Room Treatment - New video from GIK

[Confused]

A new video from GIK.

I found the extent by which a large null was reduced with room treatment to be both interesting and perhaps a little surprising.  That said, they have added a LOT of room treatment for this demonstration, far more that most would do for a domestic room. (Presumably).

The "before and after" recordings are also interesting.  Is it me, or does the "after" recording sound perhaps a little dead?  Maybe you can go too far with these things?

This is a short video, and well worth the time to watch I think.

 

 

 

[Marco Klobas]

The amount of panels chosen, match the classic layout to treat acoustically an average room, IMO. Mid-high absorbers for side walls, ceiling and front wall – bass traps for back wall and corners.

 

They put 6 bass traps on the back wall. Maybe 4 would have been sufficient and they could have used some diffusers instead. The rendering shows no floor treatment (carpet) and in the video footage the floor isn't visible.

 

Unfortunately domestic rooms are often impossible to treat in the same way due to aesthetic reasons and ... acceptance issues coming from other members living under the same roof.

 

Fortunately today it's possible to find quite nice looking panels on the market, though.

 

I prefer the treated sound. It sounds "muffled" if compared to the empty room because the latter is like listening inside a tank (in comparison). 🙂 The difference is so noticeable that at first the treated room sounds almost like an anechoic chamber.

 

In the treated room you can crank up the volume if needed. In the untreated room, it'd be a mess. 

 

I have treated so far only partially my listening room with some Auralex panels (mid-high absorption and corner bass traps). I intend to complete hopefully soon the work with other mid-high absorption panels, corners and diffusers by Vicoustic and bass traps by GIK.

 

DIY solutions work too, of course. Curtains, carpets, pillows/cushions and furniture definitely can help to improve the sound.

 

Acoustic treatment is one the most ignored and neglected aspect of domestic listening. It should deserve way more attention.

 

[firedog]

I'd guess you could get good results with fewer panels: corner bass traps, 2-4 panels on the back wall, a panel on each side wall. Also, move the speakers even a short distance from the front wall.

That would flatten the curve enough enough that some judiciously applied DRC would result in great sound. 

[PYP]

A GIK diffuser (well, four) helped a mild compression of the highs in our room.  I placed them between the speakers, centered on the wall behind the speakers because they wouldn't look out of place.  The height was chosen by ear and some luck.  They can be painted to match your room.  Folks who visit think they are art.  All in all, the price was reasonable and well worth the investment and time/effort to spray paint them (not fun, but rewarding).  

[Confused]

I have to be honest here.  Doing something with room treatment has been on my "to do" list for far too long now.  My fault entirely, I guess I just like fiddling with electronics and similar, and sorting out room treatments seems too much like hard work and hassle.

 

This is why I liked the video so much.   You can very easily hear the difference and improvements right the way through the entire frequency range. 

 

The obvious effect is the "deadening" of the sound, or removal of the room echo if you like.  This I would expect, but what really struck me is some of the mid-range stuff, where to my ears the system in the treated room sounds like it has has a significant amount of distortion removed.  In some threads we discuss distortion levels of 0.0018% versus 0.00026% or whatever (which is all good fun), but this is on another level I think.  So in other words, this little video has probably done just enough to nudge me out of complacency and make the effort to do something.  

 

Last year I visited a hi-fi show.  Yes, a hi-fi show in 2020!  This was in February, just before the first UK lockdown.  GIK had a display stand there, and this for me was the highlight of the show.  Firstly, I had been browsing GIK's website, and I had happily picked out some of the styles and colours for products that I liked.  Then, when I could actually see the products for on display in real life, I realised that some of the stuff that looked great in photographs on line did not look so good in the flesh, and vice versa.  So I left with a completely different idea of what I might actually purchase.  I also spent a lot of time with one of the GIK guys, he was explaining about how a potential customer can send photographs of their room, REW measurements (he was particulary keen on REW measurements), details of what they might happily do or not do (such a corners are fine, but I will never touch the ceiling etc.  and they can then send you their recommendations.  Apparently their recommendations start with the easy to do but big benefit stuff, then work progressively through to the hard to do and limited benefit stuff.  So you can progressively add room treatments, and decide when to stop.   

 

This was just about one year ago now, and I have done nothing since.  Time to start progressing this one I think.

[PYP]

8 minutes ago, Confused said:

This was just about one year ago now, and I have done nothing since.  Time to start progressing this one I think.

With your great system, you will reap the rewards!  As you have heard yourself, room treatments do what equipment cannot.  

[Foggie]

Remember the vid is just one example and how it would translate to your room and dimensions isn't cut n dry.  It would a lot of broadband to kill a room and I think many times people think adding a few "panels" will deaden the room - not so.  Not at all.  You can still have a "live" sounding space, but until one hears a proper room, I think its easy to be "used to what one knows". 

 

It takes a massive amount just in trapping to even start getting a hold of the sub freq and rarely is that done in most domestic rooms.  The 6"-8" traps (straddled or better yet floor to ceiling ) can do a really good job, but depending on the issues of the room, sub freq are the hardest to tame/address correctly

 

Again room dims are critical in how a room responds overall (w/o any treatments).  If your able to treat your space with a good balance of broadband, diffusion and traps, it can do wonders compared to none. Proper setup of speakers and the like go without saying.

[MarkusBarkus]

@Confused I have added a lot of room management and it has helped the sound *a lot.*
 

I designed and built my room with an ear to adding hifi, but it is an odd room and I have to share it with Sweetie for Netflixian evenings.

 

Full disclosure: I have NOT measured my room "acoustically." I have added treatments slowly, listening as I went along.

 

I know, and others have been right to point out: measuring it will provide insight into issues, which I'm sure are there. 
 

Actually, I plan to order that Umik2 mic and load REW software to test.

 

When I started on the room, I did exhaustive reading and thinking. Based on some info, I should have just given up, as the room would never sound good. But it does!
 

I have many treatments throughout the room. Some are pressure based, sealed boxes; some are velocity based "traps."

 

Some are DIY and some commercial, including by GIK. I sent some room info to one of their guys, and it was OK, but not greatly helpful.

 

I should also note: nothing is being trapped, so it's an awkward word, but what we seem to use. Those low freq. waves aren't stopping for (almost) nothing. I just wanted to mix up their reflections and absorption rates. As noted previously, moving the chair and/or speakers has great potential.

 

For the real acoustic honchos here, feel free to yuk it up on my account, as I will post pics for your entertainment. 
 

The big take-away in my view is you can really add to the quality of your room sound with a few, or as many as you need, of these products. Sorry the pics are quick, cell camera items.

 

Looking back to listening position. Many would not choose a diffusor here, and say it is too close. 6-10 feet is more typical, but this works (about 3'). Mega-trap below. About 165 lbs.!
All three built from Acoustic Fields plans:

 

Looking front. All room corners are trapped. I have GIK diffusors up front, and pressure membrane DIY traps. That front sub is on a DIY platform too:

Side wall. GIK 3-D diffusors.
 

Behind wooden panel there are two inches of rigid fiberglass panels the entire length (panel is fir-ed out and sealed. I built the ceiling cloud too. Room is "short" and this helps a lot: 

The naughty side of the room can create an imbalance. If I want to get kooky with listening, I can slide these additional pieces into place from their hiding spot.

They look odd in place, but they serve to balance the sound a bit more, even without the mass of a wall.

 

Additionally, I chose to do more of a near-field sound field. About 8' out. It lacks a bit of expanse in the soundstage, but I listen to mostly jazz and small set music, not big band and full-orchestral pieces. They sound fine too, but lack the great image presence in the room. 

 

I have some rags under the speakers and the stand on the floor, awaiting some new stuff. Snow storm delays.

Honestly, the big take-away I would like to express is that room management makes a big difference, and that it is OK to experiment a bit. The plants you see are fake. I like the look, and they will scatter some high frequency "rays."
 

Of course, you could hire a pro, but where's the fun in that? Happy listening...

y

 

[PYP]

21 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

Of course, you could hire a pro, but where's the fun in that? Happy listening...

Given all that, your Sweetie is a keeper!

[MarkusBarkus]

8 minutes ago, PYP said:

Given all that, your Sweetie is a keeper!

Right? She rolled her eyes at first, but I don't think she even "sees" it anymore. This is downstairs. If I tried to pull this off upstairs, I'd be listening to an am/fm radio in a small apartment some where...

[shum3s]

When I built my dedicated room some distance from my house, and made my own treatment, it put the end to my bad case of up grading equipment.  It has been the most rewarding element in the pursuit of great sound. Compare to most people system, mine is quite modest, but the impact this room has on my musical enjoyment is beyond I ever dreamed of.  Just wanted to share and acknowledge that in my view the room has the greatest impact than any other component in the audio chain.  
    
  Thank you, Sam

[Confused]

On 2/18/2021 at 7:24 PM, MarkusBarkus said:

@Confused I have added a lot of room management and it has helped the sound *a lot.*
 

I designed and built my room with an ear to adding hifi, but it is an odd room and I have to share it with Sweetie for Netflixian evenings.

 

Full disclosure: I have NOT measured my room "acoustically." I have added treatments slowly, listening as I went along.

 

I know, and others have been right to point out: measuring it will provide insight into issues, which I'm sure are there. 
 

Actually, I plan to order that Umik2 mic and load REW software to test.

 

When I started on the room, I did exhaustive reading and thinking. Based on some info, I should have just given up, as the room would never sound good. But it does!
 

I have many treatments throughout the room. Some are pressure based, sealed boxes; some are velocity based "traps."

 

Some are DIY and some commercial, including by GIK. I sent some room info to one of their guys, and it was OK, but not greatly helpful.

 

I should also note: nothing is being trapped, so it's an awkward word, but what we seem to use. Those low freq. waves aren't stopping for (almost) nothing. I just wanted to mix up their reflections and absorption rates. As noted previously, moving the chair and/or speakers has great potential.

 

For the real acoustic honchos here, feel free to yuk it up on my account, as I will post pics for your entertainment. 
 

The big take-away in my view is you can really add to the quality of your room sound with a few, or as many as you need, of these products. Sorry the pics are quick, cell camera items.

 

Looking back to listening position. Many would not choose a diffusor here, and say it is too close. 6-10 feet is more typical, but this works (about 3'). Mega-trap below. About 165 lbs.!
All three built from Acoustic Fields plans:

 

Looking front. All room corners are trapped. I have GIK diffusors up front, and pressure membrane DIY traps. That front sub is on a DIY platform too:

Side wall. GIK 3-D diffusors.
 

Behind wooden panel there are two inches of rigid fiberglass panels the entire length (panel is fir-ed out and sealed. I built the ceiling cloud too. Room is "short" and this helps a lot: 

The naughty side of the room can create an imbalance. If I want to get kooky with listening, I can slide these additional pieces into place from their hiding spot.

They look odd in place, but they serve to balance the sound a bit more, even without the mass of a wall.

 

Additionally, I chose to do more of a near-field sound field. About 8' out. It lacks a bit of expanse in the soundstage, but I listen to mostly jazz and small set music, not big band and full-orchestral pieces. They sound fine too, but lack the great image presence in the room. 

 

I have some rags under the speakers and the stand on the floor, awaiting some new stuff. Snow storm delays.

Honestly, the big take-away I would like to express is that room management makes a big difference, and that it is OK to experiment a bit. The plants you see are fake. I like the look, and they will scatter some high frequency "rays."
 

Of course, you could hire a pro, but where's the fun in that? Happy listening...

y

 

Thanks for the pictures, if nothing else it reinforces my own issues with getting room treatment sorted out.  I look at the pictures, I should be thinking about room treatments, and then I end up thinking "oh look, some VU meters".  Yes, those strange little things that do nothing much at all for audio reproduction, why do I love them so?  

 

Anyway, I was interested in your comment that the advice from GIK was not that helpful.  The GIK guy I spoke to at the show I mentioned was incredibly helpful and knowledgeable.  As it happens, I recognised him from a hifi  in London show maybe 3 or 4 years ago.  At the show they has a seminar area, where they had someone doing some kind of talk or presentation each hour.  I attended a talk about room treatments and it was the same GIK guy who did the presentation, and it was a very good presentation, this guy knew his topic..  I guess if you send a manufacturer a lot of information for advice, there is a degree of luck as to who gets to respond, and how much time they have to spend on your particular query.  Which makes me think that when I get around to making the effort to compile REW measurements, room sketches, photographs etc. it might be a good idea to send it to maybe two or three companies.  I could then compare and contrast the responses, combined with a bit of my own research.  

 

Looking at my own room, I will have some challenges. the location of one door is not ideal, plus one side wall at "first reflection point" is a wall, but on the other side it is a window.  Yet there ae some "easy hits" I think.  For example, the corners of the room behind the speakers are just empty corners, dead space with literally nothing in them.  One step at a time, I'll get there eventually.

[MarkusBarkus]

4 hours ago, Confused said:

Anyway, I was interested in your comment that the advice from GIK was not that helpful. 

In all fairness to GIK, I think it's difficult to get too detailed via email and telephone. IMO, GIK was professional and the fella I spoke with was knowledgeable...it was just very basic, which is OK. After all, it was free. 
 

Although I *think* my room sounds good...or, music sounds good in my room, through my ears, made by the musicians that live in my gear...it really is up to me to test/measure. Thanks for the chat and good luck.

[PYP]

8 hours ago, shum3s said:

When I built my dedicated room some distance from my house, and made my own treatment, it put the end to my bad case of up grading equipment.  It has been the most rewarding element in the pursuit of great sound. Compare to most people system, mine is quite modest, but the impact this room has on my musical enjoyment is beyond I ever dreamed of.  Just wanted to share and acknowledge that in my view the room has the greatest impact than any other component in the audio chain.  
    
  Thank you, Sam

Looks great.  Did you place the treatments by ear or measurement or both?

[shum3s]

  In the beginning after the interior construction was done, I had a concrete floor with nothing on the walls and ceiling. I had previous read all that I could on room acoustics. I also looked at other professional rooms that were dedicated for two channel music. 
   It became clear to me that there are basic principles that all rooms needed to address for good sound. The first being speakers and listener position, to minimize lower frequencies peaks and suck outs; which is best determine by measurements. Second is bass trapping where ever walls and ceiling meet. Third was treating first and second reflection points. In my case I am a dipole guy, so I was attentive in how the treatment was going to be apply best for dipoles. My 4th principle was to apply judicious amount of diffusion. This was the most challenging, getting the right balance between absorption and diffusion. This was difficult to measure, I ended up relying on my hearing and other audiophile friends input.  
   I must say that once I eliminated the “slap echo” ( clapping hands test)  by applying bass traps, most of my low bass issues were eliminated.  From my experience, once the low frequencies are mostly prevented from ringing, the rest of the upper frequencies fall into place. The clarity, imaging and soundstage can do there thing, and that makes listening to music in your room an exciting experience. 
      Sam

[Confused]

Hear is a question for the room treatment experts.  I have been investigating options for my own room.  The corners behind my speakers are basically empty corners, so prime candidates for some kind of room treatment.  

 

I was thinking about the traditional style of corner bass traps, then I found these.  Does anyone have any idea how these DAAD type devices might perform in comparison to traditional corner traps?

 

http://www.acusticaapplicata.com/prodotti.php?lang=en

 

http://www.acusticaapplicata.com/volcano.php?lang=en

 

https://www.audioconsultants.co.uk/room-acoustics-treaments.html#Acustica-Applicata

[firedog]

They might be good. Some of the text sounds like marketing speak.

Hard to tell if they don't include testing results/measurements to back up their claims.

GIK and others actually do, so you know their devices do something.

Personally, GIK bass traps made a huge difference in my room.

[MarkusBarkus]

Very interesting. My initial thought was: Tube Traps Italiano. And, they kind of are, but they explain how they feel they have refined that design with new materials. 
 

I may try a version of their concept by wrapping one of my tubes with metallic window screening. Interesting.
 

They spend a lot of effort acknowledging Tube Traps, and politely stating their updated approach is better. Their analysis regarding CD sound reproduction vs. analog reads a little sketchy to me as the reason for a modern design, but that's not my area. 
 

Being on your side of the ocean, there may be an advantage cost-wise, vs. other US based products. 
 

These products may be a bit more frequency-specific, so if you don't know specifically what's going on in your room, you may not choose the optimum sized product, according to them. But that would be true of any such product.

 

But your top-level question, @Confused, would they work/better or worse, I think they would work, but I don't think anyone could say better/worse as there are a lot of caveats in play (your room, listening volume, etc.).

 

Same thing with the resonator product link. Some folks have put large Sono-tubes (building forms for concrete) along the walls, on the floor. Analogous to blowing over the top of a soda bottle. But at what frequency? A little random if just guessing.

 

Are you a DIY fella at all? If so, you could get a basic proof of concept with some two-inch rigid fiberglass board (or wool-rock--whatever is approved in UK), or even large pipe-insulation from a supplier. Wrap it in some open-weave material to keep little particles out of the air. Stick them behind your speakers and see what you see...or hear. The air-gap behind the trap is the important bit.
 

I have made a few tube-traps in my room. They work well. I actually made something with the lobe-structure, using four smaller diameter pieces of pipe insulation, and then wrapped the whole thing, put on bases, etc. 

 

Thank you for the interesting links. 

[Confused]

3 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

These products may be a bit more frequency-specific, so if you don't know specifically what's going on in your room, you may not choose the optimum sized product, according to them. But that would be true of any such product.

I know the key issues with my room, the bass peaks a little over 50Hz, and nulls at maybe 110kHz.  How that influences the choice between conventional bass trapping and tubes I am not sure.  Although I do know that absorption at 50Hz is not easy.

 

3 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

Are you a DIY fella at all?

Indeed I am, but with the current problem of not much time, so not planning to self build anything in the short term.

 

3 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

Being on your side of the ocean, there may be an advantage cost-wise, vs. other US based products. 

The UK distributer for the DaaD is actually not too far from where I live, which at least gives me the option to go and have a look.  maybe I could borrow one or two to try at home.  GIK manufacture in the UK also.

[ASRMichael]

On 2/21/2021 at 5:56 AM, shum3s said:

When I built my dedicated room some distance from my house, and made my own treatment, it put the end to my bad case of up grading equipment.  It has been the most rewarding element in the pursuit of great sound. Compare to most people system, mine is quite modest, but the impact this room has on my musical enjoyment is beyond I ever dreamed of.  Just wanted to share and acknowledge that in my view the room has the greatest impact than any other component in the audio chain.  
    
  Thank you, Sam

I think in terms of sound quality 60% of the sq possibly comes from the room. No matter how good the equipment is it will never sound good in a poor acoustic room. 
 

Nice room btw! 👍

[shum3s]

Thank you for the compliment! You and are definitely on the the same page.