Effectiveness of Short Run of Fiber Optic cable.

[asindc]

Hello All,

 

I’m considering re-configuring my streaming setup with the possible use of fiber optic cable.  I just bought an Antipodes CX that I will receive next week.  I had originally considered making a long run of FO cable to replace my current long run (about 20 ft.) of generic originally installed 16-yr-old CAT5 cable from switch near router to wall plate in listening room.  Unfortunately, making that FO run is just simply not practical, if possible at all.  Here is my current setup:

 

Verizon Fios router (also serves as wifi for iPad and iPhone)—CAT5—>Netgear switch GS-116 (all ethernet connected devices in home are plugged into this, including Mac Mini as Roon Server)—CAT5 to listening room—>Wall Plate—WW Starlight 8 Ethernet—>EtherRegen (stock)—>WW Plat. Starlight Ethernet—>Cary DMS-600 Streamer/DAC.

 

 

Since I cannot do the long run of FO to the listening room, I’m thinking of doing a short run from an FMC (placed directly after Fios router) to a dedicated switch placed directly after FMC.  The switch would then convert the FO back to Ethernet for the long run to the listening room.  It would look something like this (changes in bold😞

 

Verizon Fios router (powered by iFi iPower LPS)—WW or Shunyata Ethernet—>FMC—>1m (or whatever length needed) FO Cable—>Buffalo BS-GS2008 (powered by Keces P3)—>WW or Shunyata Ethernet—>Buffalo BS-GS2008 (powered by Keces P3)—>CAT5 to listening room—>Wall Plate—WW Starlight 8 Ethernet—>EtherRegen (powered by Paul Hynes SR5T)—>WW Plat. Starlight Ethernet—>Antipodes CX (Roon Server)—WW Plat. Starlight Ethernet—->Cary DMS-600 Streamer/DAC.  The non-audio ethernet devices would be served via a separate ethernet cable run from the Fios router to the Netgear switch.  The Netgear switch and all other devices in house with SMPS will get Jemeco LPS.

 

 

So my question is: Would it be worthwhile to run an FMC—>1m (or however how long) FO cable from the router into a pair of switches (or just one switch) just to convert it back to ethernet for a 20ft+ run to the listening room?  The ideal would be to isolate the audio stream from the router and everything connected to the other ethernet run from the router, but I don’t know if this would do the trick.

Any other constructive suggestions for the proposed setup are welcome as well.

.

 

[ericuco]

Have you considered doing a WiFi connection between router and music room?

 

Perhaps, Router WiFi > WiFi endpoint > Ethernet > Sonore opticalModule (FMC) > fiber > EtherREGEN (switch) > Ethernet > Antipodes

This would isolate your music room. If you are streaming from Internet or pulling music files from a NAS located elsewhere on your network then you need to pull data across the WiFi which might or might not be an issue.

 

My music files are on a NAS in another part of my network and have no problems pulling files across WiFi. 

[asindc]

Thanks for the reply.  I have tried WiFi but I get too many dropouts, even though my router is in the utility room next to the listening room.  In fact, I use a WiFi extender elsewhere in the house because of dropouts.  I am not using a NAS, and I plan to store local files directly on the Antipodes.

[ericuco]

Personally, I would get the WiFi system in better shape if you are having dropout in rooms next to each other. I use Google WiFi (now replaced by Nest WiFi) and can pull HD TV material and my music files through the same WiFi access point and rarely, if ever, have a dropout and that is going from one floor of my house to another floor.
 

There are other WiFi mesh systems like Ubiquiti AmpliFi Instant and eero. 
 

In general you want place the most emphasis near the end of the chain, so near your music system. You don’t want to clean up the signal then run the signal though the CAT5 run where it can pick up noise.

 

To that end, you could (if no WiFi):

 

1) Wall plate > Ethernet > FMC or opticModule > fiber > FMC or opticalModule > Ethernet > Antipodes

2) Wall plate> Ethernet > EtherREGEN > Ethernet > Antipodes

I have two TP-Link MC220L units with Jameco LPS as well as matching SFP modules that I no longer use and would be willing to sell cheaply. You would need to buy a fiber optic cable.

 

[asindc]

Of the two non-WiFi options you propose—

 

“1) Wall plate > Ethernet > FMC or opticModule > fiber > FMC or opticalModule > Ethernet > Antipodes

2) Wall plate> Ethernet > EtherREGEN > Ethernet > Antipodes”

 

—my proposed new setup would match #2.  I wouldn’t do #1 since I already have the etherRegen.  Given the long run of generic CAT5 to the Wall Plate, what I am trying to do is eliminate as much noise from the chain before the signal is sent along that long run.  That is why I thought doing a FO run, short or long, to the switches near the router might be effective, in addition to what I have been considering (and what you propose) in #2.

[ericuco]

If you go with option 2, then perhaps

 

Wall plate > Ethernet > FMC or opticalModule > fiber > EtherREGEN > Ethernet >Antipodes
 

At that point, the fiber would help remove noise from the CAT5. One possible stumbling block is that CAT5 is only rated to 100Mbps from what I understand. No chance upgrading to CAT6?

Good luck.
 

 

[asindc]

Thanks again for the replies.  

 

Making a run of cable to replace the current CAT5 is not practical, otherwise, I would just run FO from the router position.  Does that short run of FO in your most recent proposal above make a difference at that point?  Does it matter how long the FO run is at that point?

[Crwilli57]

The input I have received is use a minimum of 15’ of Fiber Cable.    I don’t know why but perhaps it is to insure the ‘light’ is not too bright.  

[MarkusBarkus]

Hey asindc, for what it's worth, I did what you propose--to make a short isolation "break" with 1m fiber optic cable, and I thought it sounded very good.

 

I had a 35' ethernet run, unshielded BTW, from the IT/whiskey closet to the audio area in the basement. 
 

Caveats: The ethernet cable was Cat6 *and* a very nice cryo-ed cable. I used two 10Gtek FMCs and SFPs. 
 

Clearly, we have system differences, but it did add some clarity (remove some noise?) from my run.
 

I thought it was a reasonably cheap "proof of concept" for adding fiber. Based on that success, I just a few days ago added a Sonore OM. Sounds great. 

 

 

[asindc]

2 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

Hey asindc, for what it's worth, I did what you propose--to make a short isolation "break" with 1m fiber optic cable, and I thought it sounded very good.

 

I had a 35' ethernet run, unshielded BTW, from the IT/whiskey closet to the audio area in the basement. 
 

Caveats: The ethernet cable was Cat6 *and* a very nice cryo-ed cable. I used two 10Gtek FMCs and SFPs. 
 

Clearly, we have system differences, but it did add some clarity (remove some noise?) from my run.
 

I thought it was a reasonably cheap "proof of concept" for adding fiber. Based on that success, I just a few days ago added a Sonore OM. Sounds great. 

 

 

 

Thanks, that is quite helpful.  Please let us know how the opticalModule settles in.

[ericuco]

As long as you stick with SX (short range) Multimode SFP modules, you should not have issues with a short (1M) cable. I run a 1M cable from my 10GB NIC to my 10GB switch without any issues.  I have used different length cables up to 15M and can’t say I heard a difference. That said, fiber cable is cheap.

 

Also, highly recommend opticalModule. It was an improvement over a TP-Link FMC. My opticalRendu essentially has a oM built-in.

[davide256]

My 10 cents... Worry about switch quality not fiber vs CAT6. A refurbished Cisco catalyst is cheap for where to home your audio gear..

[MarkusBarkus]

asindc, FYI I am also using two daisy-chained Cisco switches in the network here. 
 

I'm sure some would differ in approach, but I placed the optical isolation segment after the Cisco kids. I split off the TV and Sweetie's computer from a Netgear Nigthawk router before the switches:

Modem/Router/Cisco/Cisco/FMC/FO cable/FMC=>ethernet run to etherReGen => Aurender ACS10. 
 

This was all copper, except for the 1meter MM fiber segment. 
 

Unlike your location, although a PITA, I could run the Cat6, so I also pulled a multimode fiber cable, knowing how satisfaction usually evolves into "what if" given enough time. 
 

Although I recently swapped the inexpensive 10Gtek devices for the Sonore OM with fiber for the run, into the eRG, etc. It sounds quite good. Very detailed. 
 

I found no issues with the 1M length in the multimode version. I have no allegiance to any of the companies making FMCs and SFPs, although I have followed the comments here.
 

I selected the 10Gteks because there was a bundled set on Bezos-zon which someone (Alex C?) had noted to a reader looking to try fiber. 

 

After a bit more listening, I plan to add the aforementioned fiber segment back into the network, perhaps between the ISP device and my router.
 

FWIW: I also tried fiber directly out of the Ciscos, with two new SFPs identified as Cisco Friendly, but no-dice. 
 

From what I read here and elsewhere, the Ciscos can be a bit finicky--at least to folks who don't have good network kung-fu--so I just parked that concept; I don't want to get funky-deep into the config world. Good luck.

[asindc]

2 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

asindc, FYI I am also using two daisy-chained Cisco switches in the network here. 
 

I'm sure some would differ in approach, but I placed the optical isolation segment after the Cisco kids. I split off the TV and Sweetie's computer from a Netgear Nigthawk router before the switches:

Modem/Router/Cisco/Cisco/FMC/FO cable/FMC=>ethernet run to etherReGen => Aurender ACS10. 
 

This was all copper, except for the 1meter MM fiber segment. 
 

Unlike your location, although a PITA, I could run the Cat6, so I also pulled a multimode fiber cable, knowing how satisfaction usually evolves into "what if" given enough time. 
 

Although I recently swapped the inexpensive 10Gtek devices for the Sonore OM with fiber for the run, into the eRG, etc. It sounds quite good. Very detailed. 
 

I found no issues with the 1M length in the multimode version. I have no allegiance to any of the companies making FMCs and SFPs, although I have followed the comments here.
 

I selected the 10Gteks because there was a bundled set on Bezos-zon which someone (Alex C?) had noted to a reader looking to try fiber. 

 

After a bit more listening, I plan to add the aforementioned fiber segment back into the network, perhaps between the ISP device and my router.
 

FWIW: I also tried fiber directly out of the Ciscos, with two new SFPs identified as Cisco Friendly, but no-dice. 
 

From what I read here and elsewhere, the Ciscos can be a bit finicky--at least to folks who don't have good network kung-fu--so I just parked that concept; I don't want to get funky-deep into the config world. Good luck.

 

Thanks, this is very helpful.  Much appreciated. 

[asindc]

On 7/23/2020 at 7:52 AM, MarkusBarkus said:

asindc, FYI I am also using two daisy-chained Cisco switches in the network here. 
 

I'm sure some would differ in approach, but I placed the optical isolation segment after the Cisco kids. I split off the TV and Sweetie's computer from a Netgear Nigthawk router before the switches:

Modem/Router/Cisco/Cisco/FMC/FO cable/FMC=>ethernet run to etherReGen => Aurender ACS10. 
 

This was all copper, except for the 1meter MM fiber segment. 
 

Unlike your location, although a PITA, I could run the Cat6, so I also pulled a multimode fiber cable, knowing how satisfaction usually evolves into "what if" given enough time. 
 

Although I recently swapped the inexpensive 10Gtek devices for the Sonore OM with fiber for the run, into the eRG, etc. It sounds quite good. Very detailed. 
 

I found no issues with the 1M length in the multimode version. I have no allegiance to any of the companies making FMCs and SFPs, although I have followed the comments here.
 

I selected the 10Gteks because there was a bundled set on Bezos-zon which someone (Alex C?) had noted to a reader looking to try fiber. 

 

After a bit more listening, I plan to add the aforementioned fiber segment back into the network, perhaps between the ISP device and my router.
 

FWIW: I also tried fiber directly out of the Ciscos, with two new SFPs identified as Cisco Friendly, but no-dice. 
 

From what I read here and elsewhere, the Ciscos can be a bit finicky--at least to folks who don't have good network kung-fu--so I just parked that concept; I don't want to get funky-deep into the config world. Good luck.

 

Question about your CAT6 run: What specific brand cable did you use?  Why CAT6 instead of CAT7 or CAT8?

[ericuco]

Blue Jean Cables has good decent priced Ethernet cables that you order to length and color. They hand make each cable and test it before shipping out. Good shipping as well, usually 2-3 days.

 

If you want to replace your CAT5 cable, CAT6 would probably work best. CAT6A cable is considerably thicker and less flexible than CAT6.

[MarkusBarkus]

...second Eric's comments re: Blue Jean Cable. Also, it occurred to me *most* of the network ethernet is actually Cat 6a. Agree with Eric on flexibility as well. No issue in my set-up, but could need "management" in some.

 

I also have a few of the Cable Matters Cat8s which get good reviews here, but frankly, I need to consider and educate myself a bit more re: ground related concerns with fully shielded cables.

[MarkusBarkus]

asindc, I think my reply to you was incomplete, re: why Cat6a over others.
 

While my lack of specific knowledge on each device (my own devices!) and their reaction to fully shielded cables was a concern to me, it is also the case that members here that I regard as knowledgeable seem to be using and recommending Cat6(a) cable, with a "floating" shield. 
 

I plan to perform shield surgery on a couple of Cat8s to disconnect one side of the shield to test.

 

[plissken]

On 7/22/2020 at 7:26 PM, Crwilli57 said:

The input I have received is use a minimum of 15’ of Fiber Cable.    I don’t know why but perhaps it is to insure the ‘light’ is not too bright.  

 

With MM and 10Km SM cabling you don't need a minimum. If you are using 40Km or stronger optics then you need attenuators to pad the levels with.

 

I'm putting in 480 1310nm MM LR transceivers in a 100 closet campus in the next three months. Even for ISL we are using 10Km modules with 2 meter patch.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

has anyone found an optical USB cable that is not of a 'hybrid' design using a copper conductor to supply power?

[Confused]

My situation is similar to that of @asindc

 

In my case I have the router, then about 10m of Cat 5 which is actually cunning installed from one end of the room to the other, running underfloor for the most part.  One day I will need to redecorate and replace the carpet etc., at this time it would be relatively easy to replace the cat 5, but for the medium term I am stuck with it.

 

So, in my system it is router > Cat 5 > 6 port Ethernet switch > EtherRegen > sMS200ultra Neo.  As a point to note, the 6 point Ethernet switch is necessary, as this feeds various bits of AV kit at the same end of the room.

 

I quite like the idea of replacing the 6 port switch for a similar item with an SFP port, this would then have a short run of fiber to the EtherRegen.  This would be relatively cheap to do, and would actually be no more complex that the system I have now.

 

Does anyone see an issue with this scheme, or have any alternative ideas as to how it could be done?  Reading the posts above it would seem that I need "SX" SFP modules? (the run from the 6 port switch to the EtherRegen would be very short)  

 

Reading the wider forum, I see that using long range SFP modules with attenuators seems popular.  To be honest, this upsets my purist sensibilities at little, so for me I would want to at least start with the correct and sensible spec kit, then maybe experiment later.  (or maybe not)

 

Maybe it would be better to keep my existing 6 port switch and get a dedicated fiber transceiver, or even something like the Sonore Optical module?  

 

I do like the idea of having a switch with an SFP port - this gives me the electrical isolation of fiber without additional boxes of complexity.  (I have enough of that already)  I am open to ideas or suggestions though.

 

Another route could be to abandon the sMS200ultra, replace with an opticalRenu, and run this via fiber to the EtherRegen?

[ericuco]

6 hours ago, Confused said:

 

Maybe it would be better to keep my existing 6 port switch and get a dedicated fiber transceiver, or even something like the Sonore Optical module?  

 

I do like the idea of having a switch with an SFP port - this gives me the electrical isolation of fiber without additional boxes of complexity.  (I have enough of that already)  I am open to ideas or suggestions though.

 

Another route could be to abandon the sMS200ultra, replace with an opticalRenu, and run this via fiber to the EtherRegen?

If you want to get a switch with SFP port, Mikrotik makes several inexpensive ones that are fanless and decent quality.

 

That said, the Sonore opticalModule is terrific but means yet another power supply and bit more money.
 

The opticalRendu is even a bigger step up - has what is essentially a built in opticalModule. Really happy with mine - top quality endpoint with fiber connection.

[NYCEnglish]

The opticalRendu is good but I don't think it has a built-in opticalModule or equivalent - don't you still need an opticalModule to convert to optical in order for the opticalRendu to work?

[ericuco]

11 minutes ago, NYCEnglish said:

The opticalRendu is good but I don't think it has a built-in opticalModule or equivalent - don't you still need an opticalModule to convert to optical in order for the opticalRendu to work?

Per email from Small Green Computer “... the opticalRendu is the opticalModule + ultraRendu.”
 

You usually need some device to convert from Ethernet to Fiber.  That device can be a FMC (e.g. opticalModule, TP-Link MC220L) or a switch with both SFP and Ethernet ports (e.g. EtherREGEN, lots of Mikrotik switches).

[asindc]

For the sake of simplicity, here is a diagram of my current setup:

 

 

1) The Antipodes CX will replace the Mac Mini.

     a) The CX will be installed either on the A side of the EtherREGEN or on B side of eR between eR and DMS-600.

2) A Paul Hynes SR5T will replace the stock PS on the EtherREGEN.

 

Proposed changes- Plan A

 

A) Add fiber optic run from utility room (where router is located) to music room.

B) Add oM between router and FO cable.

    (i) Replace stock PS with Farad Super3 LPS.

C) Replace stock PS on Verizon Fios router with HDPlex LPS.

 

Proposed changes-Plan B

A) Add oM between ethernet cable from wall plate and eR.

    (i) Replace stock PS with Farad Super3 LPS;

                               or

       Add 2nd rail to the SR5T.

B) Add FO cable between oM and eR.

 

Proposed changes-Plan B, Part 2

C) Add 2 Buffalo BS-GS2008 switches in series between ethernet cable from router and ethernet cable running to music room.

     (i) Replace stock PSs with dual-rail Keces P3 LPS.

 

So far, the consensus of the advice I have received is that I should put the FO cable as close to the DAC as possible.  I’m going to get some quotes from professional installers on running the FO to the music room.  If it is feasible, I’ll have the installer run CAT6 to the same location.

 

I’d like to hear thoughts on adding the two Buffalo switches in series vs. Plan A, just in case.

 

Please excuse the double posting of the diagram.  I can’t figure out how to delete the 2nd posting.