Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[JohnSwenson]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

We definitely need fiber optic clock signals in the future. If Uptone, (Sonore), and AfterDark built this interface into products, we solved this isolation issues and need of several power supplies. 
 

@Superdad

Isn't such an interface quite straight forward, as long as the physical interface is chosen ?

What’s the drawback, if any ?

Every time you go through an active interface of any type (elctrical to optical, optical to electrical, single ended to differential etc) you add extra phase noise. The clock paper goes into a fair amount of detail on this.

 

With an optical transmission media you have conversions on each end. Those conversions have to be VERY good in order for the final result to be worth it. There may not be any advantage to going with a REALLY low phase noise clock if the phase noise added by the conversions is larger than what the clock has to begin with.

 

The best existing technology we have now is SFP+ modules, they are  very good, but I'm not sure how good they are compared to a really low phase noise clock.

 

As to getting accepted in the marketplace that is kind of a chicken an egg thing. Nobody is currently using SFP modules for clocks, so there are no external clock boxes that use it, and no inputs on anything that use it.

 

If it is going to happen it would take either us doing both ends or working with some external company to do a clock with this interface. I would have to actually build some systems and test them to find out whether it even makes sense.

 

The optical has the advantage of galvanic isolation, but disadvantage of active conversions. My preference is for a dedicated differential system with custom made differential cables and connectors. Belden actually makes a series of cables and connectors that would work well for this, but they are not cheap! It would probably wind up being $700 to $1000 for a short cable, but you guys seem to be willing to pay that much so it might be worthwhile to look into that someday, NOT right now!

 

John S.

[JohnSwenson]

8 hours ago, fsmithjack said:

Ok guys/gals - PLEASE HELP ... 

 

My After Dark Queen Square Wave Master Clock is landing today. Just got USPS text Update.
 

Can you please help and answer a few questions? 

 

* How do I power it?

 

* Do I need to use my eR backwards?

 

* If so what goes in a and what in b?

 

My issue is I have 2 separate LPS power supplies and 3 items that need powering. 
 

Both LPS have multiple power rails but both LPS share grounds internally. 
 

ITEMS THAT NEED POWER 

 

- Uptone EtherRegen  

- sonicTransporter I5

- After Dark Clock - Queen Sq wave 

 

POWER SUPPLIES 

- Uptone JS-2 (2-rails) 

- W4S PS-1 (4-rails) 

 

Note: before clock gets here today I am using JS-2 to power sonicTransporter and PS-1 to power EtherRegen and everything is great.
 

How now do I introduce the master clock?

 

What plugs into what on the EtherRegen? How do I used it backwards properly? 

 

thank you 

 

P.S.
 

I bought an Apogee Wyde Eye BNC Clock Cable - 6inches for $35. Should I use this or the cable that comes with the clock? Thanks 

 

 

I presume you have either a Ethernet into DAC or a Ethernet input streamer feeding a DAC. So it seems to me the way you should connect that is the sonicTransporter into the A side of the ER, the B side of the ER going to the DAC or streamer. In this setup you want one power supply feeding the sonicTransporter and the ER, and the other supply powering the clock.

 

With the external clock you need to be sure that the impedances match all the way, if the ER has a 75 ohm input (this is the standard impedance), then you need a 75 ohm cable and a 75 ohm output from the clock box. If the clock box is 50 ohms, then you need a 50 ohm cable and the special order ER with the 50 ohm input. So first find what output impedance is on that clock. If it is different than the input of the ER you will need to change one or the other and get the matching impedance cable. Getting the impedances matched is very important, if they are not you will not get anywhere near as good a result as you should for that clock, or it might not even work at all.

 

So it is up to you to make sure things match. If you did not explicitly  order a 50 ohm ER, then you got a 75 ohm version. Make absolutely sure what the impedance is on that clock you have, I have only seen them mention 50 ohms, so be sure it is a 75 ohm output clock if you have a "standard" ER. Same thing with the cable, make the manufacturer can tell you what the impedance really is. If they won't tell you the impedance, don't use it. If the clock and ER don't match, check with Alex, he might do a swap for a 50 ohm version for you.

 

John S.

[fsmithjack]

9 hours ago, PYP said:

just one opinion:  since everything sounds great, and to keep it simple, use the W4s to power the clock and don't change the orientation of the eR or how you use the JS2.  Then let everything settle in for a month before trying any other configuration (we may not want to by then .  Remember that the clock needs to be connected and powered on, before you power the eR, so the steps are:  

 

1.  disconnect the JS2 power cord to the eR 

2.  slide the switch on the eR that indicates you now have an external clock

3.  connect clock to the eR with clock cable (push in and then twist the metal connector to lock into place.  sometimes it is easier to do the clock side first before it is placed in your rack, just be careful not to stress the cord)

4.  power up the clock 

5.  check that any LEDs on the clock that indicate it is now working

6.  reconnect the JS2 cord to the eR

 

enjoy!

 

My clock too 1 month to completely stabilize.  AfterDark has most likely told you how long its clock will take.  In the meantime, you will most likely already have better sound than before.  Everything smooths out over the month and then blossoms.  Fun stuff!

 

 

This is a perfect and excellent response! Thanks so much for taking the time to make this easy for me!

 

i really appreciate it and will update on my progress. I love my Uptone products am excited that they can be even better. It’s so great they offered the option to use an external clock. I’m psyched for how much this has improved my system. 
Thanks again! 

[DSK6]

12 hours ago, fsmithjack said:

 

My After Dark Queen Square Wave Master Clock is landing today. Just got USPS text Update.
 

I bought an Apogee Wyde Eye BNC Clock Cable - 6inches for $35. Should I use this or the cable that comes with the clock? 

 

 

Congratulations, mine left After Dark yesterday for the long trip to Oz but my etherREGEN won't leave the USA for another week or two.

 

6 inches seems very short for the Wyde-eye clock cable. Does it have sufficient flexibility to reach between the clock and etherREGEN without kinking or flicking the etherREGEN up in the air?

 

[R1200CL]

I’m starting to think standardize on 75 ohm for EtherRegen was a wrong decision. It was probably right at that time, but now that most clocks we use is 50 ohm, I suggest 50 ohm is the new standard. 

 

What do you guys think ?
 

 

[R1200CL]

16 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

With the external clock you need to be sure that the impedances match all the way, if the ER has a 75 ohm input (this is the standard impedance), then you need a 75 ohm cable and a 75 ohm output from the clock box. If the clock box is 50 ohms, then you need a 50 ohm cable and the special order ER with the 50 ohm input.

John

One should think that a converter will do. A google search give so many to choose among. 
Should adopters 75>50 or 50>75 ohm in general be avoided ?

And spitters ?

 

When looking at various data sheets of OCXO clocks, they all seems to be 50 ohm. They often offered in two possible power options. Wouldn’t this indicate that it’s easier (and better) to produce a 50 ohm clock, as no resistor network is needed ? 

I assume you can have a direct line from the OCXO out to the connector. 
 

 

[ambre]

17 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

My preference is for a dedicated differential system with custom made differential cables and connectors. Belden actually makes a series of cables and connectors that would work well for this, but they are not cheap! It would probably wind up being $700 to $1000 for a short cable,

Dear John,

 

What we noticed recently is that there are much differences between Clock cables. In terms of SQ respectively behavior.

We tried several cables( home made and brands)  on a 75Ohm and 50 Ohm Clock. They all sound different.

 

Referring to the SOTM dCBL-BNC costing approx. $ 750 (1 meter) is much preferred by a friend with a Mutec and a Merging Nadac Master Clock.  I am using now on the Afterdark Giesemann (HUBER+SUHNER0  50 Ohm with Cybershaft converter 75 Ohm.  This sounds best for me .... but will try above mentioned SOTM too.  

 

Can you specify which types of Belden you mean. Maybe we can test it also ? 

 

Ps. In my opinion the matching of cables versus Master Clock seems very important. Imo  seems a lot of informations is lost during the transmission of the clock signal to the receiving unit like a Mutec MC3,  EtherRegen or SOTM switch with each a Master Clock input.   Where maybe cable length is also critical? Or the Sin wave or Square wave signal?

 

What I have read correct or wrong (?) is that a Square Wave is only preferred when using long(er) distances and when the quality of the BNC Clock Cable is not good enough .....for transmission the (analog) signal?  Maybe that jitter etc. plays also a role in this kind of cables and its configuration with the Master Clock?

More questions than answers? 😄

 

[fsmithjack]

20 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

I presume you have either a Ethernet into DAC or a Ethernet input streamer feeding a DAC. So it seems to me the way you should connect that is the sonicTransporter into the A side of the ER, the B side of the ER going to the DAC or streamer. In this setup you want one power supply feeding the sonicTransporter and the ER, and the other supply powering the clock.

 

With the external clock you need to be sure that the impedances match all the way, if the ER has a 75 ohm input (this is the standard impedance), then you need a 75 ohm cable and a 75 ohm output from the clock box. If the clock box is 50 ohms, then you need a 50 ohm cable and the special order ER with the 50 ohm input. So first find what output impedance is on that clock. If it is different than the input of the ER you will need to change one or the other and get the matching impedance cable. Getting the impedances matched is very important, if they are not you will not get anywhere near as good a result as you should for that clock, or it might not even work at all.

 

So it is up to you to make sure things match. If you did not explicitly  order a 50 ohm ER, then you got a 75 ohm version. Make absolutely sure what the impedance is on that clock you have, I have only seen them mention 50 ohms, so be sure it is a 75 ohm output clock if you have a "standard" ER. Same thing with the cable, make the manufacturer can tell you what the impedance really is. If they won't tell you the impedance, don't use it. If the clock and ER don't match, check with Alex, he might do a swap for a 50 ohm version for you.

 

John S.

 

Hello John,

Thanks so much for the help!  

 

Yes my DAC takes an Ethernet cable direct in. It has a built in network player / Roon endpoint. 

 

I have 3 Ethernet cables that need to plug go into the ER.  (Version FiOS Router > sonicTransporter > DAC / Bricasti M1SE) 

 

- It looks like you think I should plug > sonicTransporter > Version FiOS Router into SIDE A

                                                             > DAC Bricasti into SIDE B

 

- Power the sonicTransporter and ER with Uptone JS-2 

- Power the After Dark Clock with W4S PS-1

 

Couple questions:

 

 1.) Can I power anything else with the W4S PS-1? It has 4 rails and I would like to use power a W4R Remedy that works great with my TV.

 2.) I bought the one they describe as made for special for the etherRegen. It was Queen Square Wave 75ohm special audiophilestyle edition. I think / hope this is the right one?  

3.) I read somewhere the shorter the BNC clock cable the better so I order a 6 inch version. Is this cable ok to use info below?     

75 Ω Apogee Wyde Eye Word Clock (BNC) Cable Geistnote (House Brand) $35.00  (2 reviews) SKU: GNWEBB
Color:  Purple Cable Length: 6 inches 

 

https://geistnote.com/75-apogee-wyde-eye-word-clock-bnc-cable/

 

Thanks  again John - this all new to me and this info has been super helpful. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fsmithjack]

Have any of you guys tried a Grounding Cable like this for your EtherRegen?

 

I had nothing to ground it to so thought this might work well? Anyone try anything like this? 

 

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BT9TQKD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

 

 

 

[fsmithjack]

17 hours ago, DSK6 said:

 

Congratulations, mine left After Dark yesterday for the long trip to Oz but my etherREGEN won't leave the USA for another week or two.

 

6 inches seems very short for the Wyde-eye clock cable. Does it have sufficient flexibility to reach between the clock and etherREGEN without kinking or flicking the etherREGEN up in the air?

 

Thanks DSK6 - Yes can't wait to try it the AD Clock.

 

I read somewhere the shorter the clock cable the better. I do not know if this is true or not just trying to learn on the fly and following things I read.

 

I have an extra shelf on my Solid Tech ROS 4 Rack but might not always have the extra room I have now.

 

I hope I can just put the ER and Clock in front of each other so the 6" cable fills right into the ER so the 6" should work for now. Do you know if shorter the better is true?  

[DSK6]

3 hours ago, fsmithjack said:

Thanks DSK6 - Yes can't wait to try it the AD Clock.

 

I read somewhere the shorter the clock cable the better. I do not know if this is true or not just trying to learn on the fly and following things I read.

 

I have an extra shelf on my Solid Tech ROS 4 Rack but might not always have the extra room I have now.

 

I hope I can just put the ER and Clock in front of each other so the 6" cable fills right into the ER so the 6" should work for now. Do you know if shorter the better is true?  

I don't profess to have any expertise in this area. My personal belief is that in many cases there is some scientific reasoning behind "shorter is better" (i.e. there are maximum recommended lengths to avoid signal measurable degredation and therefore there must be "some" degredation at lengths shorter than this too) but that this is not typically audible in a typical system using  typical cable lengths. Yes, we audiophiles obsess over tiny audible differences but I think we go overboard in many cases and this is why people on "that other forum" laugh at us.

 

I too ordered a Wide-eye last week, an 18 inch length to be sure that it can comfortably reach between my components, but I strongly doubt that anyone could hear the difference between a 6 inch length and 3 foot length of the same clock cable. I ordered it purely because it has consistently received favourable feedback over a long period and gives me a comparison against the clock cable being supplied by After Dark (which is largely unknown yet) so that I can be sure I'm not missing out on any SQ improvement .... plus it will be neater than the longer 1m After Dark cable if it sounds as good or better.

 

[fsmithjack]

21 minutes ago, DSK6 said:

I don't profess to have any expertise in this area. My personal belief is that in many cases there is some scientific reasoning behind "shorter is better" (i.e. there are maximum recommended lengths to avoid signal measurable degredation and therefore there must be "some" degredation at lengths shorter than this too) but that this is not typically audible in a typical system using  typical cable lengths. Yes, we audiophiles obsess over tiny audible differences but I think we go overboard in many cases and this is why people on "that other forum" laugh at us.

 

I too ordered a Wide-eye last week, an 18 inch length to be sure that it can comfortably reach between my components, but I strongly doubt that anyone could hear the difference between a 6 inch length and 3 foot length of the same clock cable. I ordered it purely because it has consistently received favourable feedback over a long period and gives me a comparison against the clock cable being supplied by After Dark (which is largely unknown yet) so that I can be sure I'm not missing out on any SQ improvement .... plus it will be neater than the longer 1m After Dark cable if it sounds as good or better.

 

 

Smart - I wish I bought the longer one now Hindsight being 20/20 6 inches is pretty dang short. With some luck I can set them up so it works ok.  

[MasterWarzombie]

On 3/5/2021 at 3:40 PM, PYP said:

just one opinion:  since everything sounds great, and to keep it simple, use the W4s to power the clock and don't change the orientation of the eR or how you use the JS2.  Then let everything settle in for a month before trying any other configuration (we may not want to by then .  Remember that the clock needs to be connected and powered on, before you power the eR, so the steps are:  

 

1.  disconnect the JS2 power cord to the eR 

2.  slide the switch on the eR that indicates you now have an external clock

3.  connect clock to the eR with clock cable (push in and then twist the metal connector to lock into place.  sometimes it is easier to do the clock side first before it is placed in your rack, just be careful not to stress the cord)

4.  power up the clock 

5.  check that any LEDs on the clock that indicate it is now working

6.  reconnect the JS2 cord to the eR

 

enjoy!

 

My clock too 1 month to completely stabilize.  AfterDark has most likely told you how long its clock will take.  In the meantime, you will most likely already have better sound than before.  Everything smooths out over the month and then blossoms.  Fun stuff!

 

 

5.  check that any LEDs on the clock that indicate it is now working ?????????????

 

on the Afterdark clock, there is no light indicating its operation.

[R1200CL]

4 hours ago, fsmithjack said:

It was Queen Square Wave 75ohm special audiophilestyle edition.

That one is supplied with a nice Belden coax. Why you want to change ?

[R1200CL]

4 hours ago, fsmithjack said:

Have any of you guys tried a Grounding Cable like this for your EtherRegen?

 

I had nothing to ground it to so thought this might work well? Anyone try anything like this? 

 

What makes you think you need a grounding cable?

And why can’t you just use a simple wire ?

 

If you want to wast your money, I recommend this one. 
https://www.nordost.com/qrt/qline-groundwire.php

With the most expensive Furutech plug.  

[fsmithjack]

4 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

What makes you think you need a grounding cable?

And why can’t you just use a simple wire ?

 

I have no idea where / how to use a simple wire as a ground?  I bought this ground because I can plug it into the wall. 

 

I don't want to stuff a bare wire into my outlet? Not sure what hole to stick it into...lol 

 

My rack is all coated. I don't have anything else that has a ground thingy on it? There is nothing on my amp or anything I have I can ground to.

 

I am going to use my UP JS-2 to power multiple items and read it shares a ground internally so wanted to get a good external ground to make up for any that I may lose because I read that matters.

 

Again, this whole clock thing is new to me. As far as trying a different BNC cable many folks said short cables help so thought to try a short one but again it is mainly my just sort of stumbling and bumbling along through all this.

 

I am sure in the not too near future I will be much more knowledgeable. Once I own it and use and get a feel for it then I think I will have a clue. Right now I don't even know what I don't know. Once I know what I don't know then I will start to know a bit more...     

[R1200CL]

59 minutes ago, fsmithjack said:

I don't want to stuff a bare wire into my outlet? Not sure what hole to stick it into...lol 

You connect a simple wire to the earth screw in a socket. Meaning the plug that you stick into the wall. You can purchase them almost anywhere. If you bought that cable with resistor, I suggest you cut and splice it, so you’re leaving the resistor out. 
 

Here is a search for you. 
https://audiophilestyle.com/search/?&q=Ground cable&author=JohnSwenson&search_and_or=and&sortby=relevancy

 

Also please read EtherRegen user guide carefully. It’s there for a reason. 

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, fsmithjack said:

I am going to use my UP JS-2 to power multiple items and read it shares a ground internally so wanted to get a good external ground to make up for any that I may lose because I read that matters.

This is John’s own words if at any help. 
 

“Are you going to be powering anything else from the other output of the JS-2? By doing so you may wind up bypassing the isolation of the EtherREGEN. The grounds of the two outputs on the JS-2 are the same, thus if you power the EtherREGEN and something downstream (streamer, DAC, DDC etc) from the same JS-2 you are shorting the isolation (both sides having the same ground).”

 

I suggest you continue this discussion in another tread. 
Use the search function and you’re finding the specific post, and can quote and continue to ask about how to power everything. 
Making yourself some schematic may help you understand where you break isolation etc. 

 

Of cause clock cable belong here. 
And they can be a source to break isolation, which is more of a concern than length. 
 

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0660/6121/files/EtherREGEN_User_Guide.pdf?90

[Roasty]

 

Am I shorting anything or screwing up isolation with this setup? 

 

One AfterDark clock to ER and a second AfterDark clock to an sotm streamer. 

 

Keces P8 lps supplying 2 AfterDark clocks. Is that OK? Or should it be separate power supplies to each clock? 

[GryphonGuy]

12 hours ago, R1200CL said:

I’m starting to think standardize on 75 ohm for EtherRegen was a wrong decision. It was probably right at that time, but now that most clocks we use is 50 ohm, I suggest 50 ohm is the new standard. 

 

What do you guys think ?
 

 

 

Please see my my post in another thread (below). You are trying to corrupt an industry standard. ☺️

 

 

Regards

GG

[R1200CL]

24 minutes ago, GryphonGuy said:

You are trying to corrupt an industry standard.

I totally disagree.

 

https://www.wilsonamplifiers.ca/blog/50-ohm-vs-75-ohm-which-is-best-for-you/

 

https://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/why-fifty-ohms

 

Even Esoteric uses 50 ohm. 
http://www.area51musicfest.com/products/catalog/pdf/g01_en-p.pdf

 

[LowMidHigh]

5 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

I totally disagree.

 

https://www.wilsonamplifiers.ca/blog/50-ohm-vs-75-ohm-which-is-best-for-you/

 

https://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/why-fifty-ohms

 

Even Esoteric uses 50 ohm. 
http://www.area51musicfest.com/products/catalog/pdf/g01_en-p.pdf

 

The article you cite contradicts your asserssion:

 

"For home applications, they do a perfectly fine job of transmitting signal up to 50 feet of cable with home or small building installation topping out at 5,000 sq ft." 

 

The most important thing is to match impedances The rest is splitting hair and nitpicking. 

 

 

[GryphonGuy]

13 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

I totally disagree.

 

https://www.wilsonamplifiers.ca/blog/50-ohm-vs-75-ohm-which-is-best-for-you/

 

https://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/why-fifty-ohms

 

Even Esoteric uses 50 ohm. 
http://www.area51musicfest.com/products/catalog/pdf/g01_en-p.pdf

 

 

One can change the scope of the argument to what one wants and then claim that the original scope is not valid. The fact remains, and I clarify for the scope changers amongst us, that my "industry" implication was for the Professional Audio Industry, where AUDIO clocks have traditionally been used.

 

Regards

GG

[R1200CL]

7 minutes ago, GryphonGuy said:

The fact remains, and I clarify for the scope changers amongst us, that my "industry" implication was for the Professional Audio Industry, where AUDIO clocks have traditionally been used.

 

https://sound-au.com/articles/coax.htm
 

Are these clocks 10 MHz ?

 

The fact also remains is that most if not all OCXO data sheets for 10 MHz  stats 50 ohm. 

[LowMidHigh]

5 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

https://sound-au.com/articles/coax.htm
 

Are these clocks 10 MHz ?

 

The fact also remains is that most if not all OCXO data sheets for 10 MHz  stats 50

ohm. 

 

Mutec Ref10 is furnished with both. The balance is tilted towards 75ohm, which reflects the majority of slave devices out there, e.g, MC3+USB and the ER.