Differences in sound: DAC vs. DAC + Pre-amplifier

[The Computer Audiophile]

On 1/23/2020 at 5:26 PM, SoundSparks said:

Thank you very kindly, dear experts!

Like many of us in this wonderful hobby, I am after the SOUND, recreating the life-like atmosphere of concert hall in my listening space...

• Would you, dear experts, consider MATRIX Audio X-SABRE PRO (MQA) DAC to represent a good choice (my budget is only up to about 2K): it is hard for me to "decipher" the manual to understand if the analogue output stage, digital volume control, PSU, and other elements employed are of acceptable quality...
• And another silly question: what separate pre-amplifier would be required in order to at least correspond to the specs of this DAC (SNR >-129dB 20Hz-20kHz A-Weighting and THD+N <0.00030% at 20Hz-20kHz A-Weighting)?
• Just found another possible contender: TOPPING D90 DAC. What do you think of this budget-friendly option, please?
• Alternatives?

Please chime in!

 

@JoshM just reviewed the Matrix DAC you’re interested in. 
 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

On 2/5/2020 at 1:19 PM, plissken said:

Preamps can obviously color the sound. They can't however improve the fidelity of the inputs.

Technically a preamp could improve the signal to noise ratio with a powerful output stage, correct?
 

That’s a serious question, no snark. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

52 minutes ago, STC said:

No. There is no perfect preamp. 

Did someone suggest there was a perfect preamp?

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, Matias said:

I don't think that is possible, because that would mean only the signal gets amplified and the noise floor does not, which is not possible. Unfortunately the best thing an analog preamp can do it not to raise the noise floor further, or prevent adding more distortion (if that is what one wants, thinking of people looking into deliberately adding distortion = tubes), while hopefully adding more current output and lower impedance.

 

But then there are reviewers who prefer adding preamps after their dCS DACs, which have the lowest output impedance I have seen, so in theory preamps should not be necessary. I guess some people just like the sound of adding a little harmonics. Nothing wrong with that.

That doesn’t make sense to me. Setting the output of my DAC to 6 volts raises the signal to noise. It should do similar with a preamp. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, Matias said:

Don't ask me, it is what I read on reviews. Again maybe those reviewers prefer the "flavor" that their preamps add? I don't know.

Understood :~)

[The Computer Audiophile]

A preamp definitely enables one to make changes upstream without too much worry. I guess one could look at it as a convenience over quality thing as well. A well matched DAC and amp just can't be beat by placing a third component in the middle. I say "well matched" and I really mean it. Not all DACs drive all amps well. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, CG said:

you'll get "About 3,140,000 results".

Wait, logged-in or not?

 

:~)

[The Computer Audiophile]

I’ve had some strange issues lately that we’re resolved by putting a preamp between the DAC and amp. I don’t like that this was the resolution, but it was. For example, one DAC had very audible pops when using specific filter settings and switching sample rates. These were inaudible when using a preamp. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, Abtr said:

Is this apparently digital distortion dependent on the DAC's volume control? Do you have DAC side attenuation disabled or at max volume when using the preamp?

It’s frustrating to me because analog isn’t my specialty. I wish I understood what was going on. 
 

yes, the DAC was set to max digital volume with a preamp. I’m unsure if the pops would’ve been present if set to max volume without a preamp. Don’t have the guts to try that one. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, barrows said:

Chris, that sounds like DC problem at the DAC output.  If the DAC exhibits DC problems like this, a preamp will sometimes eliminate them before they get to the AMP, as the preamp will have DC correction of some type (servo circuit, I believe int he Constellation gear).  Sometimes DACs will have a DC spike in between locking... a properly designed DAC "should" be muting its output to avoid this in between locking to new sample rates.  I have seen this in DIY DACs a bit, where we might not have the most sophisticated control software.  Raising the buffering in Roon can sometimes help this.

Of course, for a DAC designed to connect to an amplifier directly this would be considered a fault of the DAC design and the manufacturer should address it.

And that folks, is why Barrows gets the big bucks :~)

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, Abtr said:

Does the DAC have a digital volume control? 

Yes. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

19 minutes ago, Abtr said:

What happens if you lower the DAC side volume when using the preamp?

Unfortunately I’ll never know. I sent the DAC back a while ago. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, barrows said:

I am curious, where did you get the information that the X-1 has an LeedH volume control implementation?

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, mevdinc said:

Read the review over at 6moons, I didn't post the link, as I wasn't sure if it was against form rules.
From what I gather from the review is that this is something Lumin did very recently.

Anyway, Chris also shared a link to the information. 
I really look forward to hearing a DAC with the Leedh digital volume control.

Wish this would've been implemented when I had the X1 :~(

 

Cool development. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, mevdinc said:

Chris,
Since it seems Lumin allows for a firmware upgrade across all the products, can you not do the same with your X1? Or is it just too expensive?

I had to send the X1 back :~(

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Yes maybe and Audirvana does upsampling to DSD as well so they would have to apply Leedh VC before this stage.

 

in the case of Lumin streamers without DAC they have to apply the Leedh processing before the signal enters the DAC which I do not find desirable.

 

Matt

What’s wrong with processing before entering the DAC?

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

I am not sure if Leedh is perfectly lossless or lossless per definition of MQA.

IMO, the DAC should get the highest quality signal.

 

Matt

 

So no DSD upsampling either?

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

I would not go so far.

But when you look at the Taiko Extreme they started with upsampling to DSD a few years ago and now they go for bit-perfect playback because it seems to be superior in their eyes or better ears.

 

Matt

There are many eyes, ears, and DACs in this world. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Yeah, I know and understand your POV.

But there are some partly expensive R2R DACs which do not need any processing before conversion.

At least clients of the Extreme seem not to prefer upsampling.

 

Matt

No DAC needs processing prior to the unit. It’s all preference. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, matthias said:

There may be DACs which take a benefit from software upsampling but certainly not all.

Absolutely true.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, matthias said:

 

As I said I understand your POV and this is the statement of Sonore as well. 

 

BUT when the computer is of a certain quality this "endpoint concept" comes to an end. So far the experiments with the Extreme had as result that a combo with the Extreme and a very good endpoint does sound inferior to the Extreme alone, the same is true when the Extreme itself is endpoint and gets its signal from another server.

Some others on this forum made the same experience with servers of a lesser quality than the Extreme.

 

But as always YMMV 🙂

 

Matt

The total number of people suggesting endpoints are over is how many? 10?

 

I’m still firmly in the endpoint camp. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Chris,

there has always been a small number of people who make certain experiments and big numbers who accept the status quo.

 

Matt

With all due respect, you accept a tiny number of people's statements as fact very easily. 

 

Experiments don't make them right.

 

total number of people can still be counted on two hands?

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

 

Exactly,

listening experiences with the Taiko Extreme showed that direct connection of a DAC via USB is superior to Extreme plus HQ endpoint connected to the same DAC.

IMO, there is no evidence at all that the endpoint concept is superior sounding, quite the contrary. 🙂

 

Matt

Your experience or that of a couple guys on another site?

 

Endpoints are best in my experience. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, Summit said:

 

Have you compared your preferred Endpoints to a SOTA server like Grimm Audio MU1, Innuos Statement or Extreme?

I've done some comparisons, but not with those exact models. That's why I made sure to note, "in my experience." I would love to compare more.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

It's all a matter of where to place the computer and how clean the output is. 

 

Some people think that a higher power PC closer to the audio device is best while others think a lower power device connected to the audio components is best. This isn't rocket science. We are connecting computers to our DACs. So far, I'm a big fan of low powered custom designed fiber connected endpoints such as the Signature Rendu SE optical. I'm totally cool if others like the opposite. I have no desire to dwell on it and make calls to "authorities" supporting me or refuting me. 

 

I don't think we get very far by posting definitive statements based on a couple guy's experiences.