Fatigue free listening

[mevdinc]

14 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Do you upsample redbook to DSD using software? 

I have tried both HQ Player and Audirvana to upsample to DSD but I let the DAC do it internally (DSDx2x4), as its hardware upsampling seems to be very good.

[Albrecht]

On 7/25/2020 at 12:57 AM, Rexp said:

Digititus, fatigue, glare, the feeling you just want to turn the music off after a while to give your ears a break. Now not everone suffers from this but its the biggest problem with digital playback for most folks. One way to alleviate the problem is to listen to lo-res, quite a few members prefer Spotify to Tidal/Qobuz for example. I've gone back to using the headphone out of my laptop rather than external DACs cos, although its lower res, it doesn't make my ears bleed. Any more solutions out there? 

IME, - playing music back on a multifunction computer is ALWAYS worse given the same performance level of gear. Hardware is still in or close to, - 90%. There's no free ride. Until really good (separate) digital file players, ( that dramatically improved), the big 3 elements of what made multi-function computers "not as good" as CDs, - we were stuck with something that wasn't designed and could not perform to a commensurate level.

Multi-functional computers are simply designed for many things OTHER than audio. Indeed, computer designers actually eschew (in their blind worship of MFCs) high performance audio. 

There are people out there who have been, and are, demonstrating this. They have really high performance transports, high performance DACs, and the ability to flip between CDs and digital file players. They have tried (and spent a lot of money) trying to make a multifunction computer, NOT a multifunction computer, and all the computers are either out of the music room and act as file servers, - or are on the junk pile. 

One of the best ways to get a handle on the process, - is to get/use a really great Universal Disc player with a digital input. You can easily and constantly conduct tests to clearly demonstrate how your digital file playback is performing.

[Albrecht]

On 7/26/2020 at 4:22 PM, sandyk said:

 Here's another tip

If you are using a Desktop PC which has a metal Drive Bay, ensure that the SSDs mounted there have their cases securely earthed with as low a resistance as possible to 0 volts/and IEC earth of the PSU.

 This can be done using a DMM on the mV scale with the PC powered up and measuring between the actual case of the SSD and 0 volts/ Earth of the PSU case. A.S. member one and a half (Gary) suggested using supplemental Star Earthing if need be to reduce this voltage to virtually zero. The result (as in my case too) was a marked reduction in distortion and a substantial improvement in soundstage with good recordings, and this also resulted in fresh rips of the same CDs sounding markedly better than the original rips.

 You should also use screened leads for the SSD power to the 4 pin Molex connector closest to the PSU itself if possible..

 In my case I also use +12V regulated down to an extremely low noise (<4uV) +5V dual supply PCB for improved isolation between my 2 internal SSDs and the rest of the PC.

 

IMO, FWIW. This is a great, and helpful, (and one rarely mentioned), post.

 

However, - I feel like a gotta ask, -- why spend all the money and labour trying to turn a multi-function computer into something that it is not.... and wasn't designed to be?

 

We have better, cheaper, things for that...

[sandyk]

4 hours ago, Albrecht said:

IMO, FWIW. This is a great, and helpful, (and one rarely mentioned), post.

 

However, - I feel like a gotta ask, -- why spend all the money and labour trying to turn a multi-function computer into something that it is not.... and wasn't designed to be?

 

We have better, cheaper, things for that...

 

 A multi function computer when  properly implemented is capable of outperforming most stand alone servers etc. especially when Subscription services are used where the quality of the material listened to will never be quite as good as when the information is directly extracted and saved to an electrically quiet PC or Server. The front end DOES matter, despite what some members here will insist.

I have spent a small  fraction of the money that the guys in Rajiv's thread are doing.

These days much of my listening is with headphones, although I can output from the PC to my main system when I wish to, which BTW is used even for watching TV. 

I also use my PC to download Music Videos from YouTube and  extract the hidden higher quality Video and Audio streams to create markedly better looking and sounding Videos that I can play on my main system, as well as capture some of the great music performances from USA late night TV when available as uploaded .ts streams.

Not everybody has a separate listening room available , and I am also on a pension these days. 

In fact, if the Covid 19 virus keeps going much longer, many people won't be able to afford to do what so many members of this forum are currently doing.

[Albrecht]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 A multi function computer when  properly implemented is capable of outperforming most stand alone servers etc. especially when Subscription services are used where the quality of the material listened to will never be quite as good as when the information is directly extracted and saved to an electrically quiet PC or Server. The front end DOES matter, despite what some members here will insist.

I have spent a small  fraction of the money that the guys in Rajiv's thread are doing.

These days much of my listening is with headphones, although I can output from the PC to my main system when I wish to, which BTW is used even for watching TV. 

I also use my PC to download Music Videos from YouTube and  extract the hidden higher quality Video and Audio streams to create markedly better looking and sounding Videos that I can play on my main system, as well as capture some of the great music performances from USA late night TV when available as uploaded .ts streams.

Not everybody has a separate listening room available , and I am also on a pension these days. 

In fact, if the Covid 19 virus keeps going much longer, many people won't be able to afford to do what so many members of this forum are currently doing.

Hi,

Just to be clear, - I am not talking about File Servers that host something like but file players that will sit on the audio rack. 

Even a $125 razberri Pi will outperform the most optimized MACMini or junky Dell desktop as either a combo-server-player or as an (exclusively) digital file player. With all the network optimizations that we've all learned about here, - there's never a benefit to having a "server" polluting an audio system with noise. 

Lastly, - as I stated, - the "analog" portion of the system is just as critical as it ever was. No optimized digital file playback component(s) is going to "improve" any NAD/NHT based system.....

[tapatrick]

On 7/26/2020 at 12:33 PM, Norton said:

If you are looking for fatigue-free digital listening, would be worthwhile you checking out the EC designs thread.  

+1

- if the problem is not just the sensitivity of your own ears then the just released reasonably priced EC products are worth checking out as they are a revelation in fatigue free listening. I had almost given up that the residual signature of digital playback systems, even if they are sounding amazing in most areas, could be overcome.

 

The EC U192ETL and DA96ETF combination gives full streaming capability with superb easeful and relaxed listening (even difficult recordings are improved but excellent recordings are a joy. These products seem to remove the need for finding the perfect source with all the cost implications. Only available in the EU at present though and I'm not associated the EC designs except as a happy customer.

 

https://www.ecdesigns.nl/en/blog/da96etf

[Blackmorec]

11 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 A multi function computer when  properly implemented is capable of outperforming most stand alone servers etc. especially when Subscription services are used where the quality of the material listened to will never be quite as good as when the information is directly extracted and saved to an electrically quiet PC or Server. The front end DOES matter, despite what some members here will insist.

I have spent a small  fraction of the money that the guys in Rajiv's thread are doing.

These days much of my listening is with headphones, although I can output from the PC to my main system when I wish to, which BTW is used even for watching TV. 

I also use my PC to download Music Videos from YouTube and  extract the hidden higher quality Video and Audio streams to create markedly better looking and sounding Videos that I can play on my main system, as well as capture some of the great music performances from USA late night TV when available as uploaded .ts streams.

Not everybody has a separate listening room available , and I am also on a pension these days. 

In fact, if the Covid 19 virus keeps going much longer, many people won't be able to afford to do what so many members of this forum are currently doing.

Hey Sandy,

Have I got this right? You are claiming that a standard PC, with its cheap-as-chips power supply, bloated operating system, non-optimised (for audio) CPU and EFI radiation, with all sorts of tasks running in background plus cooling fans is better that a dedicated, optimised, purpose built (for audio) server with dedicated, multi-rail, low noise linear power supplies, vibration control, EMI mitigation measures, optimised CPU utilisation, optimised OS and BIOS, high accuracy, temperature stabilised oscillators and passive cooling? Surely I’m mistaken, right? 

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, Blackmorec said:

Hey Sandy,

.Surely I’m mistaken, right? 

 

My PC is quite removed from typical, as it uses dual isolated, <4uV low noise +12V to +5V JLH PSU add-ons with a simulated capacitance of around 2 FARAD to power both internal SSDs , both of which are mounted in a metal drive bay with their cases also having a very low measured resistance to the main 0 volts supply.. It also uses a <4uV noise  +12V and +5V JLH PSU add-on for powering the LG GGW  H20L BR writer for superior sounding and BIT Perfect, (not that this means much 😋) CD rips .

As it doesn't use additional  external Linear PSUs and has all 0 volts (Earth) going back to a common  "Earth" point, there are no minor earth loops either, and the JLHs for the BR writer being a variety of Shunt Regulator also further improve the noise of the internal +12V and +5V rails as they actively cancel incoming ripple/noise from the PSU.

Neither do I need to use crappy USB like many need to use with more expense for Opto Regens and additional low noise Linear PSUs, as it has an internal Asus Xonar D2X soundcard which further improves Coax SPDIF Out into a highly modified Musical Fidelity X-DAC V3 which has an isolated transformer Coax Input, and is also powered via a Linear + and -15.5V supply which also has <4uV noise from a dual JLH PSU add-on as well  .  This then goes into a DIY Class A Headphone amplifier which is only -3dB at 1.5MHZ and has a distortion considerably less than 0006% and is fully DC coupled .with dual + and -20V supply rails (<4uV noise also) from 2 external 18-0-18VAC toroidal transformers which results in way better than normal channel separation

 

I already have 2  12VDC thermistor controlled fan speed controllers to replace motherboard PWM control but will need to obtain 2  x 2 wire fans as the 4 pin fans can not be powered directly by DC due to typically using internal LM324 I.C .s  and BTW, all non essential processes are minimised.

Oh, I also use quite a bit of 3M 2552 anti vibration adhesive aluminium tape on panels etc and have done so for years

 

 Seeing that your setup  MUST be so much better , perhaps you can help John Dyson for a while in his Dolby -A decoder project where a few of us have been routinely able to hear differences of a little over 0.1dB with his corrected CD rips  ? 

[Rexp]

So much money has been wasted on fatigue inducing $100k systems like this one: The digital glare comes through loud and clear even via youtube:

 

 

[fas42]

1 hour ago, Rexp said:

So much money has been wasted on fatigue inducing $100k systems like this one: The digital glare comes through loud and clear even via youtube:

 

 

 

But it's so close ... 😉

 

Yes, the "digital edge" is there - but it's at the point where fine tuning will "clear the cobwebs". This is the region where absolute attention to detail is necessary, to get the SQ over the line - just buying more stuff is almost certainly guaranteed not to sort things out ... it needs someone to meticulously check every area of the chain - once the issues which are obviously still remaining are cleared, then the SQ should snap nicely into place - and all will be good ... 🙂.

[Allan F]

15 hours ago, fas42 said:

it needs someone to meticulously check every area of the chain - once the issues which are obviously still remaining are cleared, then the SQ should snap nicely into place

 

 Another pablum post completely lacking in any specifics that would be informative.

[fas42]

5 hours ago, Allan F said:

 

 Another pablum post completely lacking in any specifics that would be informative.

 

And another post which demonstrates how incapable most are at understanding what's involved - you're troubleshooting a complex system which is not working correctly ... and you need to try a whole sequence of experiments to isolate where the issue is. It might suit the ego of some to toss off a bunch of things that happened to work for them, that suited their particular setup; but I don't work that way - do you want a doctor that says, it could be a couple of dozen things wrong with you; okay, here's 24 prescriptions to take away - try them one after another until one does something useful for you, and doesn't give you terrible side effects - and here's my bill for 24 consultations?

[Rexp]

6 hours ago, Allan F said:

 

 Another pablum post completely lacking in any specifics that would be informative.

Yes, a typical nonsense post but at least he replied. Most folks dismiss youtube but one thing you can hear is digital distortion caused by source components like in these two videos, same system/track, different source:

 

 

[kumakuma]

6 hours ago, Allan F said:

 

 Another pablum post completely lacking in any specifics that would be informative.

 

Once I realized that Frank's posts are purely for his own self-gratification, I lost the urge to lend him a helping hand. 👺

[fas42]

1 minute ago, kumakuma said:

 

Once I realized that Frank's posts are purely for his own self-gratification, I lost the urge to lend him a helping hand. 👺

 

Ahh, self-gratification - I see the magic sauce is in sight, 🤪 - I mistakenly thought that pointing out that the obsession with assigning all problems as being caused by "terrible recordings!" is not an answer, as a first step, might be helpful ... 🤩.

 

A helping hand? ... pointing out the error of my ways, perhaps??

[fas42]

35 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Yes, a typical nonsense post but at least he replied. Most folks dismiss youtube but one thing you can hear is digital distortion caused by source components like in these two videos, same system/track, different source:

 

 

 

The obvious distortion is not "caused by source components", but by a weakness in the playback chain ... somewhere. Digital replay is extremely susceptible to this unpleasantness - but it may be hard, annoyingly so, to track down the precise culprit ... which is why pronouncing some glib 'solution', by someone like me, will be of close to zero value - in this particular situation.

 

The basic underlying problem is that there is electrical interference in, generally, the D/A area - enough to do the obvious damage. The hard bit is tracking down the source of that interference - it can be any of the items I've mentioned over and over again ... unless one goes in and checks out each possibility, one by one, then you're just shooting blind if you change something, in the hope that it fixes the issue.

[Allan F]

2 hours ago, kumakuma said:

Once I realized that Frank's posts are purely for his own self-gratification, I lost the urge to lend him a helping hand. 👺

 

No, I would think that you definitely would not want to lend a hand to someone engaged in self-gratification. 🙂

[fas42]

Of course, the only long term solution is for manufacturers to wake up to the fact that they need to do better engineering of their products. But while people keep chasing bling, and the status of certain brands, there is little motivation to "do it better" ... 😉.

 

So, either wait till enough designers "geddit"; or buy expensive gear and add-ons that had enough thrown at them to get them over the hurdle; or, do some personal 'fixes' - the latter is enough to gratify me, 😀.

[PYP]

15 minutes ago, fas42 said:

So, either wait till enough designers "geddit"; or buy expensive gear and add-ons that had enough thrown at them to get them over the hurdle; or, do some personal 'fixes' - the latter is enough to gratify me, 😀.

 

Which designers are you thinking about who don't design well?  

 

I've certainly been to high-end stores that don't know how to setup a system and/or use equipment/speakers that aren't broken in, but from my own experience, there is a lot of very good gear at many different price points and excellent sound quality is not hard to come by.  Just looking at the setups of the folks on these threads, who are very happy with the sound, tells us there are many ways to get great sound and that it happens often.  

 

To generalize from a few videos played back on a computer doesn't seem a realistic view of the current state of playback.   

[Rexp]

12 minutes ago, PYP said:

 

Which designers are you thinking about who don't design well?  

 

I've certainly been to high-end stores that don't know how to setup a system and/or use equipment/speakers that aren't broken in, but from my own experience, there is a lot of very good gear at many different price points and excellent sound quality is not hard to come by.  Just looking at the setups of the folks on these threads, who are very happy with the sound, tells us there are many ways to get great sound and that it happens often.  

 

To generalize from a few videos played back on a computer doesn't seem a realistic view of the current state of playback.   

I posted the videos because one might be able to hear whether a system sounds fatiguing (thread topic) or not. Which video sounds fatiguing to you? 

[fas42]

1 hour ago, PYP said:

 

Which designers are you thinking about who don't design well?  

 

The majority of the designs don't do enough to prevent mains noise, and interactions between components degrading SQ - no matter how expensive they are. Which is why the standard tweak of adding mains conditioning, or filtering; or even just changing the power cord, for pete's sake! - makes a difference. There's a reason for the huge, after market upgrade, 'snake oil' industry ... because it's needed, 🙂.

 

Quote

 

I've certainly been to high-end stores that don't know how to setup a system and/or use equipment/speakers that aren't broken in, but from my own experience, there is a lot of very good gear at many different price points and excellent sound quality is not hard to come by.  Just looking at the setups of the folks on these threads, who are very happy with the sound, tells us there are many ways to get great sound and that it happens often.  

 

These days it's much easier - twenty years ago, it was a desert. Things had to progress - but the last audio show I went to told me how far we still had to go ... awful sound abounded - completely unnecessary.

 

Quote

 

To generalize from a few videos played back on a computer doesn't seem a realistic view of the current state of playback.   

 

You can hear what the rig is getting wrong - no matter how brilliantly it may be on some selected recordings, if a very expensive setup makes a mess of some recording enough to make it obvious over YT say - then it has issues.

[PYP]

1 hour ago, Rexp said:

I posted the videos because one might be able to hear whether a system sounds fatiguing (thread topic) or not. Which video sounds fatiguing to you? 

 

Well, not being familiar with the music, nor the room, nor the recording setup, I'm not sure what I'm hearing.  I do know that the speakers on my iMac aren't great.  Personally, I'd only be comfortable rendering a judgement if I heard the system live and with music I know well.  

[PYP]

2 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

The majority of the designs don't do enough to prevent mains noise, and interactions between components degrading SQ - no matter how expensive they are. Which is why the standard tweak of adding mains conditioning, or filtering; or even just changing the power cord, for pete's sake! - makes a difference. There's a reason for the huge, after market upgrade, 'snake oil' industry ... because it's needed, 🙂.

 

 

These days it's much easier - twenty years ago, it was a desert. Things had to progress - but the last audio show I went to told me how far we still had to go ... awful sound abounded - completely unnecessary.

 

 

You can hear what the rig is getting wrong - no matter how brilliantly it may be on some selected recordings, if a very expensive setup makes a mess of some recording enough to make it obvious over YT say - then it has issues.

 

I think my reply above to @Rexp applies to what you wrote.  I admit to being uncomfortable with broad generalizations regarding anyone who dedicates themselves over decades to something like audio design.   Many are musicians and/or have studied electronics/materials/physics, etc.  I would want to hear their product in my home before judging their work.  

[fas42]

I listened to a couple of videos posted by that chap, whose video is the first posted by @Rexp above. This is one I found that checks the boxes, which is in sharp contrast to some of the others - so, it's not his recording device, room, etc, etc ... when it sounds, "off".

 

 

 

[Rexp]

55 minutes ago, PYP said:

 

Well, not being familiar with the music, nor the room, nor the recording setup, I'm not sure what I'm hearing.  I do know that the speakers on my iMac aren't great.  Personally, I'd only be comfortable rendering a judgement if I heard the system live and with music I know well.  

Fair enough, I wouldn't want to judge audio on iMac speakers either.