Bits is bits?

[charlesphoto]

Sometimes this forum makes my seven and ten year old kids seem easy.... and as my wife likes to ask, when the kids and I get into it, "Who's the adult in the room?" 

 

No idea what anyone is on about in this thread anymore other than insulting each other, but remember, deep breath, and repeat after me "it's just stuff, it's just stuff, it's just..." 

[charlesphoto]

3 hours ago, DonaldT2109 said:

 

Sorry guys,  I thank you for your time but I'm out of here looking for a forum here they actually know how audio transmission works.

I suggest you do some reading up on how sound is digitised, transmitted and then restored to audio

 

See ya

 

 

 

Look at his avatar name - and imagine that, coming on here and in a dozen posts coming off as an ass%&@* and insulting the entire forum, like his beloved has the entire world. Good riddance. 

[charlesphoto]

Just now, DonaldT2109 said:

 

Still here……………….. but can we keep elementary schoolers out of this forum please?

I have been very careful, unlike you, to insult no one, read back, I am afraid that it is you that has come across as an ass%&@*

You are so so typical of those with fingers in your ears going 'la,la,la,la,la' when you can't win an argument. Stamp your feet next?

All I want is for one person to explain how this special USB cable rearranges the bit stream coming out of the usb port to enhance the audio that it carries before it presents it to the DAC. Nobody has offered an explanation yet. Does it have a DSP chip built into it? No cable manufacturer or 'reviewer' can answer that very simple question.

 

All I have got so far is mains water supply, scotch and other completely irrelevant nonsense

 

Please can somebody explain how these special USB cables work

 

I think I/we could spend all morning explaining it to you and you would still be adamant in your (dis) belief. And then just call us 'audio fools' and announce that you're 'out of here (again and again). You seem to be a person who comes off like that.

 

So, all I'll add is  "La, la, la, la...." 

[charlesphoto]

And, I'm sorry, but unless your name is really Donald and last name begins with a T,  your screen name was chosen specifically to trigger people, so expect to reap what you seek. 

[charlesphoto]

3 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I love the role reversal. DonaldT arguing for an objective, scientific explanation and those against him arguing for an unproven conspiracy theory! Hilarious.

 

I hear Giulliani is getting to the bottom of all this USB nonsense. Great scientific mind on that guy. 

[charlesphoto]

1 minute ago, marce said:

So at least give some explanation..... 

 

I'm not even sure what needs explaining at this point! 

[charlesphoto]

6 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said:

 

My name is Donald T...........and I am in the UK and not related to ther buffoon in the USA. 

 

please go away if you have nothing constructive to say or can explain what I have asked for

 

I sincerely apologize then. Reminder to not listen to the news while commenting on an audio site. 

[charlesphoto]

Just now, DonaldT2109 said:

 

Thanks Marce

 

the exact question was         " how this special USB cable rearranges the bit stream coming out of the usb port to enhance the audio that it carries before it presents it to the DAC "

 

Again and again we've discussed how digital information is carried by electricity (analog if you will) to where it needs to go. Therefore, the quality of wire, connectors, etc will have an impact on the sound due to the nature of the electrical 'stream' (just as in AC power cords), not the nature of the ones and zeros being carried by such. Now whether YOU can hear the difference between cables is up to YOU. But obviously they do change/tune/sculpt the sound or there wouldn't be such a huge industry surrounding them. Of course, everybody's values will be different. I put in an Uptone USPCB for $35 in the back of my V1 and have never looked back, and feel no need for a more expensive or 'better' USB cable as the Uptone one sounded better than the generic or $70 hifi one I had before. 

[charlesphoto]

20 minutes ago, marce said:

You are ascribing analogue problems to the digital data stream though, it doesn't work that way with digital... That is one of the main points of digital, the information can get through unaffected by the transmission system, the noise is on the signal, NOT the data that signal carries... 

 

The noise is on the signal.... and doesn't that signal carry on into your DAC? And the sound could be potentially 'shaped, tuned, whatever' by the cable?  I think this is what I said - never have I thought that data would be affected by the signal transmission, but  that the sound would. 

[charlesphoto]

Perhaps the use of the term 'enhanced' is where the confusion comes in. Perhaps 'different' is better. The data has to be 'pushed' so to speak from one point to another with electricity. That electricity picks up contamination, or 'noise,' which then needs to be ameliorated before entering the analog domain, or it will be passed right along with it. 

 

I will argue adamantly that good switches or optical isolation devices (and good power supplies for them if needed) will go a lot farther in cleaning up the signal then some fancy uber expensive cable can. But it does have to do with the 'noise' rejection geometry and material properties used that can make a sound difference. I've heard cheap, or wrong, cables 'muddy the waters' so to speak, and this can even be pretty far down the chain. 

 

But I'm just a layman so what do I know/hear? I do think hearing is a complex sense (perhaps the most) and can't be discounted from what we know scientifically about audio, and what we hear but don't actually understand - yet. If you read speculative fiction like Liu Cixin, the future, and interstellar travel esp, will be all about mastering physics way beyond where where we're at today (like toddlers). But we're all so mired in our human muck, it will take us longer than other alien civilizations might (I highly recommend his Remembrance of Earth's Past trilogy). 

 

One has to be rigid about the science, but the importance of science is also to imagine beyond what we already know, and we shouldn't lose sight of that. 

 

So a middle ground perhaps? 

 

 

[charlesphoto]

I will say the differences I've heard with my DAC V1 in the very few USB cables I tried was minimal. The DAC V1 uses a very good Audiophilio designed async input and theoretically should clean up most anything. I just like the Uptone USPCB for it's form factor, price, and it did sound better than the $60 Atlas I was using before (that I convinced myself was marginally better than a free printer cable). 

 

I've heard bigger differences with ethernet cables, AC cables somewhat, but not enough to really care beyond them being good. DC cables between power supply and renderer considerably more difference heard.  

[charlesphoto]

13 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

Which other area do we actually listen to the results, so surely the better questions are; how come we can actually hear differences? Or; What is it about our hearing that makes us so sensitive to these anomalies? 

 

My goal for over 40 years has been to have a system that is completely immersive and 100% musically convincing. I have found this goal to be very illusive and only achieved with the utmost care. One false move and its gone. I have heard literally hundreds of systems and have heard my goal realised on only very few occasions. The replacement of a single DC cable is sometimes enough to rob the system of its magic, so we’re not talking major anomalies. Close to perfect music from an audio system is in my experience a very rarely encountered quality. 

 

 

Exactly. Last I checked I've never listened to my printer (i do wish it were quieter sometimes). And as long as the data gets there, the printer head takes over. I can change the paper, the software parameters, etc. but not much I can do to that head. Black is black. I always wondered about a better cable to my monitor, but it uses LUTS for calibration, so theoretically it will calibrate to the perfect colors, no special cable needed. 

 

And just because a cable is special (ie military or space spec) doesn't mean it will sound good for audio. 

[charlesphoto]

15 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said:

OK

 

Lets say that I have installed the Audioquest Diamond, as an example, into my system

 

I now have a beautiful clean signal reaching my DAC from my USB port, absolutely perfect, couldn't be better with no jitter and perfect signal timing

 

I quote from Audiostream.com, "The Audioquest Diamond’s greatest sonic attribute is its extreme smoothness in the midrange and high end that at the same time, is detailed and very revealing. The Diamond is not a warm sounding cable nor does it roll off transients. Bass is well defined with a very slight fullness of the real thing. The soundstage is large with excellent width and depth"

 

I try The Synergistic Research USB Active SE with Enigma Tuning Circuits instead (Don’t laugh, it really exists)

 

Again from Audiostream.com, "The sonic characteristic of this cable that stuck with me the most was the richness of sound and analog character of the cable. The midrange of this cable can sound absolutely beautiful and revealing at the same time. Sound staging was not only wide, but extremely deep in presentation. The deep black background offered by this cable is very impressive. The Synergistic was never hard sounding or excessively rounded at the high end. Transients were well reproduced with excellent dynamics both macro and micro. The bass was well defined and not overly lean. "

 

So, my question one more time. How does a USB cable do this ? How does it adjust my now perfect bit for bit digitised audio-stream between USB port and DAC to give these results           Anyone ?
 

To do this they would need onboard A/D and DSP chips to derive the digital stream from the analogue USB, decode the digital stream back to audio, make their enhancements, recode to digital, D/A back into the analogue USB, regenrate the signal to the DAC.

 

That would explain the costs for a few bits of wire

 

Or is something different happening?   anyone ?

 

 

 

 

I think you're reading too much into it. No cabling I've added to my system has 'changed' the sound in a way a different DAC or set of speakers might, it just takes what's there and makes it come through better, therefore more bass, details, etc. But the nature of my DAC onwards (or streamer if we're talking ethernet cable and optical isolation) is still the same.

 

Like applying a sharpening filter in Photoshop. You're not changing anything else (color balance, gradation, etc), just making what's there come through better.

 

Now whether it's worth the hyperbole or the cost is up for argument,  but the fact that wire quality, geometry, and connections can make at least subtle sound changes in digital audio transmission isn't, imo. 

[charlesphoto]

10 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said:

My local mechanic can tell me  how my car's engine works

My doctor can tell me how my body works

I have a relative who can explain exactly how the Large Hadron Collider works

I can explain (in mind numbing detail) how trellis coded modulation works (I was on the committee)

But nobody, including the manufacturers, can tell me how a 'special' USB cable enhances the digitised audio passing accross it

 

Right here on another thread. 

 

 

[charlesphoto]

8 hours ago, Sonic77 said:

Imploded like a cheap usb cable.

 

No certification for DonaldT -  too far out of spec! 

[charlesphoto]

9 hours ago, sandyk said:

 Dennis

 The sad thing is that he presented his case so badly here, without taking any notice of what many others told him, that he and his friends may end up getting their fingers burned and their wallets emptied if they lose their action in the U.K.

 They may even end up having to pay damages to the company,  that if he is correct, deserves to be exposed and put out of business ?

 

Alex

 

 

My parents dealt with the likes of him at their old country property. The new neighbors who bought the land next door, got all bent out of shape over the fact that the survey at the top was off by about a 2 X 20 foot strip, and my folks had accidentally built 15 years earlier their water tanks over it. Really a nothing burger, and my parents offered to settle for pro-rate (about $12k I believe) as they really didn't want to move these water tanks and it was obviously an unused spot beyond that on the corner of the property. Easily dealt with in a neighborly way.

 

Long story short, these people wouldn't settle, and at the end of the day they lost, and lost probably about $45k in lawyers fees, surveyors, air photography, etc. (My folks about $10- 15K sadly). This was before the people had even built anyhting- by the time my parents sold four years later (in large part due to these people) they still hadn't built anything beyond plopping down an ugly septic that was an eyesore.  This is beautiful, west facing San Juan Island sea side, but nothing could make these people happy. Nice neighbors to have in paradise, let me tell you. All to prove a worthless point over a grandfathered mistake. 

[charlesphoto]

My sentiments exactly @Blackmorec

 

Just watch your forehead - there’s only so much blood one can/should lose with the ‘bricks’ on here. 

[charlesphoto]

3 hours ago, mansr said:

The reality is somewhat different. Some posters on this very thread are lacking knowledge and understanding; they are the ones saying everything is very, very complicated. Others, the engineers, do possess knowledge and understanding; they say it's actually not that hard.

 

Th reality is there are no pyschoacoustics or ear/hearing specialists on here. I think that might have a lot more to do with the difference in sounds we hear than electrical engineers. For example, tinnitus can be caused by many different things (not just too much loud sound). And some of the reasons are not understood and/or not fully explored. So are people just imagining their tinnitus? I know I'm sure not. So let's not discount physiology in this equation. Our ears and brains are actually the 'endpoint.'  

[charlesphoto]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

Is there anything at all you feel we can safely say doesn't make a difference without explicitly testing it? Phase of the moon? Tarot cards?

 

Is there anything at all you can't be negative about? All I see listed under your audio system is 'electronics.' Have you ever tried ANYTHING that gets discussed on this site? Or are you just comfortable playing the role of denier? Because FYI the one liner denunciations of anybody else's first hand experiences has gotten to be extremely old (to the point of one foot in the grave). Say something positive for once please. Back on my ignore list.