Grimm Audio MU1 and MU2 Music Players

[BigAlMc]

11 hours ago, skatbelt said:

 

An alternative: sell the MMT while it still has a good resale value and buy an MU2. Here in the Netherlands I see a trend of DAVE/MU1 and MMT/MU1 combinations for sale with the argument of purchasing the MU2.

 

Thanks and I can see the rationale but I only bought the MMT in July and there is no way I'm willing to part with it so soon.

[BudhaNL]

11 hours ago, skatbelt said:

 

An alternative: sell the MMT while it still has a good resale value and buy an MU2. Here in the Netherlands I see a trend of DAVE/MU1 and MMT/MU1 combinations for sale with the argument of purchasing the MU2.

 

I've seen 1 or 2 Dave's/Tamba' on 'marktplaats' & others, but maybe I'm not looking well enough? I'd love it if there'd be a Tambaqui for an achievable (to me) price... 

[TheAttorney]

20 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

I'm therefore wondering about the experiences of MU1 and MMT owners with either the PhoenixNet or Muon and any advice around the LAN side of things?

Based on my previous rave comments about the tiny £30-ish Linksys wifi dongle, my recommendation is that you try this into the MU1 before making any other decisions about networking components. This is based on MU1 to DAVE, but I doubt that matters much. With the dongle talking to the stock broadband/wifi router (as provided by the service provider) in an adjacent room.

 

Of course YMMV depending on the networking infrastructure in your home, but for a tiny fraction of the price of single audiophile fuse, you may just find that you don't need ANY networking boxes or cables. A huge saving in boxes, cables, cost and complexity. If you find that your existing networking boxes do indeed sound better than the dongle, well, you've only lost £30.

[zerung]

On 1/21/2024 at 11:20 PM, BigAlMc said:

Question for MU1 and Tambaqui owners.

 

Last year I treated myself to the MMT and I'm delighted with it as a fantastic DAC.

 

I should call it job done but you know how this hobby is 😁

 

I'm planning on replacing my Innuos Zenith SE with an MU1 but am balking at the £12k UK price and hoping to pick up a pre-loved or ex-demo unit to avoid spending an amount that would see her finally divorce me for having lost my mind 😜

 

I've spent last couple days rereading all 58 pages of this thread and the 5 pages on WBF.

 

AES is clearly needed (probably Sablon as I'm a big fan of Mark's work).

 

I can therefore sell my USB kit. Phoenix, 2 x Sablon Evo and a Network Accoustics Muon USB. And obviously the Zenith SE. So these immediately help take the sting out of the eye watering price of the MU1.

 

What's less clear and from what I've read last couple days has less consensus is the LAN improvements impact.

 

I currently have a Sonore OM delivering fibre into an ER powered by an SR4T. This is kinda non-optional because the fibre is transporting the signal a distance not really viable for ethernet.

 

More debatable are the rest of the LAN chain: 

 

Sablon LAN into PhoenixNet into Muon Pro Streaming system (into MMT).

 

When I bought the Muon Pro Streaming system I compared the following combos between ER and DAC:

 

1. Sablon LAN only

2. Muon only

3. LAN - PhoenixNet - Sablon LAN

4. Sablon LAN - PhoenixNet - Muon

 

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

Hi @BigAlMc

my 2c!

I am using the Sablon AES to connect the  MU1 to MMT, it works well. Marginally better than my other cables.
The ER also provides marginal improvement on the Lan side, despite the MU1 doing its bit. I have not tried the Sablon Lan cable, possibly will not. But the ER does help. So it is there - instead of selling this off......

 

[aangen]

I have been using a Tambaqui for a couple of months now. A friend who didn’t need it anymore sent it to me. I ended up buying it from him. For me the Tambaqui is a thrill ride. I have many wonderful DACs, but the Tambaqui is a standout. The speed, the grace. It’s so fun! I have an MU2 coming, probably late February. I can’t wait to add that and see what that is all about. My MU1 may move on down the road.

 

For the most of my experience, better DACs are obvious, but somewhat similar. My Gryphon Ethos is a hammock in the tropics. With drink service. I could listen to that one forever. The DAC in my BACCH-SP adio is close, not enough difference to matter. I use it the most. But it’s in the shop for an upgrade so I am using a Bacch4Mac setup with the Tambaqui for a while. When the MU2 arrives I will only be able to use it as a DAC due to the BACCH things. But that is my main interest in it anyway. I have very high expectations. It’s a Grimm!

 

DACs, the more you can try, the more you learn.

[BigAlMc]

21 hours ago, TheAttorney said:

Based on my previous rave comments about the tiny £30-ish Linksys wifi dongle, my recommendation is that you try this into the MU1 before making any other decisions about networking components. This is based on MU1 to DAVE, but I doubt that matters much. With the dongle talking to the stock broadband/wifi router (as provided by the service provider) in an adjacent room.

 

Of course YMMV depending on the networking infrastructure in your home, but for a tiny fraction of the price of single audiophile fuse, you may just find that you don't need ANY networking boxes or cables. A huge saving in boxes, cables, cost and complexity. If you find that your existing networking boxes do indeed sound better than the dongle, well, you've only lost £30.

 

Hi @TheAttorney,

 

I've read your posts and experience with the WiFi dongle with interest. I'll admit I'm somewhat sceptical having spent years following the widely accepted dogma that WiFi is inherently noisy and LAN is better. Not that I doubt your experience for a second. More it challenges a deeply held assumption.

 

But like you said. It'd cost £30 to find  out for myself.

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

 

[BigAlMc]

On 1/22/2024 at 10:06 AM, yellowblue said:

@BigAIMc

 

As you know I went from Innous Zenith SE with Chord Dave/MScaler, Phoenix USB to MU1 and Tambaqui and really enjoy my new chain (sometimes I can miss the special flavour the SE had, but overall the MU1 is much better). I kept my PhoenixNet because I think it sounds a little better with it than without it in my chain.   

If you buy an older model without S/PDIF be carefull if it hasn´t yet got an overhaul of Grimm. As I wrote earlier I got problems two times with my older 2-series model but Grimm solved it with their great customer service.

 

Hi Ralph,

 

I recall your experience and your feedback that the MU1 beats the SE by such a large margin played a pivotal role in my coveting one! I hold you partially responsible 😄 along with the reviews from Christian Punter et al.

 

And great advice about being selective about avoiding an older preloved model.

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

 

[TheAttorney]

3 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Hi @TheAttorney,

 

I'll admit I'm somewhat sceptical having spent years following the widely accepted dogma that WiFi is inherently noisy and LAN is better.

I was also skeptical.

Details probably matter. The dongle is low speed and low powered (and 2.4G band only), so itself is probably producing a relatively low WIFI output. My broadband router is on the opposite side of an adjacent room. So an internal wall plus 8+ metres of air between it an my hifi. So the signal from the router is moderately reduced.

 

The dongle is USB-powered, which potentially introduces some issues (but doesn't seem to), but definitely removes other issues related to mains power.

 

The dongle's captive el-cheapo ethernet and USB cables are about half a metre long, so they can be clamped away from other hifi components and all sorts of filters put in between, but I haven't added much other than USB iFi iSilencers (1 in series and 1 in spare socket) and an RFI-absorbing sheet. But my positive results were noticed before adding any of those. I just added them for belt and braces because I had them redundant in my spares box.

[The Computer Audiophile]

17 minutes ago, TheAttorney said:

I was also skeptical.

Details probably matter. The dongle is low speed and low powered (and 2.4G band only), so itself is probably producing a relatively low WIFI output. My broadband router is on the opposite side of an adjacent room. So an internal wall plus 8+ metres of air between it an my hifi. So the signal from the router is moderately reduced.

 

The dongle is USB-powered, which potentially introduces some issues (but doesn't seem to), but definitely removes other issues related to mains power.

 

The dongle's captive el-cheapo ethernet and USB cables are about half a metre long, so they can be clamped away from other hifi components and all sorts of filters put in between, but I haven't added much other than USB iFi iSilencers (1 in series and 1 in spare socket) and an RFI-absorbing sheet. But my positive results were noticed before adding any of those. I just added them for belt and braces because I had them redundant in my spares box.

These details are really important. 
 

I’ve had very good and expensive components with built-in WiFi that emitted audible pulses of RF unless manually disabled. 
 

Your route seems pretty good. 

[Mike123]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

These details are really important. 
 

I’ve had very good and expensive components with built-in WiFi that emitted audible pulses of RF unless manually disabled. 
 

Your route seems pretty good. 

Attorney 

 

as a fellow Dave/mu1 owner   I believe your decision to stay with mu1 was the lack of crossfeed on mu2? 

[Vincent des Champs]

https://hifi-nl.translate.goog/artikel/33180/Review-Grimm-MU2-zijn-we-al-bij-de-grens.html?_x_tr_sl=nl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=nl&_x_tr_pto=wapp

[FredM]

The story about the MU2, nice insights in the Digital Part 👍

 

 

[SQFIRST]

7 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

I've read your posts and experience with the WiFi dongle with interest

Adding my experience with the Netgear dongle as I too became curios after reading theAttorney's posts here.

I tried it with my Lumin X1 streamer-dac which has regular ethernet as well as an optical SFP input. The netgear dongle does make a simple setup with its low USB power and efficient wifi handling. For my X1 though, it was no match for the SFP connection. The sound was clean with the wifi dongle but the dynamic range and soundstage were compromised enough to make me take it out. My conclusion was that it can be an effective solution for an upstream location but not at the endpoint (at the dac) where network quality is critical. I suspect the MU1's preprocessing architecture maybe compensating for any weakness but an A/B is warranted to be certain. 

As long as one is happy with the music that is all that matters.

[PYP]

11 hours ago, aangen said:

I have been using a Tambaqui for a couple of months now. A friend who didn’t need it anymore sent it to me. I ended up buying it from him. For me the Tambaqui is a thrill ride. I have many wonderful DACs, but the Tambaqui is a standout. The speed, the grace. It’s so fun! I have an MU2 coming, probably late February. I can’t wait to add that and see what that is all about. My MU1 may move on down the road.

 

For the most of my experience, better DACs are obvious, but somewhat similar. My Gryphon Ethos is a hammock in the tropics. With drink service. I could listen to that one forever. The DAC in my BACCH-SP adio is close, not enough difference to matter. I use it the most. But it’s in the shop for an upgrade so I am using a Bacch4Mac setup with the Tambaqui for a while. When the MU2 arrives I will only be able to use it as a DAC due to the BACCH things. But that is my main interest in it anyway. I have very high expectations. It’s a Grimm!

 

DACs, the more you can try, the more you learn.

@aangen I typically think of these differences as between introverted and extroverted DACs, but I like your description much more.  Will the MU2 be a hammock in the tropics with drink service or something very different?  

 

Looking forward to your impressions since it doesn't seem my demo will be until mid-March and I need some vicarious thrills before then.  That said, I'm 100% happy with my current combo, so it will be an interesting (hopefully ear opening) comparison.  

[Ronnie112]

Definitely looking forward to aangens take on the MU2 in his nice setup. For me it still is a hammock in the tropics with an all day long happy hour. Just drunk with joy every time when I listen to it.

[Terrycwk]

Hello, just curious if anyone has come across a MU1 + Playback Designs combo?

 

Just came home from demo-ing the Playback Designs MPS-8 and it sounds so good with just the Silent Angel Rhein z1 plus as Roon core.  Should be on another level with an MU1 lol.

[skyline]

On 1/19/2024 at 2:49 PM, stevebythebay said:

Without a well-designed and neutral "playing field" of a rack, all bets are off, apart from the room acoustics and, of course, the rest of the system components. 

 

I have an HRS SXR stand and base for my DAC.

 

I have experimented with just having the HRS  base directly onto the ground (no stand), and noticed a big drop in performance.

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Without a state of the art rack, you’re only hearing a fraction of what that component is capable of.

 

I would stick with my streamer and upgrade the rack first, before upgrading to an MU1 or MU2.

[TheAttorney]

18 hours ago, Mike123 said:

as a fellow Dave/mu1 owner   I believe your decision to stay with mu1 was the lack of crossfeed on mu2? 

 

The lack of CF is my main reason to not rush into trying the MU2. I still aim to try it one day because a single box solution is so tempting for my downsizing objectives. Just no hurry to try it. Other reasons are:

 

(a) The MU2's headphone performance is still unknown to me with real world TOTL headphones

(b) I'm still a bit miffed that Grimm does not offer an MU1->MU2 upgrade option, as I had been led to expect when I first bought my MU1 (which should reduce the cost-to-change). I can understand that, in practice, there were too many changes necessary to make an upgrade viable, but that doesn't stop me from being a bit miffed about it.

(c) With the addition of Meze Elite headphones (with angled pads) and a few detail tweaks, I'm really enjoying the overall balance of my MU1>DAVE system. None of the DAVE "analytical" presentation that puts some people off it. Of course it can be improved, but really, there's not much to complain about. It helps that the slight bass boost DAVE adds to cross-feed meshes perfectly with the Elite angled pads.

 

There is still the expensive option on the table: MU2 + Zahl HM1 headphone amp. The latter has allegedly a fantastic sound stage function for headphones, plus effective tone controls, plus powerful headphone amp. This would blow the budget and take me back to a 2-box system, but I could be tempted if it provides a true end game result for me. Have to demo both these to find out.

[aangen]

I was never under any illusion that any sort of trade in or upgrade was ever mentioned. Dewd. Chill Winston!

 

I have a friend who is jettisoning a DCS Apex stack as he prefers the Playback Designs MPS-8. It’s on my radar.

[Vincent des Champs]

After having heard most of the DACs mentioned in this topic, I can conclude there is only one DAC to rule them all: Alex Peychev’s APL’s creations from Bulgaria. I realize it is a bold statement to make, but these DACs deserve attention.

 

Currently playing with the DSD-MR SE DAC and I am floored - never experienced such a relaxation of the brain and such an ease of listening. Forget all the audiophile crap (at least if you don’t like intens puppet shows) and drown into the world of music. There is no DAC sounding close to this.

 

And yes: I did the comparison with the MU2.

[Mike123]

19 hours ago, TheAttorney said:

 

The lack of CF is my main reason to not rush into trying the MU2. I still aim to try it one day because a single box solution is so tempting for my downsizing objectives. Just no hurry to try it. Other reasons are:

 

(a) The MU2's headphone performance is still unknown to me with real world TOTL headphones

(b) I'm still a bit miffed that Grimm does not offer an MU1->MU2 upgrade option, as I had been led to expect when I first bought my MU1 (which should reduce the cost-to-change). I can understand that, in practice, there were too many changes necessary to make an upgrade viable, but that doesn't stop me from being a bit miffed about it.

(c) With the addition of Meze Elite headphones (with angled pads) and a few detail tweaks, I'm really enjoying the overall balance of my MU1>DAVE system. None of the DAVE "analytical" presentation that puts some people off it. Of course it can be improved, but really, there's not much to complain about. It helps that the slight bass boost DAVE adds to cross-feed meshes perfectly with the Elite angled pads.

 

There is still the expensive option on the table: MU2 + Zahl HM1 headphone amp. The latter has allegedly a fantastic sound stage function for headphones, plus effective tone controls, plus powerful headphone amp. This would blow the budget and take me back to a 2-box system, but I could be tempted if it provides a true end game result for me. Have to demo both these to find out.

The lack ( or none ) of an upgrade path was really surprising to me too. My dealer is open to discussion but i’m guessing that’s strictly their transaction with Grimm having nothing to do with it. Another  potential downside is that the MU1’s FPGA is likely at capacity on SQ -impacting - firmware upgrades,  thus devolving it more as a “distant third cousin” then a ‘sister” to the MU2. 
All that aside, I still think I’m coming out ahead by selling my Macintosh preamp, MU1 and the Dave. 

[kimurastanley]

These few days I was experiencing poor SQ from MU1. The music sounds congested. The soundstage is restricted and small. It doesn’t sound right. MU1 is continuously on for at least 1-2 weeks.

 

Decided to power off, unplug power cable and replug again. The sound is back to the usual expressive, open sounding i am familiar with.

 

My MU1 is on the latest firmware. not sure is it the ‘restart’ the roon server ‘reset’ the sound.

 

interesting findings.

[PYP]

7 hours ago, Vincent des Champs said:

After having heard most of the DACs mentioned in this topic, I can conclude there is only one DAC to rule them all: Alex Peychev’s APL’s creations from Bulgaria. I realize it is a bold statement to make, but these DACs deserve attention.

 

Currently playing with the DSD-MR SE DAC and I am floored - never experienced such a relaxation of the brain and such an ease of listening. Forget all the audiophile crap (at least if you don’t like intens puppet shows) and drown into the world of music. There is no DAC sounding close to this.

 

And yes: I did the comparison with the MU2.

MU2, at $18K = streamer, DAC, preamp.  What is the cost of the APL DAC = DAC?

 

Alex is a genius, nice guy, music lover and vinyl lover (his standard).  Had one of his modified Denon CD players a very long time ago.  Had the tubed output stage (with built-in volume control - he did not like preamps at the time) that he has been improving since then.  Creamy midrange that my wife especially loved.  Then I chased higher resolutions and Alex built his own brand with prices above my budget.  

[PYP]

53 minutes ago, kimurastanley said:

These few days I was experiencing poor SQ from MU1. The music sounds congested. The soundstage is restricted and small. It doesn’t sound right. MU1 is continuously on for at least 1-2 weeks.

 

Decided to power off, unplug power cable and replug again. The sound is back to the usual expressive, open sounding i am familiar with.

 

My MU1 is on the latest firmware. not sure is it the ‘restart’ the roon server ‘reset’ the sound.

 

interesting findings.

interesting.   That has not happened to my MU1 for a very long time (that is, needing power down to correct the sound).  

[Vincent des Champs]

4 hours ago, PYP said:

MU2, at $18K = streamer, DAC, preamp.  What is the cost of the APL DAC = DAC?

 

Alex is a genius, nice guy, music lover and vinyl lover (his standard).  Had one of his modified Denon CD players a very long time ago.  Had the tubed output stage (with built-in volume control - he did not like preamps at the time) that he has been improving since then.  Creamy midrange that my wife especially loved.  Then I chased higher resolutions and Alex built his own brand with prices above my budget.  

Fair enough, the two are not comparable due to different price points and yes: the APL’s performance should be better (though we all know that “more expensive = better” is not guaranteed  - but in this case it definitely is). I was happy enough to lay my hand on a pre owned unit and also happen to be able to make a straight comparison with the MU2  (as I currently have one on loan as demo). Also my digital front end should be taken in consideration as well, apples and oranges for sure.
 

Yes, the APL’s midrange is silky sweet but so are the highs and lows. Both resolution and stereo image of the MR SE are lifelike. And that is where the APL really shines: it is 101% natural sounding. After having owned ultra high detailled DACs I moved to a more natural sounding reproduction. The total absence of digital artifacts is what strikes me the most. In that regard the MU2 and APL DAC share a value both on their own level. 

 

I think that people coming from a MU1 plus Mola Mola Tambaqui/ mScaler/DAVE-combo hearing the MU2 might be a bit disappointed in the first place, because the MU2 is just a different (more honest) cookie not throwing a sh!t load of resolution in your face. Once you get used to the natural sound, there is no way back.

 

@The Computer Audiophile can you relate to above statements since you are familiar with the APL DACs too?