Grimm Audio MU1 and MU2 Music Players

[Low325]

This click. Is it clicking in the hardware (MU1 and/or DAC?)

or is it audible in the music when a song starts in Roon?

 

I can hear a click in mine, I don’t know if it’s the MMT or MU1, but it’s totally fine by me, and yes it’s around when the sample rates change. But it’s only audible for me when my amp is off or in mute as I keep the Mu1/dac (with my dsp) on all the time so music is always passing through those two devices.   
 

what drives me nuts is when the music starts and it has more than just a click, like static or or even the first few seconds of the song don’t play is where I have a problem.   But for the moment, I can isolate that to my dsp and its handshaking between the MMT and MU1. (I deal with it cause there is so much upside with the dsp, but that’s another story)

[turbofeet]

8 minutes ago, Low325 said:

This click. Is it clicking in the hardware (MU1 and/or DAC?)

or is it audible in the music when a song starts in Roon?

 

I can hear a click in mine, I don’t know if it’s the MMT or MU1, but it’s totally fine by me, and yes it’s around when the sample rates change. But it’s only audible for me when my amp is off or in mute as I keep the Mu1/dac (with my dsp) on all the time so music is always passing through those two devices.   
 

what drives me nuts is when the music starts and it has more than just a click, like static or or even the first few seconds of the song don’t play is where I have a problem.   But for the moment, I can isolate that to my dsp and its handshaking between the MMT and MU1. (I deal with it cause there is so much upside with the dsp, but that’s another story)

Yes for me I definately hear it from the headphones and it's just one "pop" - most of the time very quiet but sometimes quite loud which makes my jump. Although Bartok and MU1 can audibly click as it changes bitrate/turns relays on/off it seems to happen in time with when the Bartok changes bitrate. Of course I never hear this when streaming directly to the Bartoks internal streamer so it must be an issue with the clocks getting in sync during the split second when the relays are switching over.

As other people have mentioned the Dave does not exhibit this behaviour.

[stevebythebay]

1 hour ago, turbofeet said:

Actually it has already been sent to Grimm for a service and also an upgrade to the latest components so it should be tip top. It's the second iteration of the MU1.

I think the Bartok is probably expecting a DCS Clock but since both devices make an audible (mechanical/relay) click when the bitrate changes it does seem like a timing/performance issue to me. It's happens more when I switch/skip tracks. If I let a track finish and it switches over it's less frequent and as I say I don't think i've ever heard it in 2fs mode where th MU1 is working less hard.

I did try a little "Resync Delay" in Roon as this creates a small delay to give both devices time to resync and this maybe seemed to help a little as well.

It doesn't happen often enough to really irritate me but it can make me jump when it does happen out of the blue. 😮

Unless you have a suitable master clock in your system (e.g. Rossini) you're Bartok should not be setup to expect one and should have the Sync Mode set for Audio for the  MU1 input.  As I understand it, each input on the Bartok should be assigned its own Sync Mode.  
 

I do hear a slight audible clicking from the MU1, though a far greater one from the dCS, when bitrate changes occur.  And I use a 3000ms Resync Delay in the Roon audio device setup, as switching bitrates will always cut off the start of an album/song, at least in my system.  
 

The ticking I was hearing prior to restarting my dCS master clock was audible through the speakers, unlike the mechanical clicking from the dCS and Grimm hardware. 

[stevebythebay]

17 minutes ago, turbofeet said:

Yes for me I definately hear it from the headphones and it's just one "pop" - most of the time very quiet but sometimes quite loud which makes my jump. Although Bartok and MU1 can audibly click as it changes bitrate/turns relays on/off it seems to happen in time with when the Bartok changes bitrate. Of course I never hear this when streaming directly to the Bartoks internal streamer so it must be an issue with the clocks getting in sync during the split second when the relays are switching over.

As other people have mentioned the Dave does not exhibit this behaviour.

Have you tested changing the Buffer Mode setting in the Bartok?  If it's not On that might be a problem especially when listening through your headphones. 
 

And as I noted in an earlier post:

 

Grimm provided me with the following: "My guess is that the clicking occurs when the sample rate switches from 44.1 kHz multiples to 48 kHz multiples. These run from different oscillators and the MU1 turns the unused oscillator off because that lowers jitter. We have seen some DACs that respond to this kind of sample rate switch with a soft click. Most respond clickless."

[Low325]

4 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

Unless you have a suitable master clock in your system (e.g. Rossini) you're Bartok should not be setup to expect one and should have the Sync Mode set for Audio for the  MU1 input.  As I understand it, each input on the Bartok should be assigned its own Sync Mode.  
 

I do hear a slight audible clicking from the MU1, though a far greater one from the dCS, when bitrate changes occur.  And I use a 3000ms Resync Delay in the Roon audio device setup, as switching bitrates will always cut off the start of an album/song, at least in my system.  
 

The ticking I was hearing prior to restarting my dCS master clock was audible through the speakers, unlike the mechanical clicking from the dCS and Grimm hardware. 

I don’t get any audible interruption when the music starts no matter the bit rate changes with the MMT and MU1.

 

Volume controls are all set to Fixed in Roon.
Direct in the MMT and the same for MU1. Luckily gain control is set at my amp. 

[stevebythebay]

2 minutes ago, Low325 said:

I don’t get any audible interruption when the music starts no matter the bit rate changes with the MMT and MU1.

 

Volume controls are all set to Fixed in Roon.
Direct in the MMT and the same for MU1. Luckily gain control is set at my amp. 

Maybe the BACCH-SSP “adio” is affecting what you’re “not” hearing. 

[turbofeet]

20 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

Have you tested changing the Buffer Mode setting in the Bartok?  If it's not On that might be a problem especially when listening through your headphones. 
 

And as I noted in an earlier post:

 

Grimm provided me with the following: "My guess is that the clicking occurs when the sample rate switches from 44.1 kHz multiples to 48 kHz multiples. These run from different oscillators and the MU1 turns the unused oscillator off because that lowers jitter. We have seen some DACs that respond to this kind of sample rate switch with a soft click. Most respond clickless."

I have enabled the buffering setting. It was off. So far so good after skipping about 50 tracks of varying bitrates. Lol I can't believe that appeared to be it as I thought that setting was more to do with USB audio syncing with a PC.

 

Another advantage of that is that it doesn't seem to be skipping the first second of the next track while it syncs. Roon resync is off again.

 

Thanks for the suggestion 

[stevebythebay]

2 minutes ago, turbofeet said:

I have enabled the buffering setting. It was off. So far so good after skipping about 50 tracks of varying bitrates. Lol I can't believe that appeared to be it as I thought that setting was more to do with USB audio syncing with a PC.

 

Another advantage of that is that it doesn't seem to be skipping the first second of the next track while it syncs. Roon resync is off again.

 

Thanks for the suggestion 

Glad I was able to point the way.  I'd seen the attached and thought it might help:

Even though my dealer had suggested that turning it off would improve SQ, yet another member of dCS support recommended leaving the setting on.  So it goes...

 

[Low325]

1 hour ago, stevebythebay said:

Maybe the BACCH-SSP “adio” is affecting what you’re “not” hearing. 

When i meant i don’t hear audible interruptions is when the adio is completely out of the picture. For example from the MU1 > AES/EBU > MMT. This was also pre dsp. 

 

With the dsp in it, have it hooked up as:

MU1 > SPDIF > adio > SPDIF > MMT. 
this handshake is not as smooth and when the bit rates change, the music is interrupted at the beginning. No harm no foul.  Love the music. 

[aangen]

Listen for a week using the adio as an endpoint. That is my preference.

[PYP]

1 hour ago, aangen said:

Listen for a week using the adio as an endpoint. That is my preference.

is the chain MU1 > Adio > preamp > amp?

[aangen]

On 2/23/2024 at 11:43 PM, PYP said:

is the chain MU1 > Adio > preamp > amp?

At my house it is. The adio has an issue. It has problems letting the clock on the Grimm take over. Eelco chuckled and said it isn’t a fault of the MU1. He believes it is a weakness on the device the MU1 is connected to. I believe he is correct. Edgar believes all the adio needs is an ordinary Roon server using the adio as an endpoint. I am sad to say when I compare using my beloved MU1 feeding the adio via SPDIF to using it as a Roon server only and the adio as an endpoint, I can’t perceive any difference. When I do the former I run into issues, pauses between tracks, tracks starting six seconds in, all sorts of horrors. When I do the server/endpoint setup I have zero issues. They sound identical with a possibility that the MU1, properly used, might be better, but I wouldn’t think a double blind test would go well.

 

This is an issue with the adio. Theoretica Applied Physics is unlikely to address it anytime soon. The just released a major update, Room Correction Software has been added that uses the same in ear microphones used to make crosstalk cancellation filters be used for Room Correction. Head tracking is applied to both. It is a new place my system has leaped to. It is absolutely brilliant! Stick a fork in my system, it’s done.

 

 I have an MU2 coming. When it arrives I’ll use the MU1 as a server, adio as an endpoint, and the MU2 as a DAC. Should be fun.
 

Kids, try not to badmouth BACCH until you try it. It isn’t subtle. There is a lot to like, and a lot of endless tweaking to forget about.

 

I should mention that I have both the BACCH-SP adio and the less expensive BACCH4Mac setup. Had to know both. Fun.

[Eelco Grimm]

@aangen wrote: "I have an MU2 coming. When it arrives I’ll use the MU1 as a server, adio as an endpoint, and the MU2 as a DAC."

 

You can just as well use the MU2 as your server. That also makes it simple to switch between listening via the Adio and direct from the MU2 Roon server.

 

Best regards,
Eelco Grimm

[Low325]

46 minutes ago, Eelco Grimm said:

@aangen wrote: "I have an MU2 coming. When it arrives I’ll use the MU1 as a server, adio as an endpoint, and the MU2 as a DAC."

 

You can just as well use the MU2 as your server. That also makes it simple to switch between listening via the Adio and direct from the MU2 Roon server.

 

Best regards,
Eelco Grimm

Hi Eelco,

Can a user (yours truly) use an M2 > SPDIF out  > adio  or other DSP > SPDIF out  to SPDIF in to the MU2 and still get all the benefits of a MU2 DAC working optimally?

[Vincent des Champs]

8 hours ago, Low325 said:

Hi Eelco,

Can a user (yours truly) use an M2 > SPDIF out  > adio  or other DSP > SPDIF out  to SPDIF in to the MU2 and still get all the benefits of a MU2 DAC working optimally?

See Grimm Audio website for in/outputs:

The only MU2 outputs are analog so the first step in your chain will not be possible (MU2 spdif out to DSP). Question: what is the use of this step? The MU2 can be used as Roon core -as suggested by Eelco- and of course the DSP must be a Roon endpoint to make the rest of your idea work.

[Eelco Grimm]

@Low325 asked "Can a user (yours truly) use an M2 > SPDIF out  > adio  or other DSP > SPDIF out  to SPDIF in to the MU2 and still get all the benefits of a MU2 DAC working optimally?"

 

There are no S/PDIF digital outputs on the MU2, so you cannot make a classic digital loop for a Trinnov or Adio. You can however use the Roon server of the MU2 to play to for instance the Roon End Point in an Adio and then use the MU2 as a DAC for the digital output signal of the Adio - which is what I suggested.

[Davidny]

Bill Parish addresses the MU2 versus Tambaqui question 

 

[Low325]

I totally had a brain fart on the part about the SPDIF out on the MU2. 
 

thanks for the recommendation Eelco.  Still look forward to listening to one. 

[Lyons77]

Very strange, rambling non-review from Bill at GTT, mostly talking about AURALiC, deGritter, total system quality, cable quality.   There is about 20 seconds (at 15 minutes in) where he actually talks about the comparison - I'll save you 20 minutes. He says the MU1/MMT has a bigger, deeper sound stage, more information, more dynamics and liveliness compared to MU2.

 

It kind of sounds like he is overwhelmed by people wanting to trade in their MU1/MMT for a MU2, and he doesn't have MU2 stock to handle the trade-ins. The MU1/MMT might be better, but I wish he had spent the 20 minutes actually talking about the sound quality of the MU1/MMT and MU2. 

[PYP]

22 minutes ago, Lyons77 said:

Very strange, rambling non-review from Bill at GTT, mostly talking about AURALiC, deGritter, total system quality, cable quality.   There is about 20 seconds (at 15 minutes in) where he actually talks about the comparison - I'll save you 20 minutes. He says the MU1/MMT has a bigger, deeper sound stage, more information, more dynamics and liveliness compared to MU2.

 

It kind of sounds like he is overwhelmed by people wanting to trade in their MU1/MMT for a MU2, and he doesn't have MU2 stock to handle the trade-ins. The MU1/MMT might be better, but I wish he had spent the 20 minutes actually talking about the sound quality of the MU1/MMT and MU2. 

Had you ordered an MU2?  If so, do you know when you will receive it?

[ls13]

Pretty classic "pace" for one of Bill's videos. I've worked with him for a number of years. I respect him. I feel he prefers pretty highly resolving systems, thus his history of Auralic and YG speakers. I do agree with most of what he is saying, although I feel "better" is more relative.  As I posted earlier in this thread, I recently had the chance to hear a Mu2 vs Mu1/MMT in my system. I would agree the with the Mu1/MMT the soundstage is larger in height and width. I thought the Mu2 had reasonable depth. The Mu1/MMT emphasizes some higher frequencies more that the Mu2. If you have a bright system that you wish to tone down, the Mu2 might be the best match. I also felt the Mu2 worked better with a true pre in the chain. 

I think the decision might be a personal and system based one more than an absolute. For my ears and system matching, the Mu1/MMT was the better route, although YMMV. Knowing Bill's tastes in sound, I would clearly predict he would prefer the Mu1/MMT.

My real go to guy for reviews is Christian Punter in Hifi Advice. I almost always agree with him. He also looked at the comparision.

[turbofeet]

23 minutes ago, Lyons77 said:

Very strange, rambling non-review from Bill at GTT, mostly talking about AURALiC, deGritter, total system quality, cable quality.   There is about 20 seconds (at 15 minutes in) where he actually talks about the comparison - I'll save you 20 minutes. He says the MU1/MMT has a bigger, deeper sound stage, more information, more dynamics and liveliness compared to MU2.

 

It kind of sounds like he is overwhelmed by people wanting to trade in their MU1/MMT for a MU2, and he doesn't have MU2 stock to handle the trade-ins. The MU1/MMT might be better, but I wish he had spent the 20 minutes actually talking about the sound quality of the MU1/MMT and MU2. 

I think he did stray a bit off topic yes discussing the differences between 1 box vs. multiple boxes and the value of this.

I would love to a comparison of the MU1 with Bartok, MMT and Dave all in one review..and then maybe vs MU2.

That would be too much for any reviewer though. I'd imagine they all sound magnificent in their own ways and it's simply personal preference.

I did audition Dave, Bartok (I already had one) and the MMT on the same day and I preferred the Bartok over the MMT only because of it's fuller sound. MMT was more "airy" - that's the best way I can explain it. It was quite beautiful sounding though.

However this was without the MU1 as the source and only the Dave was set up that way. Dave + MU1 easily bested the Bartok and MMT using their own internal streamers (to my ears). I really wish I had connected the MU1 to the MMT and Bartok at that point for a true comparison. Once my local dealers gets an MU2 in I may arrange another visit to try and compare all of this but I really think it comes down to synergy and personal preference.

 

Hans Beekhuyzen describes the MU1 + Dave vs. MU2 more as a refinement rather than something which makes that combo obsolete.

Auditioning is the only way to tell but i'm happy to hear more opinions emerging on this. Either way for Grimm's first DAC to be comparable to these monster DACs is quite an achievement.
 

[PYP]

1 hour ago, ls13 said:

Pretty classic "pace" for one of Bill's videos. I've worked with him for a number of years. I respect him. I feel he prefers pretty highly resolving systems, thus his history of Auralic and YG speakers. I do agree with most of what he is saying, although I feel "better" is more relative.  As I posted earlier in this thread, I recently had the chance to hear a Mu2 vs Mu1/MMT in my system. I would agree the with the Mu1/MMT the soundstage is larger in height and width. I thought the Mu2 had reasonable depth. The Mu1/MMT emphasizes some higher frequencies more that the Mu2. If you have a bright system that you wish to tone down, the Mu2 might be the best match. I also felt the Mu2 worked better with a true pre in the chain. 

I think the decision might be a personal and system based one more than an absolute. For my ears and system matching, the Mu1/MMT was the better route, although YMMV. Knowing Bill's tastes in sound, I would clearly predict he would prefer the Mu1/MMT.

My real go to guy for reviews is Christian Punter in Hifi Advice. I almost always agree with him. He also looked at the comparision.

Your post and others has me wondering about choosing a preamp for my current setup.  Using the Tambaqui into the MM amps provides plenty of dynamics for my tastes, but your excellent preamp comparison and Christian Punter's review (he is careful and objective listener) of preamps has me wondering about the benefits of adding a preamp.   

 

For me, any addition that improves timbre and makes the gear further disappear would be welcome.  If you don't mind me asking, how did the MU2 compare with the MU1+MMT in those areas?  And do you think a well-matched preamp would increase those?  

[ls13]

3 hours ago, PYP said:

Your post and others has me wondering about choosing a preamp for my current setup.  Using the Tambaqui into the MM amps provides plenty of dynamics for my tastes, but your excellent preamp comparison and Christian Punter's review (he is careful and objective listener) of preamps has me wondering about the benefits of adding a preamp.   

 

For me, any addition that improves timbre and makes the gear further disappear would be welcome.  If you don't mind me asking, how did the MU2 compare with the MU1+MMT in those areas?  And do you think a well-matched preamp would increase those?  

Again, the Mu2 has excellent timbre. One has to requilibrate going from the MMT, as there is significantly less high frequency in the Mu2. I didn't care for the The Mu2's soundstage when feeding directly into my amp, but the timbre sounded good, and it had significantly more bass than the MMT driving the amp directly. The overall sound was dependent on the preamp. In one case, using a warmer pre, the Mu2 lacked air and imaging, and sounded a bit too dull. I think one just has to try it in their system. 

[Lyons77]

12 hours ago, PYP said:

Had you ordered an MU2?  If so, do you know when you will receive it?

Yep, still waiting - the end of the month in theory, but I'm not holding my breath.  

 

10 hours ago, PYP said:

Your post and others has me wondering about choosing a preamp for my current setup.  

I'm wondering the same thing - ls13 had a very nice thread on WBF comparing different preamps in his system.   I've got a list of preamps I'd like to try, but actually getting them here is a challenge.  I'm currently running the Playback Design variable volume control via XLR interconnects to AGD Duet Class D amps and YG Hailey 2.2. Is sounds great, but could it sound better?