Best Roon Core server when streaming over RAAT?

[bobbmd]

@miguelito Hello-your post #1 of 22 august 2019: my 'system' seems to be similar to yours-- a late 2012 mac mini i7 16GB RAM(with new Samsung 4TB SSD using WiFi via Apple tower Time Capsule) using El Capitan and my ROON core runs thru this to a new Schiit Yggdrasil GS(GEN5USB) and also ME2 DAC to the amp below-- my SQ sounds 'wonderful' to my ears(via new Schiit Ragnarok 2 and legacy Audio Studio HD monitors and Sennheiser HD 598s and Rs-195s) and use not only ROON but also A+3.5+ and desktop TIDAL and Qobuz with hundreds of self made playlists plus TIDAL and Qobuz playlists. I use the Mac pretty much only for music listening plus my EMR patient records email and google searches. So, is my Mac considered a 'server' and do you think there is any reason to change this to 'improve' my listening experience and if so how would I do this in a relatively simple easy way. Always find your introspects/advice interesting.

Thanks and Happy New Year

bobbmd

[4est]

On 10/20/2019 at 7:18 AM, jay said:

Dropped the OpticalRendu in, and despite some set-up challenges (had to do a large series of reboots on various components for about 20-30 minutes to get it to fully connect to the PS DS DAC and for Roon to see it), we're up and running and it sounds pretty darned good.  It sounded very good before, but I would say it's definitely better and I'm not feeling like I want to take it out to be sure...it's an obvious improvement.  To get the right feed to it, I had to take the Optical Modules out of their duty feeding the Mac Mini/PS DS Bridge II Thunderbolt/Ether bridged setup, so those are back to straight ethernet, and I haven't gone back to compare how much "less awesome" that now sounds.

 

I'm going to put in other USB-regen devices between the OpticalRendu and the PS DirectStream and see if I can make it even better, and I may go get a new switch with Optical outs so that I can individually feed the computer AND the Optical Rendu optically, and reuse the Optical Modules in another system upstairs.  I'm prepared to say that Optical isolation is a must-have if the ethernet network is in your chain and you're looking to maximize the SQ.

 

Note:  I was impatient and ordered the Roon-only version of the OpticalRendu (because it was in stock and the other was not), and realize now that I can't use HDPlayer with it, which did produce an even better sound in my USB-fed configurations before.  So take note of that if you're in a hurry to order, you may want to wait until the more full version is in stock again if the other non-Roon feeds might be important to you.

I bet you can upgrade. I imagine this is software.

[miguelito]

10 hours ago, bobbmd said:

So, is my Mac considered a 'server' and do you think there is any reason to change this to 'improve' my listening experience and if so how would I do this in a relatively simple easy way. Always find your introspects/advice interesting.

Your mini is hosting the Roon Core, so in that sense it's a server. I presume your mini does not have a linear power supply or any other tweaks? 

 

I think you can improve the sound of your system by using a streamer. Something like a microRendu (which only has Ethernet if that's good enough) or one of the other variants from SoTM (some of which have wifi). I think this would improve on the sound of a stock mini quite frankly.

 

I have an Asgard 3 with multibit board as my desktop headphone amp. I tried these:

1- Direct connection to my mac pro

2- Connection to mac pro via a Wyred4Sound USB reclocker

3- Connection to Roon via microRendu powered from a stock wallwart

 

Sound quality: 3 > 2 > 1. Using Roon and also used Audirvana 3.5 for 1 & 2. More importantly, sometimes I am doing something computationally intensive on the mac pro and it can affect the sound, so using the microRendu completely eliminates this issue.

[bobbmd]

@miguelito thanks for the reply-- no other tweaks- I looked at  the price of microRendu probably too dear for me although there was  'B' stock for 499$ but no longer in stock. When you(Rendu) talk about ethernet connection-I have both ethernet and WiFi but don't utilize the ethernet because when my kids come the WiFi provides connectivity to whole very old 1906 3 story house-but if I used the Rendu or the SoTM I could use one of them as a pure server( keep WiFi for all the 'stuff' correct-I really don't do anything near computer intensive tho and that maybe why I feel the SQ etc is so good anyway) connected to my Mac(am only using 2 of the 4 USB ports now) then connect the 'server' to my DAC(the Schiit not the ME2) correct? Then the RCA out from the DAC to the amp.

I will look at pricing again but my CFO would not allow any more costly additions to something she allowed me and termed "your last rodeo". Thanks again and hope I understood you correctly.

bobbmd

[miguelito]

19 minutes ago, bobbmd said:

 connected to my Mac(am only using 2 of the 4 USB ports now)

When you choose the port to use, make sure the DAC is the only device on the port. Easy to do with System Information on the mac.

 

19 minutes ago, bobbmd said:

then connect the 'server' to my DAC(the Schiit not the ME2) correct? Then the RCA out from the DAC to the amp.

Yes, correct. Look on ebay or usaudiomart.com... The microRendu or similar devices are a great simplification and make use of Roon so much easier.

[bobbmd]

@miguelito Thanks again will do and ANYTHING to make ROON easier(ie faster) would be wonderful!

[miguelito]

3 hours ago, bobbmd said:

@miguelito Thanks again will do and ANYTHING to make ROON easier(ie faster) would be wonderful!

I am not sure what to tell you about making Roon faster... I don't think it has anything to do with your CPU since mine is the same and runs idle most of the time. 

[bobbmd]

@miguelito thanks again will just keep my current system-- as I said to me it sounds wonderful and as far as ROON is concerned it just takes long to load and I just leave it on and idle-- love ver 1.7 especially the ease of RADIO and all that wonderful metadata but still think A+3.5+ 'sounds' better-- have a great year and I will continue to follow your comments/suggestions on other subjects

[miguelito]

24 minutes ago, bobbmd said:

@miguelito thanks again will just keep my current system-- as I said to me it sounds wonderful and as far as ROON is concerned it just takes long to load and I just leave it on and idle-- love ver 1.7 especially the ease of RADIO and all that wonderful metadata but still think A+3.5+ 'sounds' better-- have a great year and I will continue to follow your comments/suggestions on other subjects

Yes, Roon takes a fair amount of time to load. I never turn it off, but then again I don't run anything else on that computer.

[mourip]

Wow. So many different approaches. My guess is that they all can sound great. The other thought I have is that I wonder how many of us get a chance to compare ours with other systems built around Roon. I know that I have not, and so all of my observations revolve around improvements in my own system, in my own listening space and for my own ears ...and taste.

 

Having said that, here is my own setup. In my Roon Core server I have run Windows 10 Pro with Audiophile Optimizer(AO), Windows 2012 Server with AO in Core mode, Windows 2016 Server with AO, Windows 2019 Server with AO, and AudioLinux in ramroot. Of these Windows 2019 with AO using Roon as the shell replacement easily surpassed the others. To my ears AudioLinux sounded dry and a bit bright in the server role but is wonderful as my Endpoint/Bridge where I use it now.

 

For my server hardware I have a Streacom fanless case running an ASRock mITX board. The processor is an i3 with low TMP. It runs very cool. I have two local SSDs with one for music and one for the OS. An new version HDplex 200W LPS powers the 19V board (via an HDPlex 400w converter) while a 5V output powers the two SSDs. A JCAT Femto card is powered similarly by an HDPlex output. The JCAT is bridged with one output going directly to the AL NUC endpoint and the other output going to a small Cisco switch which is also powered by an LPS. I have tried fiber links in various scenarios using an LPS to power the "clean side" FMC but always return to ethernet.

 

I am considering an EtherRegen but for now this is the best sound I have had in my home. See my profile for the rest of the system.

 

YMMV 🙂

[jcolon]

Or you can get one of this http://www.thunder-data.com/e-z5 and enjoy the music. Instead of playing around with pc and server components, this was built and design from the ground up for audio and music playing. The noise floor and file loading speed of this unit is amazing.

[Cable Monkey]

6 hours ago, jcolon said:

Or you can get one of this http://www.thunder-data.com/e-z5 and enjoy the music. Instead of playing around with pc and server components, this was built and design from the ground up for audio and music playing. The noise floor and file loading speed of this unit is amazing.

What I see there is a device designed to accommodate several approaches to the business of serving music. For virtually all of those approaches the hardware is more than adequate. But for Roon I doubt it could deal with a library of significant size. And the DSP options would be limited by the power available from that processor. That doesn’t mean it won’t sound fabulous. But it would be good if they were more clear about its potential limitations as a Roon core.

[jcolon]

I had those concerns exactly mainly because the processor selected. My library is about 2 Tbytes, so far the processor breezes thru all requests an I had no problem playing hi rez files. I assume because the OS is specially designed for audio and has no additional process running like windows or macOS it runs smooth and fast.

[Cable Monkey]

I suppose it depends on your approach to running Roon. If Roon is used purely as a bit perfect music player, it’s requirements are minimal. 

[mourip]

11 hours ago, jcolon said:

Or you can get one of this http://www.thunder-data.com/e-z5 and enjoy the music. Instead of playing around with pc and server components, this was built and design from the ground up for audio and music playing. The noise floor and file loading speed of this unit is amazing.

 

Nice unit. I wonder how it would compare to a well laid out NUC running AudioLinux. Do you own one or have you heard one?

[jcolon]

3 hours ago, mourip said:

 

Nice unit. I wonder how it would compare to a well laid out NUC running AudioLinux. Do you own one or have you heard one?

 

I do own one and after playing around with pc's and macmini, this is on another level.

[bobfa]

I have a hard time with "best". I can tell you what I have done over the past couple of years to get to my current "best" up until a week ago!

 

I have tried in some odd order

1. Mac Mini

2. MacMini with UpTone Power conversion and JS-2

3. Two different Sonic Transporters.

4. Intel NUC in fanless case

5. DIY Xeon Server

6. Multiple OS variants:  macOS, AudioLiniux, Euphony

7. Network bridging and no bridging 

8. Optical networking and fancy switches.

 

 

The BEST I have been able to achieve is to run the Xeon server (DIY) with JCAT USB and NET cards.  Euphony OS with Roon and Stylus EP.  Music stored on my NAS. With the JCAT cards I did not get to bridging and using the NUC as an endpoint.  This whole path is at an end for me.

 

The SECOND BEST I have done is without the JCAT cards. Using the Xeon Server as a core bridged to the NUC as an endpoint.  The networking was a bit odd as I was using the Sonore Opticalmodule to further "fix" the network to the NUC.  

 

I am writing about my current system design over the next couple of weeks so I will keep that under wraps for now.

 

Bob

 

[mourip]

3 hours ago, bobfa said:

I have a hard time with "best". I can tell you what I have done over the past couple of years to get to my current "best" up until a week ago!

 

I have tried in some odd order

1. Mac Mini

2. MacMini with UpTone Power conversion and JS-2

3. Two different Sonic Transporters.

4. Intel NUC in fanless case

5. DIY Xeon Server

6. Multiple OS variants:  macOS, AudioLiniux, Euphony

7. Network bridging and no bridging 

8. Optical networking and fancy switches.

 

 

The BEST I have been able to achieve is to run the Xeon server (DIY) with JCAT USB and NET cards.  Euphony OS with Roon and Stylus EP.  Music stored on my NAS. With the JCAT cards I did not get to bridging and using the NUC as an endpoint.  This whole path is at an end for me.

 

The SECOND BEST I have done is without the JCAT cards. Using the Xeon Server as a core bridged to the NUC as an endpoint.  The networking was a bit odd as I was using the Sonore Opticalmodule to further "fix" the network to the NUC.  

 

I am writing about my current system design over the next couple of weeks so I will keep that under wraps for now.

 

Bob

 

 

USB out direct to DAC?

[bobfa]

Just now, mourip said:

 

USB out direct to DAC?

I have tested a lot of USB devices, cables, etc.  The UpTone ISOregen with LPS 1.2 is really good, but a modified SoTM tx-USB Ultra did it a lot better.  A lot more money.  Both of these require two USB cables too.