adding an antenna in worst case. 
 

 

 

[R1200CL]

16 minutes ago, Tokyokyoto said:

With all that’s come to light I wonder.....is it possible to have the etheregen and a SOtM network switch hooked up to the same clock without breaking the moat?  

I let you think like this. Is there any difference if adding a PC or any endpoint in those sketches ? What you think ?

 

BTW, where do you like to add the SOtM ? And why ?

[Tokyokyoto]

I’ve had the SOtM for a couple of years.  My system does Home Theater too.  I plan on going from router to SOtM to my various (three) front end video components and also from the SOtM to the etheregen to computer to DAC.  I  wanted the option to hook the SOtM and etheregen to the same 50 ohm clock.

[R1200CL]

@Tokyokyoto

That’s next step. Hooking up 2 devices to a clock. That’s the interesting part. Just had to finish basics. 
But you could anyway purchase another EtherRegen and sell SOtM 😁

 

Or I think you in any case will need an isolated power like the LPS-1.2

 

But give me time. I’m installing iPfire right now. Planning to make a tread about separate network using iPFire. Firewall with fiber. 

[Tokyokyoto]

I have dedicated psu’s to all my devices.  The issue (I think) would be with using the one clock on devices that are on each side of the eRegen.  Hopefully someone from UpTone will let us all know.

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, Tokyokyoto said:

I have dedicated psu’s to all my devices.  The issue (I think) would be with using the one clock on devices that are on each side of the eRegen.  Hopefully someone from UpTone will let us all know.

Is it something like this in first sketch ? Or do you like to use A side to your SOtM ? Equal to second sketch. 

Just the principle. Shouldn’t matter if separate power or not in first sketch. 
(Grounding EtherRegen not needed first sketch. Probably needed in second if using LPS-1.2). 
Forgot one power supply second sketch. 

 

 

[R1200CL]

@Tokyokyoto

 

What about the sketch below. I’m sure Uptone likes it to 😜

 

 

[Tokyokyoto]

I am not sure but I think for that configuration to work the signal out of the switch would need to go into side B of Eregen and out of A which would overide the effect of the clocking.  Hopefully someone from UpTone will chime in.

[Tokyokyoto]

I think the ground post and the coax have common ground.  

[James Stephens]

36 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

@Tokyokyoto

 

What about the sketch below. I’m sure Uptone likes it to 😜

 

 

 

White to move. Mate in 3.

[James Stephens]

47 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

@Tokyokyoto

 

What about the sketch below. I’m sure Uptone likes it to 😜

 

 

 

Hi. This is ill-posed. There is nothing connected to the B side of either ER here except a clock. 

[James Stephens]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

Is it something like this in first sketch ? Or do you like to use A side to your SOtM ? Equal to second sketch. 

Just the principle. Shouldn’t matter if separate power or not in first sketch. 
(Grounding EtherRegen not needed first sketch. Probably needed in second if using LPS-1.2). 
Forgot one power supply second sketch. 

 

 

Hi there. Un-utilized B-side of ER in the second pic. Pic 1 looks like a sensible setup.

[agladstone]

8 hours ago, Cornan said:

I get all nostalgic now! 😊

What’s up @Cornan !! Haven’t come across posts from you in a while. I hope all is well!! The