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The isolation thread


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1 hour ago, R1200CL said:


Is it something like this in first sketch ? Or do you like to use A side to your SOtM ? Equal to second sketch. 

Just the principle. Shouldn’t matter if separate power or not in first sketch. 
(Grounding EtherRegen not needed first sketch. Probably needed in second if using LPS-1.2). 
Forgot one power supply second sketch. 

 

 

4341EF40-9013-48BD-9B45-6135BB5BEAE3.jpeg

10AB8F18-95F3-4A6B-BF34-27D67620463E.jpeg

 

8 hours ago, Cornan said:

I get all nostalgic now! 😊

@R1200CL FYI - I’m experiencing some very strange negative effects since yesterday when installed my new JS2 last night and using both outputs of JS2 on “same side”, using output 1 for my DAC and output 2 for my USB reclockers, so I’m assuming it’s due to the fact both outputs share a common ground and that somehow that’s creating an issue with ground or current that is now probably traveling via the USB cable ? 
Anyhow, I’m think in general and especially for your purposes of isolation within a system, best to only use one output on JS2 going to just one device?? 

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19 hours ago, agladstone said:

By safety ground do you mean running a wire from AC wall receptacle to the negative of the DC cable in from power supply or do you mean wire from negative in from DC to the thumb screw ground on the case of the EtherRegen? 

 The ER thumb screw is on the A side thus won't help in this case, you need to somehow connect the safety ground of your AC mains to the B side, you can either connect the negative of the clock supply to safety ground or connect safety ground to the shield of the clock cable. Either should work. Do NOT trust any "isolation" of the circuitry in the clock box itself, even if it has some circuit for this it is highly unlikely it is effective for high impedance leakage.

 

The safety ground is the "third pin" of the electrical plug.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Tokyokyoto said:

I think the ground post and the coax have common ground.  

The grounding thumb screw is on the A side, the shield of the coax connector is on the B side. The thumb screw is there so that even A to A connections can have high impedance leakage current shunted even if you are using an isolated supply.

 

John S.

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5 hours ago, agladstone said:

What’s up @Cornan !! Haven’t come across posts from you in a while. I hope all is well!! The 

Hi @agladstone! Great to see you posting as well!! 😊 No, I'm just posting in the music section nowdays. Still listening to music just as much as before but are not in constant persue of better sound as I use to. Other interests eats up my time and money. 😊

 

 

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5 hours ago, Tokyokyoto said:

The photos that I’ve seen all show the power input, thumb screw and coax on the same side B.


Have a look at this photo:

B and A side isn’t physical each side of the EtherRegen. 
The “moat” is clearly visible on this picture. That green line on the PCB
So both ground and 7-12V is A side. And so is the ground terminal. 

75 or 50 ohm is B side. 
 

Hope this makes it 100% understandable, and no more doubt what’s on the different sides. 
 

E2DCC535-ECAC-46F2-B6FC-2230B67F1B8B.jpeg

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11 hours ago, James Stephens said:

 

Hi. This is ill-posed. There is nothing connected to the B side of either ER here except a clock. 

The point is you can connect anything to the isolated B side in that example. 
But only if the clock is powered be LPS-1.2. I think. I’m not sure. 
 

My reason for saying this is because I was also sure I broke some isolation by adding an external switch to B and a clock, but John’s answer said I didn’t. 
 

I repost the picture you comment on. As well the one I was thinking I was creating a loop between external input switch and a clock. 

(Forget about that grounding, it should been removed). 

777A4B1C-433C-4C51-8207-9AE05DCE2BB9.thumb.jpeg.2add2a9904f04909cb275ad6d86a3762.jpegF53539D0-FC42-47B6-BD51-817421920F38.thumb.jpeg.6b4ac7a3fd532e28df7cf957f2ee91a5.jpegAs I may be wrong and that B clock loop is braking isolation between those 2 EtherRegens. 

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11 hours ago, James Stephens said:

Hi there. Un-utilized B-side of ER in the second pic. Pic 1 looks like a sensible setup.


I add the pics in my reply just so easier to follow. 
B side in second sketch could be connected to anything (I hope). Shouldn’t matter. And you get the benefit of 1 GB on that something which in @Tokyokyotois a SOtM switch. He hasn’t yet said how his configuration is or planned to be. But I was hinting that he may be better with a second EtherRegen instead of a SOtM 😀

I myself isn’t sure if pic 1 will be the best option. Cause you more or less wasted the EtherRegen. (Clean B to SOtM)
If I understand @Tokyokyotocorrectly, he likes to have the audio network done by EtherRegen and his TV done by SOtM. And at the same time use a clock with splitter to both switch’s. 
 

So actually I think second sketch is his only option, or add a second EtherRegen. 
However I do see a challenge in that configuration, as you probably is shunting B to A. 

I think I have to do another sketch where B is in and A is out. Can’t see it clearly right now. 
(And I was enjoying some wine making the first sketches yesterday 😄). 
 

6713ED42-F79D-426B-A65D-8C428EDFC8E8.thumb.jpeg.dc64d2dcb54341ef89ce3edc6a4c4ac9.jpeg196EEBC0-BA87-483A-B4D1-962B1A4BCFF5.thumb.jpeg.dc2f5b70eeec4a82d1b50625d919461d.jpeg
 

EDIT: This is actually what he wrote:

“I’ve had the SOtM for a couple of years.  My system does Home Theater too.  I plan on going from router to SOtM to my various (three) front end video components and also from the SOtM to the etheregen to computer to DAC.  I  wanted the option to hook the SOtM and etheregen to the same 50 ohm clock.”

 

SOtM first. My sketch is wrong for his purpose. (But not a waste).  I make new ones. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, R1200CL said:


Have a look at this photo:

B and A side isn’t physical each side of the EtherRegen. 
The “moat” is clearly visible on this picture. That green line on the PCB
So both ground and 7-12V is A side. And so is the ground terminal. 

75 or 50 ohm is B side. 
 

Hope this makes it 100% understandable, and no more doubt what’s on the different sides. 
 

E2DCC535-ECAC-46F2-B6FC-2230B67F1B8B.jpeg

Parts of your diagram are puzzling because they do not correspond to the physical connection.  The B side at the top of this picture shows physical connections for ground, power, external clock.  Your drawings only show the clock connected to the B side.  If you are showing how the eR functions internally on your drawings, it would be helpful to have that stated on the drawing.  I think that most eR users will otherwise question what you show because they know where they connected the ground, etc.

 

Only trying to be helpful.  

Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3    

Cables:  Kubala-Sosna    Power management:  Shunyata    Room:  Vicoustics  

 

“Nature is pleased with simplicity.”  Isaac Newton

"As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed."  Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man

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In regards to JSGT for the EtherRegen, am I understanding correctly that if I connect the thumbscrew to AC wall ground, that it will only help the A side if I was using it as a switch for more than 1 component? 
I think what @JohnSwenson was saying is that to achieve JSGT for the EtherRegen for the B side as output, that I must connect a wire from the negative outer shell of the power supply dc cable to AC Ground (I will be going copper Ethernet in A side from my wifi router and out B side into my Aurender music server)? 
 

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23 minutes ago, agladstone said:

In regards to JSGT for the EtherRegen, am I understanding correctly that if I connect the thumbscrew to AC wall ground, that it will only help the A side if I was using it as a switch for more than 1 component? 

Yes, that’s my understanding of the user manual. Do you read it differently?

 

26 minutes ago, agladstone said:

I think what @JohnSwenson was saying is that to achieve JSGT for the EtherRegen for the B side as output, that I must connect a wire from the negative outer shell of the power supply dc cable to AC Ground (I will be going copper Ethernet in A side from my wifi router and out B side into my Aurender music server)? 

I shall make a sketch later as promised before. (If I have all details your system by now). 

Is your power supply grounded ? And why do you think it needs grounding ? Have you open it ?

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On 3/11/2021 at 9:57 PM, JohnSwenson said:

Thanks for the pictures, that makes it a WHOLE lot easier to understand what you are talking about.

 

The last one (B > A with clock) may or may not have an isolation issue depending on the power supply on the clock. I usually am primarily talking about leakage current coming in from the network side of things (cheap SMPS on all network equipment). This contains both low and high impedance components. These are small multiples of line frequencies (50/60, 100/120 etc). A simple continuity test does NOT tell the story. A shorted connection definitely means there is no isolation, but the meter saying there is no continuity ONLY means that for DC, there still may be a path for leakage current.

 

In the specific case, the low impedance leakage IS blocked by the normal Ethernet transformers but the high impedance leakage current is NOT blocked by the transformers so it can wind up on the clock connection. That leakage current cannot make it to the endpoint through the optical connection, but it CAN make it to the endpoint via the power supplies. The easiest way to stop that from happening is to make sure that the negative of the supply powering the clock is connected to safety ground. That can be any supply, as long as negative is connecting to safety ground. That connection to safety ground will "shunt" the high impedance leakage back to the AC mains since the path through the power supplies is significantly higher impedance than the safety ground.

 

John S.

 

Or just make the power supply to the Clock and/or Endpoint an Uptone LPS 1.2!

 

 

Intel NUC 8i7BEH (Roon Rock) --> M1 Mac Mini (HQPlayer) --> English Electric 8 Switch --> Sonore Optical Module --> Uptone EtherRegen + AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown Clock --> Holo Audio Red (NAA)  --> Holo Audio May KTE DAC --> Holo Audio Serene Preamp --> JL Audio CR-1 Crossover --> [ (Parasound JC 1+ Monoblocks --> Monitor Audio Platinum PL 300 II Speakers) + JL Audio f113v2 Subwoofer ]

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14 hours ago, R1200CL said:


I add the pics in my reply just so easier to follow. 
B side in second sketch could be connected to anything (I hope). Shouldn’t matter. And you get the benefit of 1 GB on that something which in @Tokyokyotois a SOtM switch. He hasn’t yet said how his configuration is or planned to be. But I was hinting that he may be better with a second EtherRegen instead of a SOtM 😀

I myself isn’t sure if pic 1 will be the best option. Cause you more or less wasted the EtherRegen. (Clean B to SOtM)
If I understand @Tokyokyotocorrectly, he likes to have the audio network done by EtherRegen and his TV done by SOtM. And at the same time use a clock with splitter to both switch’s. 
 

So actually I think second sketch is his only option, or add a second EtherRegen. 
However I do see a challenge in that configuration, as you probably is shunting B to A. 

I think I have to do another sketch where B is in and A is out. Can’t see it clearly right now. 
(And I was enjoying some wine making the first sketches yesterday 😄). 
 

6713ED42-F79D-426B-A65D-8C428EDFC8E8.thumb.jpeg.dc64d2dcb54341ef89ce3edc6a4c4ac9.jpeg196EEBC0-BA87-483A-B4D1-962B1A4BCFF5.thumb.jpeg.dc2f5b70eeec4a82d1b50625d919461d.jpeg
 

EDIT: This is actually what he wrote:

“I’ve had the SOtM for a couple of years.  My system does Home Theater too.  I plan on going from router to SOtM to my various (three) front end video components and also from the SOtM to the etheregen to computer to DAC.  I  wanted the option to hook the SOtM and etheregen to the same 50 ohm clock.”

 

SOtM first. My sketch is wrong for his purpose. (But not a waste).  I make new ones. 

 

 

Missing B-side connections aside .. these diagrams really are very well done. Could you perhaps link to a sample file or two that others could download and import into Lekh diagram? 

Intel NUC 8i7BEH (Roon Rock) --> M1 Mac Mini (HQPlayer) --> English Electric 8 Switch --> Sonore Optical Module --> Uptone EtherRegen + AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown Clock --> Holo Audio Red (NAA)  --> Holo Audio May KTE DAC --> Holo Audio Serene Preamp --> JL Audio CR-1 Crossover --> [ (Parasound JC 1+ Monoblocks --> Monitor Audio Platinum PL 300 II Speakers) + JL Audio f113v2 Subwoofer ]

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12 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Yes, that’s my understanding of the user manual. Do you read it differently?

 

I shall make a sketch later as promised before. (If I have all details your system by now). 

Is your power supply grounded ? And why do you think it needs grounding ? Have you open it ?

I asked the designer about grounding and he said it was grounded only from AC Wall to the case but that the output dc was not grounded. 

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On 3/13/2021 at 3:23 PM, PYP said:

Parts of your diagram are puzzling because they do not correspond to the physical connection.  The B side at the top of this picture shows physical connections for ground, power, external clock.  Your drawings only show the clock connected to the B side.  If you are showing how the eR functions internally on your drawings, it would be helpful to have that stated on the drawing.  I think that most eR users will otherwise question what you show because they know where they connected the ground, etc.

 

Only trying to be helpful.  


Do you agree with this ? The red fence is A side. 

Meaning B side has connection to both side of the “moat”. 
 

I’m not sure I follow you. Maybe hand draw a sketch and upload ?

I don’t mind creating a different symbol in my sketches for the EtherRegen. Please suggest. 
I could even add the picture. The app allows for that. I just think it may be more complicated to understand if I actually shows A and B on same side in an illustration/sketch. 
 

I hope we’re not ending up requesting Uptone to add  A and B labeling on the EtherRegen itself 🤪
 

3D6E0B64-9147-489D-A298-D193228498C2.jpeg

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12 hours ago, James Stephens said:

Missing B-side connections aside .. these diagrams really are very well done. Could you perhaps link to a sample file or two that others could download and import into Lekh diagram? 


I will do soon. 
But these things is very easy to draw. You can group items to make a symbol. You have to draw connectors every time, so basically you will only benefit from my one custom symbol (the EtherRegen).

I must admit i almost gave up on the app, until the developer shared som YouTube videos with me. And now I’m thinking of purchasing an Apple Pencil. 
 

I may create a new EtherRegen symbol if I just understand which direction @PYP like us to take. 

I use blue color for coax clock, red for any power, green for RJ45 ethernet cables and orange/yellow for fiber (as they often is in real). 

So far I only used black for USB. We’re not yet there with USB cables into the equation. Then it may, or may not getting very complicated, as I think USB and isolation is probably a subject by itself. (And then add external USB reclocking). So for now let’s expand the isolation topics the next day’s to se if we can understand what happens with splitting a clock in two using the Cybershaft 50 ohm splitter. Not sure how many is planning for dual or triple clocks. (Hence my post of standardize on 50 ohm). 

 

If people prefer real pictures of items, it’s possible, but I think sometimes that isn’t always the best, and it normally complicates the sketches, and even makes the idea behind them to vanish in a mess of crossings lines. 
 

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1 hour ago, R1200CL said:


Do you agree with this ? The red fence is A side. 

Meaning B side has connection to both side of the “moat”. 
 

I’m not sure I follow you. Maybe hand draw a sketch and upload ?

I don’t mind creating a different symbol in my sketches for the EtherRegen. Please suggest. 
I could even add the picture. The app allows for that. I just think it may be more complicated to understand if I actually shows A and B on same side in an illustration/sketch. 
 

I hope we’re not ending up requesting Uptone to add  A and B labeling on the EtherRegen itself 🤪
 

3D6E0B64-9147-489D-A298-D193228498C2.jpeg

I am probably just adding complexity to what you are trying to do.  Most of the drawings of systems that I've seen are the physical connections (for example, to connect a ground wire to the eR you connect a wire to, as the photo indicates, the  'B' Side of EtherREGEN.  Likewise, if someone told you where the power inlet is, they would say "Plug your LPS into the B side."

 

You are indicating how the eR functions, thus the ground, for your purposes, is on the 'A' Side of EtherREGEN (as the photo is labeled), that is, it is within your red fence.  

 

Your diagrams seem to be helping folks, so please just keep your current system. 

Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3    

Cables:  Kubala-Sosna    Power management:  Shunyata    Room:  Vicoustics  

 

“Nature is pleased with simplicity.”  Isaac Newton

"As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed."  Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man

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45 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

@Tokyokyoto

 

 

I made you two sketches. I suppose this is the only two possible options for you now.

I don’t know if you’re using isolated power or not.  
 

I would assume you prefer A > B as that benefits clock best. 

 

27FB61A6-E24E-4B92-9206-16B2BCBD522F.jpeg

F64635FB-3A5F-4F37-B006-2BE245CC1479.jpeg

Hi there,

 

#1 looks ok to me but I do see a possible problem with pic #2; there is the potential for high impedance/low frequency leakage currents to travel e.g from the router through the SOtM switch and along the clock line to the clock and then back along the other clock line to the B-side of the ER and to the DAC. 

 

Perhaps a JSSG Ethernet cable from the router to the switch would nullify this concern ? ... funny I was just saying earlier in another post that I use them everywhere in my system lol.

 

Best,

James

 

Intel NUC 8i7BEH (Roon Rock) --> M1 Mac Mini (HQPlayer) --> English Electric 8 Switch --> Sonore Optical Module --> Uptone EtherRegen + AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown Clock --> Holo Audio Red (NAA)  --> Holo Audio May KTE DAC --> Holo Audio Serene Preamp --> JL Audio CR-1 Crossover --> [ (Parasound JC 1+ Monoblocks --> Monitor Audio Platinum PL 300 II Speakers) + JL Audio f113v2 Subwoofer ]

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On 3/12/2021 at 1:22 AM, agladstone said:

EtherRegen -> Aurender-> ISORegen->iUSB 3.0->Brooklyn DAC + 


Have I got your components right ?

I didn’t draw that Y-slit to those USB items, as I understand you have both LPS-1.2 and DC4Ever. 
I hope you have bought the USPCB. It’s a $35 no brainer. You can switch of Vbus to DAC with it, if the DAC doesn’t require Vbus. If the DAC require 5V, put your best power supply to power the last USB device.

 

I don’t understand why you’re powering the DAC with JS-2, as my understanding is this DAC has its own power. (EDIT: I understand you can choose to add 12 VDC). 
 

Anyway I think your setup should be quite straight forward. 
You can purchase another LPS-1.2 or sell the iFi instead of that DC splitter. Do you hear a difference ?
 

I you read my tread https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/62169-we-need-a-new-standard-in-transferring-digital-signals-between-audio-equipment/?tab=comments#comment-1113235, you will find a tip of a manufacturer that do USB over fiber. 
 

4E582BCB-C52A-48DA-B5CB-3464EF4F25A0.jpeg

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@R1200CL - Almost correct! 
the JS2 is powering the Mytek Brooklyn DAC + (it has built in switching mode supply which is not good, I actually even physically removed it !!) - However the great thing about it is that it allows you to also use your own external 12V LPSU , which I think really elevates its performance! 
Also, I will be using the 12V DC4EVER to power the EtherRegen (comes tomorrow:) ) and the LPS-1.2 to power the USB reclockers (I may even remove the ISORegen and just use the ifi iUSB3.0 for now or at least until I have another power supply for it since using the 2nd rail not the JS2 created a ton of strange electrical problems in my system). 

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On 3/12/2021 at 1:22 AM, agladstone said:

so it goes straight to my Furman IT Reference 20i Power Conditioner and that goes into its own dedicated and isolated 20A AC line (so no JS2 connection to it).

I think this may be the source of your issues. Shouldn’t also JS-2 be connected to that power conditioner. ?

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5 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

I think this may be the source of your issues. Shouldn’t also JS-2 be connected to that power conditioner. ?

Everything in my entire system (except my 1,000 watt / channel Mono block amplifiers and my two subwoofers) are connected to the Furman. The power amps and subwoofers all go straight to wall and each have their own dedicated 20Amp lines direct to circuit box.

That probably was a typo saying the JS2 did not, it does! 

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