Grimm Audio MU1 and MU2 Music Players

[FredM]

7 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Thought I’d add comments on the MU1 specifically in combination with the Grimm UC1.  I recently purchased a MU1 and in the subsequent process of downsizing some of my studio gear decided to add a UC1 to replace a high channel count adda audio interface and also replace a 2 channel system Waversa WDac3C streaming dac.  The UC1 will do double duty for 2 channel listening and small recording/audio projects.  The mu1 definitely lives up to its billing and took the WDac3C to greater levels.  The combination was quite good.  I was hoping the Grimm Audio combination would be good and I’m not disappointed.  Replacing the WDac3C with the UC1 brought things up to a much higher level overall…bringing out more of the MU1 benefits/traits.  I’m slaving the UC1 clock to the AES output from the MU1 in 4fs mode with a no longer available Apogee Wide Eye AES digital cable.  My initial assessment is clocking to the mu1 output yields a more natural open or spacious sound than clocking from the uc1 internal master clock.  The flexibility of the uc1 is nice.  Without going into a reviewer level of detail, at least in my system it’s a great combination.  A few months ago I auditioned an Allnic D10000 dac which was wonderful but I was hesitant to spend so much on a dac given the ever evolving digital device landscape.  Given that and my budget, I’m glad I passed on the Allnic as the UC1 provides a lot of the good things I remember from the Allnic dac.   Not a real comparison given the passing of time and system differences but enough to say I’m in the right ballpark.  I don’t have the ability to compare the MU1/UC1 combination with the MU2 (preamp capability aside since I have an Integrated amp) but then my use case justifies a separate dac plus the ADC capability.  That said, it would definitely be an interesting direct comparison.  Anyway, fwiw I thought I’d share this here.  Glad to provide more information or thoughts on my experience with this combination so far.  

Thanks for sharing your experience, have fun 👍

[yellowblue]

Got my MU1 back after repair (a cable was broken so I couldn´t update). Justin gave the MU1 a complete overhaul for free. Great customer service! 

[Ronnie112]

Finally received my set of Auva's yesterday. Coincidentally the same day another platform arrived with my dealer, a Custom Design iRAP TT. So Grimm MU2 foundation shootout! With 3 options under the Grimm and off course the 'vanilla option' of no additional stuff, you've got options to choose from. As soon as you start combining, you'll end up tinkering to the 3rd power  

 

Won't go into length. But for me the Auva's don't bring what I expected. In combination with an inert platform like the iRAP it was just plain awful, like listening through a drainpipe (upside down they look like a drain pipe filled with rubber, maybe that is why). A attribute that I kept hearing to a lesser extend when on their own, which was much better by the way. Together with the wobbly effect of placing the Grimm on anything but its own feet, for me a return to sender.

 

The wonderplank (WonderWood

underboard is the official name) together with the iRAP were just beautiful and truly synergistic with each other. So closing this chapter. But have to admit, it is a new area for me and have learned 2 new things:

1) foundations have a considerable impact

2) the feet supplied under the Grimn make a stable and integral part of its design. For me there is no going around them.

[PYP]

7 hours ago, Ronnie112 said:

Finally received my set of Auva's yesterday. Coincidentally the same day another platform arrived with my dealer, a Custom Design iRAP TT. So Grimm MU2 foundation shootout! With 3 options under the Grimm and off course the 'vanilla option' of no additional stuff, you've got options to choose from. As soon as you start combining, you'll end up tinkering to the 3rd power  

 

Won't go into length. But for me the Auva's don't bring what I expected. In combination with an inert platform like the iRAP it was just plain awful, like listening through a drainpipe (upside down they look like a drain pipe filled with rubber, maybe that is why). A attribute that I kept hearing to a lesser extend when on their own, which was much better by the way. Together with the wobbly effect of placing the Grimm on anything but its own feet, for me a return to sender.

 

The wonderplank (WonderWood

underboard is the official name) together with the iRAP were just beautiful and truly synergistic with each other. So closing this chapter. But have to admit, it is a new area for me and have learned 2 new things:

1) foundations have a considerable impact

2) the feet supplied under the Grimn make a stable and integral part of its design. For me there is no going around them.

interesting comparison.  I have found that DACs are sensitive to footers and power cords.  Those iRaps look interesting.  Obviously, you like the combination.  Was the iRAP without the WonderWood a close second or was there a significant difference using both?

 

With the MU1, after playing with placement of the Auvas (including trying three instead of four, which didn't work well), they did sound muddy at first.   This quality was resolved after two weeks without shifting their placement.  

[Ronnie112]

9 minutes ago, PYP said:

interesting comparison.  I have found that DACs are sensitive to footers and power cords.  Those iRaps look interesting.  Obviously, you like the combination.  Was the iRAP without the WonderWood a close second or was there a significant difference using both?

 

With the MU1, after playing with placement of the Auvas (including trying three instead of four, which didn't work well), they did sound muddy at first.   This quality was resolved after two weeks without shifting their placement.  

Was interesting to do and surprising to find the differences were so impactful. On the wonderwood things sounded more organic and spacious without the smear you sometimes get with when using wood. The iRAP sounded slightly so fresher and fleshed out offering a bit more live presence. On it's own not so much close 2nd, just offering a different lens. Combining both worked well offering best of both. The Auva's were much like the iRAP, very spacious and lively (just a bit hollow-ish), but only when used on solid wood, not in combination with another isolating platform where it went a bit overboard. And I desire to further decouple from the cabinet. 

 

Wonder where you eventually placed your Auva's. And are you sure the difference after 2 weeks is on the Auva's and not you, getting used to their attributes?

[PYP]

16 minutes ago, Ronnie112 said:

Wonder where you eventually placed your Auva's. And are you sure the difference after 2 weeks is on the Auva's and not you, getting used to their attributes?

The two under the back of the MU1 are as far back as I could get them without overhang of the chassis.  The fancy power cord adds weight there.  Overall stability was then fine.  

 

I'm not sure what role mental settling-in contributed vs. the footers themselves, but I thought for the entire two weeks that they simply weren't transparent enough.  At that point, I was nearly convinced they would go back.  Then I noticed a slight change, with the plumped up frequencies smoothing out.  Having experienced that with other tweaks, I started to think they might work out.  One day, everything sounded balanced.  My motto is:  placebos are great as long as they continue to work.  

 

I do think part of the final sound depends upon the surface itself, of course.  In my case, it is a wood shelf (non-audiophile) floating on vibration footers that are rubber/cork/rubber.  I don't think those work well but they are inaccessible without a huge amount of work so they are staying.  The Auva footers are a workaround for that issue.   The whole non-audiophile-approved cabinet rests on Soundeck squares which seem to use a similar approach to the iRAP (steel top and bottom with polymer in between).  

[Ronnie112]

Interesting read, thanks. Auva's seem a great 'fix', especially for non audiophile cabinets and furniture like ours.

 

I will place the iRAP under my amp, see if the decoupling has the same positive effect there. And order a custom size XL iRAP (6+1mm steel) with a custom size WonderPlank for under the MU2, replacing the current shelf and thus so decoupling the MU2 from the cabinet.  And 2 more for under my switch and new DC blocker, as they seem to benefit both from the same wonder(ful) plank.  

[stevebythebay]

Without a well-designed and neutral "playing field" of a rack, all bets are off, apart from the room acoustics and, of course, the rest of the system components.  In my case, installing a set of HRS racks about a decade ago, I'd not felt compelled to consider footers or any further vibration mitigation.  However in 2022, in a discussion with Michael Latvis of HRS, he encouraged me to try out a set of his Votes footers under my DAC.  He'd designed these and other tech specifically, though not exclusively, to work with his racks.  And he'd tested the dCS components and found the DAC had the most to gain in further vibration "treatment".  Seems in general that DACs, source devices, and anything with reliance on their internal clocks, often benefit when footers and even damping plates are used. 
 

When other members of this forum recommended using the AUVA footers for the MU1, I jumped in. And I was not disappointed.  And then I thought: I wonder if the same Vortex footers I'd been using under my DAC might offer even better sonic performance than the AUVA's.  And then, coincidentally, I happened on a review by Christian Punter from last summer.  He'd tested out a wide array of HRS gear with his array of in-house components which happen to include the MU1. His positive take on the Vortex footers got me to place an order.  Now that I've been using these under the MU1, they've proven to be a much better alternative to the AUVA's.  Addmitedy at a far higher cost.  
 

But I've come to the conclusion that home audio systems and their environs comprise some very disticnt domains of expertise.  One is certainly this whole matter of component isolation from airborne and structural vibrations. Of course this has been a problem from the early days of vinyl playback and tube "microphonic" effects.

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

Michael Latvis of HRS

Not to sidetrack this discussion, but I really like Mike and HRS. Good people and great products. 

[BigAlMc]

Question for MU1 and Tambaqui owners.

 

Last year I treated myself to the MMT and I'm delighted with it as a fantastic DAC.

 

I should call it job done but you know how this hobby is 😁

 

I'm planning on replacing my Innuos Zenith SE with an MU1 but am balking at the £12k UK price and hoping to pick up a pre-loved or ex-demo unit to avoid spending an amount that would see her finally divorce me for having lost my mind 😜

 

I've spent last couple days rereading all 58 pages of this thread and the 5 pages on WBF.

 

AES is clearly needed (probably Sablon as I'm a big fan of Mark's work).

 

I can therefore sell my USB kit. Phoenix, 2 x Sablon Evo and a Network Accoustics Muon USB. And obviously the Zenith SE. So these immediately help take the sting out of the eye watering price of the MU1.

 

What's less clear and from what I've read last couple days has less consensus is the LAN improvements impact.

 

I currently have a Sonore OM delivering fibre into an ER powered by an SR4T. This is kinda non-optional because the fibre is transporting the signal a distance not really viable for ethernet.

 

More debatable are the rest of the LAN chain: 

 

Sablon LAN into PhoenixNet into Muon Pro Streaming system (into MMT).

 

When I bought the Muon Pro Streaming system I compared the following combos between ER and DAC:

 

1. Sablon LAN only

2. Muon only

3. LAN - PhoenixNet - Sablon LAN

4. Sablon LAN - PhoenixNet - Muon

 

I concluded at the time the PhoenixNet added a great deal. And the Muon added a great deal. Combined was slightly better but very marginally so. To be honest I could and arguably should have chosen either the PhoenixNet or the Muon as each delivered 90% of the improvement but this hobby being what it is I obviously kept both despite the combo being ever so slightly better.

 

The MU1 being more immune to Network vagaries has me wondering whether I could dispense with some or all of the above.

 

From a simplicity perspective the Muon Pro going from ER into the MU1 really appeals and I could then sell the PhoenixNet and Sablon LAN to further lessen the pain of the MU1 purchase.

 

I'm therefore wondering about the experiences of MU1 and MMT owners with either the PhoenixNet or Muon and any advice around the LAN side of things?

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

[PYP]

12 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

Question for MU1 and Tambaqui owners.

 

Last year I treated myself to the MMT and I'm delighted with it as a fantastic DAC.

 

I should call it job done but you know how this hobby is 😁

 

I'm planning on replacing my Innuos Zenith SE with an MU1 but am balking at the £12k UK price and hoping to pick up a pre-loved or ex-demo unit to avoid spending an amount that would see her finally divorce me for having lost my mind 😜

 

I've spent last couple days rereading all 58 pages of this thread and the 5 pages on WBF.

 

AES is clearly needed (probably Sablon as I'm a big fan of Mark's work).

 

I can therefore sell my USB kit. Phoenix, 2 x Sablon Evo and a Network Accoustics Muon USB. And obviously the Zenith SE. So these immediately help take the sting out of the eye watering price of the MU1.

 

What's less clear and from what I've read last couple days has less consensus is the LAN improvements impact.

 

I currently have a Sonore OM delivering fibre into an ER powered by an SR4T. This is kinda non-optional because the fibre is transporting the signal a distance not really viable for ethernet.

 

More debatable are the rest of the LAN chain: 

 

Sablon LAN into PhoenixNet into Muon Pro Streaming system (into MMT).

 

When I bought the Muon Pro Streaming system I compared the following combos between ER and DAC:

 

1. Sablon LAN only

2. Muon only

3. LAN - PhoenixNet - Sablon LAN

4. Sablon LAN - PhoenixNet - Muon

 

I concluded at the time the PhoenixNet added a great deal. And the Muon added a great deal. Combined was slightly better but very marginally so. To be honest I could and arguably should have chosen either the PhoenixNet or the Muon as each delivered 90% of the improvement but this hobby being what it is I obviously kept both despite the combo being ever so slightly better.

 

The MU1 being more immune to Network vagaries has me wondering whether I could dispense with some or all of the above.

 

From a simplicity perspective the Muon Pro going from ER into the MU1 really appeals and I could then sell the PhoenixNet and Sablon LAN to further lessen the pain of the MU1 purchase.

 

I'm therefore wondering about the experiences of MU1 and MMT owners with either the PhoenixNet or Muon and any advice around the LAN side of things?

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

The Muon Pro did improve the MU1's performance in my setup.  Originally, I used a patch cable (I'm a fan of plastic connectors) into the MP with its attached LAN cable connected to the MU1.  Recently, I tried a fancy Kubala-Sosna LAN cable AFTER the MP so that the KS cable fed the MU1.  Surprisingly (to me), this was much richer sounding even though the current experiment uses an inexpensive connector for the MP/KS cable interface.   Too many variables to predict performance in your setup, however.

 

It is interesting that the PhoenixNET is a positive contributor but not much more than the MP alone.  I have been reading about the PhoenixNET and will probably demo it.  But first I will listen to the MU2 just to make my life more difficult.  🙃

[Mike123]

IMHO ,the PhoenixNet delivers fantastic results. My migration path was the same as the one you are considering. 

[BigAlMc]

Thanks @PYP and @Mike123

 

I really appreciate the feedback and experience.

 

As I suspected I'm gonna have to experiment and try different combos to see what's best when I get around to pulling the trigger on the MU1.

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

 

[PYP]

3 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

Thanks @PYP and @Mike123

 

I really appreciate the feedback and experience.

 

As I suspected I'm gonna have to experiment and try different combos to see what's best when I get around to pulling the trigger on the MU1.

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

 

It will be interesting to read about your experiments.  You have already done quite a lot upstream of where the MU1 would go.  Of course, these ethernet cleaners are not an advanced DDC.  I hope you will hear what I do with the MU1 + MMT.  Great combination.  The AES cable does change the flavor.  

 

I'm sure your wife understands that one major piece of new equipment each year is similar to a super-vitamin that keeps you fit.  She must see beyond and beneath your audiophile exterior or she would have left you a long time ago.  Such a crazy hobby!

[BigAlMc]

15 minutes ago, PYP said:

I'm sure your wife understands that one major piece of new equipment each year is similar to a super-vitamin that keeps you fit.

 

Brilliant! I love it 😂

 

In fairness she doesn't complain and after a good few years of tumultuous change I've settled down last few years and am targeting one major change per year as you alluded to. The Muon broke this aspiration last year as I invested in it as well as the Tambaqui. But otherwise I've been fairly well behaved and am focused on enjoying the music.

 

I've been coveting the MU1 since early last year when I was researching the MMT. Given I can sell stuff and simplify my setup it's not that bad. And we never discuss prices fortunately. But basically I thought I was nuts spending £7k on the SE back in 2017 and going into five figures seems a bridge too far. Hence hoping to pick one up on the secondary market as figure many will be upgrading to the MU2. But we'll see I guess.

 

A 2024 super-vitamin boost is in the pipeline one way or another 😁

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

[Fourlegs]

1 hour ago, BigAlMc said:

The MU1 being more immune to Network vagaries has me wondering whether I could dispense with some or all of the above.

When I had the MU1 in my system I tried it with and without the PhoenixNET and the Muon Pro. In the end I preferred the PhoenixNET with it and to the extent that I would never consider dispensing with the PhoenixNET in my system whilst I had the MU1 because it helped so much with the sound quality. 

[BigAlMc]

1 hour ago, Fourlegs said:

When I had the MU1 in my system I tried it with and without the PhoenixNET and the Muon Pro. In the end I preferred the PhoenixNET with it and to the extent that I would never consider dispensing with the PhoenixNET in my system whilst I had the MU1 because it helped so much with the sound quality. 

 

Thanks @Fourlegs,

 

That's very interesting even if it's not the answer I'm looking for in terms of reducing the box count.

 

Will defo have to experiment a bit and see what works best in my system. But your direct experience with both is perfect as a data point for my question.

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

 

[PYP]

1 hour ago, Fourlegs said:

When I had the MU1 in my system I tried it with and without the PhoenixNET and the Muon Pro. In the end I preferred the PhoenixNET with it and to the extent that I would never consider dispensing with the PhoenixNET in my system whilst I had the MU1 because it helped so much with the sound quality. 

did the Muon Pro add to the benefits of the PhoenixNET?  I'm interested because I'm using the Muon Pro with the MU1 and enjoying music all the time.   At least one user feeds his PhoenixNET with the Muon Pro and enjoys that combination.  

[pvanosta]

4 hours ago, Fourlegs said:

When I had the MU1 in my system I tried it with and without the PhoenixNET and the Muon Pro. In the end I preferred the PhoenixNET with it and to the extent that I would never consider dispensing with the PhoenixNET in my system whilst I had the MU1 because it helped so much with the sound quality. 

Quick question: where did you position the PhoenixNET with regards to the MU1? Outbound traffic to the dac, or inbound traffic to the MU1 (if using a different Roon core or external has storage), or both?

[skatbelt]

6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

I'm therefore wondering about the experiences of MU1 and MMT owners with either the PhoenixNet or Muon and any advice around the LAN side of things?

 

 

An alternative: sell the MMT while it still has a good resale value and buy an MU2. Here in the Netherlands I see a trend of DAVE/MU1 and MMT/MU1 combinations for sale with the argument of purchasing the MU2.

[PYP]

6 minutes ago, skatbelt said:

 

An alternative: sell the MMT while it still has a good resale value and buy an MU2. Here in the Netherlands I see a trend of DAVE/MU1 and MMT/MU1 combinations for sale with the argument of purchasing the MU2.

Is their reason for selling that they have heard the MU2 or are they buying because of early reviews and hoping it fits their preferences?

[skatbelt]

16 minutes ago, PYP said:

Is their reason for selling that they have heard the MU2 or are they buying because of early reviews and hoping it fits their preferences?

The honest answer is that I don't know. Personally, I would never do it without first hearing the MU2 in my own system.

[Kirkland]

Personally, I have sold off a Chord/Innuos stack (seven components) in exchange for one MU2. I have no idea when the MU2 will arrive.

 

I did hang onto to a Feliks Envy and a few other useful components. I was ready to simplify my headphone setup. 

[Ronnie112]

6 hours ago, Kirkland said:

Personally, I have sold off a Chord/Innuos stack (seven components) in exchange for one MU2. I have no idea when the MU2 will arrive.

 

I did hang onto to a Feliks Envy and a few other useful components. I was ready to simplify my headphone setup. 

From 7 to 1 component. That is some simplification! Don't think you will regret it one second, enjoy!

[yellowblue]

@BigAIMc

 

As you know I went from Innous Zenith SE with Chord Dave/MScaler, Phoenix USB to MU1 and Tambaqui and really enjoy my new chain (sometimes I can miss the special flavour the SE had, but overall the MU1 is much better). I kept my PhoenixNet because I think it sounds a little better with it than without it in my chain.   

If you buy an older model without S/PDIF be carefull if it hasn´t yet got an overhaul of Grimm. As I wrote earlier I got problems two times with my older 2-series model but Grimm solved it with their great customer service.