Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[James Stephens]

50 minutes ago, fsmithjack said:

Thank you James - I was worried no one would look at my purchase and reply. Thanks I really appreciate it.

 

I use the factory power supply that came with the eR because I read it works better because of its ground.
 

I use JS-2 to power my sonicTransporter I5 and was going to power this clock I bought. Is that ok to do?
 

I also own a Wyred 4 Sound PS-1 with 4 rails 5v to 15v. It maxes out at 1.3amps per rails. What one do you think I should use to power my clock the JS-2 or PS-1? 
 

Also, I own a Gigafoil filter and was thinking about putting this right after my fiOs router which then goes to my OCXO switch from The Linear Technology switch and then that switch goes into a side of eR and then the b side feeds Ethernet right into my Bricasti as it accepts an Ethernet cable direct and has built in Roon Ethernet player. Do you think it’s worth using a Gigafoil right after my version fiOs router or is it overkill and a waist? 
 

thanks again for the kind response. I am not that great at this stuff but starting to learn. Love my eR. 

 

Hi there,

 

If you want to power the clock and your sonicTransporter I5 from the JS-2 then this might just be one of those situations where it is best to reverse the eR as PYP suggested above. The reason would be that you want to move the clock connection to the same side of the eR as the sT i5 so as not to defeat the moat.

 

I am assuming your sT i5 is not connected to an A port on the eR when I say that. A diagram of how you are planning on connecting everything together would be very helpful. Doesn't have to be neat ... just draw it out on a piece of paper.

 

I'm not that familiar with the Gigafoil or the Wyred 4 Sound PS-1  .. others hopefully might be and can answer you on those  .... also those questions seem off topic if I'm honest so maybe the best thing to do is to post these to a New Topic  .. I am willing to bet you'll get some answers if you include a diagram.

 

Best,

James

 

 

 

 

 

[James Stephens]

9 hours ago, PYP said:

Not to argue, but according to a conversation with Alex, that is not correct.  

 

Thanks PYP. Looking forward to possibly learning something new if he has time to reply on this. Best, James

[ambre]

On 2/11/2021 at 3:09 AM, JohnSwenson said:

I want to reiterate, before buying clock products, please wait for the clock paper to come out. It explains a lot of what is going on here and I want people to make informed choices.

 

Thanks,

 

John S.

Dear Alex and John,

 

How long do we have wait?  It seems a promise that is now constantly being postponed. 
May be we should call it “ Brown papers Master Clock EtherRegen” .

[Ponkbutler]

5 minutes ago, ambre said:

Dear Alex and John,

 

How long do we have wait?  It seems a promise that is now constantly being postponed. 
May be we should call it “ Brown papers Master Clock EtherRegen” .

I can fully understand your impatience, but I really don’t think that tone is called for.

 

After all this is more than anything else a favour to all of us in the “Uptone community” and we all know this is a period when both John and Alex have their hands full.…

[fsmithjack]

On 2/22/2021 at 9:37 PM, James Stephens said:

 

Hi there,

 

If you want to power the clock and your sonicTransporter I5 from the JS-2 then this might just be one of those situations where it is best to reverse the eR as PYP suggested above. The reason would be that you want to move the clock connection to the same side of the eR as the sT i5 so as not to defeat the moat.

 

I am assuming your sT i5 is not connected to an A port on the eR when I say that. A diagram of how you are planning on connecting everything together would be very helpful. Doesn't have to be neat ... just draw it out on a piece of paper.

 

I'm not that familiar with the Gigafoil or the Wyred 4 Sound PS-1  .. others hopefully might be and can answer you on those  .... also those questions seem off topic if I'm honest so maybe the best thing to do is to post these to a New Topic  .. I am willing to bet you'll get some answers if you include a diagram.

 

Best,

James

 

 

 

 

 

Hello James,

Thanks again for the help.

 

I drew a sketch like you asked and it is not pretty but I hope it helps.

 

Using the eR backwards sort of confuses me but I’m glad to do it if you guys think it helps. I am attaching a hand written diagram but I want to type it out here because I think it will be easier to understand... lol 

 

My set up goes like this:

—————————————————

* Version fiOs Router (LPS)

* SGC - sonicTransporter I5 (JS-2) 

- Both of these plug into:

 

* OCXO Switch - The Linear Soulution (LPS) 

- Ethernet out plugs into A side 

 

* EtherRegen (OEM Wallwart)

- B side out plugs into 

 

* Bricasti M1SE DAC that accepts Ethernet direct plug in. 
—————————————————-

I just bought this BG7TGL Clock and was thinking of powering with 2nd rail of JS-2. I do have W4S PS-1 I could use instead but it has 4 rails so not sure how good the ground is on that. I also have an extra Chinese 12v 2amp supply I could also if you think that is a better idea? 
—————————————————-

power supply notes:

 

I have one rail open on my JS2 to power new Clock BG7TGL 

 

I have these Power Supplies 
 

- 2 x 12v 2amp Chinese LPS
- Uptone Audio JS-2 LPS 2 rails. 
- OCXO switch has it own LPS 
- W4S PS-2 - (4) separate rails - adjustable 5v, 7v, 12v 1.3 amp max per 

 

 

[PYP]

2 hours ago, fsmithjack said:

My set up goes like this:

—————————————————

* Version fiOs Router (LPS)

* SGC - sonicTransporter I5 (JS-2) 

- Both of these plug into:

 

* OCXO Switch - The Linear Soulution (LPS) 

- Ethernet out plugs into A side 

 

* EtherRegen (OEM Wallwart)

- B side out plugs into 

 

* Bricasti M1SE DAC that accepts Ethernet direct plug in. 
—————————————————-

Not @James Stephens but have an opinion anyway.    I would suggest three separate experiments (with at least a week in between to listen):  1) power the eR with the JS-2, then 2) power the clock with one of the other LPS units, then 3) turn around the eR (B > A) with no changes to the cables and power both the eR and the clock with the JS-2.  Which do you like best?  That one is the best and don't let anyone tell you differently.  The changes might be subtle since you have an amazing system already.  If the JS-2 is new and unused, it may take a while to settle in.  Mine took a month to settle in completely when new.  Once settle in, it is wonderful LPS.  Above all - have fun!

[James Stephens]

6 hours ago, fsmithjack said:

Hello James,

Thanks again for the help.

 

I drew a sketch like you asked and it is not pretty but I hope it helps.

 

Using the eR backwards sort of confuses me but I’m glad to do it if you guys think it helps. I am attaching a hand written diagram but I want to type it out here because I think it will be easier to understand... lol 

 

My set up goes like this:

—————————————————

* Version fiOs Router (LPS)

* SGC - sonicTransporter I5 (JS-2) 

- Both of these plug into:

 

* OCXO Switch - The Linear Soulution (LPS) 

- Ethernet out plugs into A side 

 

* EtherRegen (OEM Wallwart)

- B side out plugs into 

 

* Bricasti M1SE DAC that accepts Ethernet direct plug in. 
—————————————————-

I just bought this BG7TGL Clock and was thinking of powering with 2nd rail of JS-2. I do have W4S PS-1 I could use instead but it has 4 rails so not sure how good the ground is on that. I also have an extra Chinese 12v 2amp supply I could also if you think that is a better idea? 
—————————————————-

power supply notes:

 

I have one rail open on my JS2 to power new Clock BG7TGL 

 

I have these Power Supplies 
 

- 2 x 12v 2amp Chinese LPS
- Uptone Audio JS-2 LPS 2 rails. 
- OCXO switch has it own LPS 
- W4S PS-2 - (4) separate rails - adjustable 5v, 7v, 12v 1.3 amp max per 

 

 

 

Hi there,

 

So many options for you with the equipment you have.

 

Reverse the ER and you will be ok powering the BG7TBL from the JS-2 along with your ST i5.

 

Maybe install that GigaFoil between your FiOS router and the OXCO Switch for a bit more isolation.

 

Make sure the Ethernet cable from your ER to the Bricasti is not too long. 3m max. Ideally less than 1m.

 

Best,

James

 

 

[fsmithjack]

Thanks so much guys.

 

Ok so when you say use it backwards that means plug my switch out into er into b and then my dac out from a? Because i use a switch i only have one ethernet cable going into each side but i need to do it backwards because that helps with grounding because i will be powering js-2 for both clock and SGC ST I5? I hope have this right? I never would have guess this. Ok what if I don't use the 2nd rail from JS-2 and use my W4S PS-1. Should i only use one of the 4 power rails so that doesn't mess up the grounding. Also, I am powering my er with wallwart because people say this is better because of moat ground. Is this true also. Think I am starting the wrap my head around this a bit. I really do appreciate the help. I am def a clock and er newbie. Thanks 

Thanks 

[PYP]

45 minutes ago, fsmithjack said:

Thanks so much guys.

 

1.  Ok so when you say use it backwards that means plug my switch out into er into b and then my dac out from a? Because i use a switch i only have one ethernet cable going into each side but i need to do it backwards because that helps with grounding because i will be powering js-2 for both clock and SGC ST I5? I hope have this right?

 

 2.  Ok what if I don't use the 2nd rail from JS-2 and use my W4S PS-1. Should i only use one of the 4 power rails so that doesn't mess up the grounding. Also, I am powering my er with wallwart because people say this is better because of moat ground. Is this true also. Think I am starting the wrap my head around this a bit. I really do appreciate the help. I am def a clock and er newbie. Thanks 

Thanks 

#1:  Correct, the setup would be:  switch to eR B side, then eR A side to DAC.  I'm new to all this too, but I suggested that B > A setup if you power both the eR and the clock with the JS-2 so that you don't defeat the eR's moat (which happens with a A > B setup and powering both eR and clock with the JS-2.    

 

I'm not sure whether powering the JS-2 and the SGC I5 creates a grounding issue.  I can't see how it would affect the eR since it is before the eR.  That said, your system might sound better with a separate LPS for clock and SGC.

 

#2:  My suggestion was to try one output of the JS-2 for the eR and other LPS units for your clock and SGC I5.  I think you will find an improvement in sound.  That is the first experiment.  The next experiment is based upon my own setup, where the JS-2 makes a large difference with the clock.  So, generalizing from my system (which isn't your system, so who knows), I suggested ultimately trying the B > A setup with the JS-2 powering the clock and eR, with a separate LPS for the SGC.  

 

Hope that all makes sense.  The JS-2 is a wonderful LPS, so I think it makes sense to put it where it makes the greatest difference.  You will need to experiment with your setup to figure out where that is.   Luckily, you already have multiple LPS units to play with.  

[James Stephens]

2 hours ago, fsmithjack said:

Also, I am powering my er with wallwart because people say this is better because of moat ground. Is this true also. Think I am starting the wrap my head around this a bit. I really do appreciate the help. I am def a clock and er newbie. Thanks 

Thanks 

 

Hi there,

 

I'll just answer you on this piece as you know now how to reverse the ER.

 

ER works very well indeed with the supplied SMPS which includes a ground shunt to take care of leakage currents. There is also a ground screw so that if you use for example the Uptone LPS-1.2 to power it instead (which is a "floating" power supply) then you can run an insulated wire safely to some AC mains ground or to the chassis of a known-grounded component.

 

Best,

James

 

 

[DSK6]

4 hours ago, James Stephens said:

 

... Make sure the Ethernet cable from your ER to the Bricasti is not too long. 3m max. Ideally less than 1m. ...

 

 

Is the length of the patch cord between eR and DAC really important? Are you concerned that it will act as an antennae and degrade the signal? 

 

I thought that once the eR cleaned up the garbage introduced by the preceding comms gear that the patch cord length (within reason) to the DAC wouldn't matter. I have an eR, AfterDark OXCO master reference clock and LPS on order and was planning to insert them into my system per the diagram below. My reason for locating this gear in the adjoining room is that I don't then have to worry about all the clutter of small boxes behind my hifi system and I don't have to plug the eR's SMPS into my dedicated AC lines that service my hifi system (I've managed to remove all SMPS's from the system).

 

Do I need to reconsider?

 

[James Stephens]

6 minutes ago, DSK6 said:

 

Is the length of the patch cord between eR and DAC really important? Are you concerned that it will act as an antennae and degrade the signal? 

 

I thought that once the eR cleaned up the garbage introduced by the preceding comms gear that the patch cord length (within reason) to the DAC wouldn't matter. I have an eR, AfterDark OXCO master reference clock and LPS on order and was planning to insert them into my system per the diagram below. My reason for locating this gear in the adjoining room is that I don't then have to worry about all the clutter of small boxes behind my hifi system and I don't have to plug the eR's SMPS into my dedicated AC lines that service my hifi system (I've managed to remove all SMPS's from the system).

 

Do I need to reconsider?

 

 

 

Oh no I'm going to have to pull an "Alex told me on the phone" lol. When I was first integrating an ER into my system I had a 4m Ethernet cable on the B-side to my DAC and after reviewing a diagram of my proposed setup Alex suggested I move the ER from my basement and get it as close to the DAC as I could. I did exactly that and now I have a 0.7m Ethernet cable on the B side and I installed an Optical Module in the basement and ran fiber up to my ER on a small stand directly behind my main equipment rack.

 

Yes this tip isn't in the ER manual.

 

You can perhaps plug the SMPS into a regular outlet it doesn't have to be plugged into one of your audiophile dedicated lines.

 

Best,

James

 

[DSK6]

@JamesStephens  Thanks for the feedback but I'll need more info to be convinced.

 

The network topology and hifi system will remain unchanged and currently sounds wonderfully natural. If I add the EtherREGEN and OCXO clock between the router and this 8m CAT6 cable to clean up the grunge potentially added by the comms gear, the system should either sound exactly the same as it does now or hopefully better. However, I can't see how a 1m CAT6 cable between the EtherREGEN and SSR streamer will sound any different to an 8m one.

 

I'm certainly no expert but the only reason I can think of is issues caused by the "antenna affect" of the longer cable. However, this is exactly the same cable I'm using now without an etherREGEN and there are no audible nasties that I can detect. Surely any degredation caused by the longer length would not be detectable by human hearing?

 

I'd be very interested to hear whether anyone else on this forum has replaced an ethernet cable with an identical one of a shorter length and heard a repeatable difference, or has knowledge of why this could be so.

 

 

[fsmithjack]

QUICK QUESTION:

Anyone ever buy from AliExpress? 
 

I bought this clock 4 day’s ago and my order just sitting in pending order status. 4 days?
 

Should I cancel and buy on eBay? I mean it seems like a big reputable site but order just sitting there? Am I missing something? I even paid extra for quicker shipping? 

[James Stephens]

8 hours ago, DSK6 said:

@JamesStephens  Thanks for the feedback but I'll need more info to be convinced.

 

The network topology and hifi system will remain unchanged and currently sounds wonderfully natural. If I add the EtherREGEN and OCXO clock between the router and this 8m CAT6 cable to clean up the grunge potentially added by the comms gear, the system should either sound exactly the same as it does now or hopefully better. However, I can't see how a 1m CAT6 cable between the EtherREGEN and SSR streamer will sound any different to an 8m one.

 

I'm certainly no expert but the only reason I can think of is issues caused by the "antenna affect" of the longer cable. However, this is exactly the same cable I'm using now without an etherREGEN and there are no audible nasties that I can detect. Surely any degredation caused by the longer length would not be detectable by human hearing?

 

I'd be very interested to hear whether anyone else on this forum has replaced an ethernet cable with an identical one of a shorter length and heard a repeatable difference, or has knowledge of why this could be so.

 

 

I did find this in the ER manual on page 7 "If you are going to hear a difference with an Ethernet cable, it will more likely be with the ‘B’-side cable. This is also a good one to keep short."

 

That said, there are some interesting comments from JS on this subject on page 15 here:

 

 

 

"Changes made by different cable lengths and material types etc make such small changes in the signal that they are incredibly hard to measure. "

 

"Any changes I make in the electronics make vastly larger SQ changes than Ethernet cable changes that I have ZERO interest in spending a lot of time trying to find "THE BEST" cable. "

 

Best,

James

 

 

[MartinT]

The cable from the B side to your streamer is critical as you have just taken the trouble to clean up the noise using the ER. You now need to keep it clean. Cable length and further pickup of RFI are to be avoided.

 

I use a 12cm Cat6 link (that's very short) from ER to my ultraRendu and, even then, I can hear the difference between four different links I've tried.

[DarqueKnight]

Many thanks to @MartinT , @Superdad ,  @JohnSwenson and others who contributed to this thread. Based on the good advice and personal experiences described here, I decided to forego playing "reclaimed cell tower clock roulette". I recently ordered an Afterdark Giesemann Triple Output (75 ohm square wave) OCXO with integrated linear power supply. A review will be posted in the Afterdark forum after it is received and settled in.

 

If my curiosity gets the better of me, I might order one of the cell tower clocks to compare it to the Afterdark Giesmann.

 

 

My EtherREGEN is configured as follows: TeraDak DC-30 linear power supply, Revelation Audio Labs Cat8+ 1.25m Ethernet cable B-side to Bryston BDP-3 digital player, Revelation Audio Labs Cat8+ Ethernet cable, A-side port 1  to Synology DS718+ NAS, Monoprice Cat8 Ethernet cable, A-side port 4 to Araknis AN-110-SW-S8 Ethernet switch. The Araknis switch provides the stereo system's networked components (BDP-3 digital player, PS Audio P10 AC regenerator, EtherREGEN) a wired connection to the home LAN's router.

 

The EtherREGEN is located on the top rear of a dCS Puccini U-Clock word clock.

 

Digital source components, left to right: dCS Debussy DAC, dCS Puccini word clock, Synology DS718+ NAS, Bryston BDP-3 digital player. The three main source components sit on PS Audio PowerBase isolation platforms and Black Diamond Racing isolation cones and pucks. The NAS sits on a 1/2" thick pad of Sorbothane. Twenty-two pound granite slabs anchor the DAC, word clock, and digital player to their isolation platforms. The NAS is powered by a TeraDak DC-150 linear power supply. Source components and preamp are powered by a PS Audio P10 AC regenerator, which is fed by a dedicated 20 amp AC circuit. Each monoblock power amp has its own 20 amp AC circuit, which are on separate legs of the breaker box's electrical service.

 

 

[lwr]

5 hours ago, MartinT said:

The cable from the B side to your streamer is critical as you have just taken the trouble to clean up the noise using the ER. You now need to keep it clean. Cable length and further pickup of RFI are to be avoided.

 

I use a 12cm Cat6 link (that's very short) from ER to my ultraRendu and, even then, I can hear the difference between four different links I've tried.

Congrats on an elegantly laid out set up.  Looking forward to your review.

[DarqueKnight]

 

I was curious about the specs of the cell phone tower OCXO  clock currently offered on AliExpress for the EtherREGEN. I asked the vendor these questions:

 

1. What is the output impedance, 50 ohms or 75 ohms? The pictures look like 50 ohm outputs, but I wasn't sure if the picture was the actual product.

 

2. Who is the manufacturer of the OCXO?

 

Answers:

 

1. 50 ohms.

2. NDK 2525.

 

AliExpress OCXO item ordering page:

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001705401580.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.4a913c00TOaaBw&mp=1

 

NDK2525 spec sheet:

 

https://www.ndk.com/en/ad/2013/001/pdf/c_NZ2520SD_e.pdf

 

 

[MartinT]

1 hour ago, DarqueKnight said:

 

Answers:

 

1. 50 ohms.

2. NDK 2525.

 

 

I think you've not read this thread fully. A few of us have asked for and received 75 ohm units. It's easy to verify by looking at the BNC connectors.

 

There are at least three brands of OCXO clocks used. Both my active and spare one use DAPU.

 

Also, some units are single square and dual sinewave, while others are triple squarewave. It depends on what you want.

[DarqueKnight]

3 minutes ago, MartinT said:

 

I think you've not read this thread fully. A few of us have asked for and received 75 ohm units. It's easy to verify by looking at the BNC connectors.

 

There are at least three brands of OCXO clocks used. Both my active and spare one use DAPU.

 

Also, some units are single square and dual sinewave, while others are triple squarewave. It depends on what you want.

I read the thread fully. I think you did not read, or understand, my post fully.

 

As my post stated, the pictures in the AliExpress ad I referenced showed 50 ohm outputs, but the ad specifically stated that the clock was for EtherREGEN owners. I wanted to ask about the output impedace to be sure. Product pictures in ads are not always representative of the actual product.

 

I recall reading that the DAPU OXCO stocks have been depleted, and that people were receiving clocks that had other brands of oscillators. That is why I asked the vendor in my referenced AliExpress ad about the OCXO brand in their clock.

 

Obviously, I am aware that there are several options for these type of  OCXO clocks and outputs, hence my references to not wanting to play "reclaimed cell tower clock roulette", and ordering the Afterdark Giesemann clock with integrated linear power supply.

 

Specifically, I was posting information for those who might be interested in that particular AliExpress OCXO option, as I had not seen the specs for it posted previously. My apologies if I overlooked it.

 

I am still interested in one of these inexpensive clocks to compare to the Giesemann, and possibly to use with my second EtherREGEN in my system at work.

[MartinT]

Ah, my apologies, I misread the sense of your post.

[DarqueKnight]

Again, thanks for posting this thread and your results. I had been interested in better clocks for my EtherREGENS for quite some time, but did not want to spend thousands of dollars. I was not aware of Afterdark products until I read about them in this thread.

[fsmithjack]

2 hours ago, DarqueKnight said:

 

I was curious about the specs of the cell phone tower OCXO  clock currently offered on AliExpress for the EtherREGEN. I asked the vendor these questions:

 

1. What is the output impedance, 50 ohms or 75 ohms? The pictures look like 50 ohm outputs, but I wasn't sure if the picture was the actual product.

 

2. Who is the manufacturer of the OCXO?

 

Answers:

 

1. 50 ohms.

2. NDK 2525.

 

AliExpress OCXO item ordering page:

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001705401580.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.4a913c00TOaaBw&mp=1

 

NDK2525 spec sheet:

 

https://www.ndk.com/en/ad/2013/001/pdf/c_NZ2520SD_e.pdf

 

 

I would be carful.

 

I bought this exact item from AliExpress 4 days ago and my order is just sitting there.

 

I paid in full 4 days ago and emailed seller and have heard nothing.

 

I guess I will just cancel and order on eBay but very annoying. I paid extra for expedited shipping and still nothing? What kind of site is this? I thought it was like Amazon and you buy it and they ship it but that does not seem to be the case? It is very odd... In the order screen they have this message that counts down from 6 days that says if order not mailed out within this time the order will be refunded and a button that gives the seller more time if you want? What? AliExpress is sending me emails saying hey buy this item? I am thinking,  I already did what is wrong with this company? 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I'm not defending the timeline, but Chinese New Year this year is 2/11-17. They may be digging out?