New Holo Audio Spring2 DSD1024 DAC

[matthias]

Guys, please keep this thread on track. The topic is Holo Spring2. Thanks.

 

Matt

[matthias]

@Miska

Comparing Spring1 and Cyan in NOS mode (DSD256 or DSD512) in a set-up with speakers (not headphones):

Is the Spring1 superior regarding SQ (not measurements)?

Thanks

 

Matt

[Miska]

1 minute ago, matthias said:

@Miska

Comparing Spring1 and Cyan in NOS mode (DSD256 or DSD512) in a set-up with speakers (not headphones):

Is the Spring1 superior regarding SQ (not measurements)?

 

I've never compared it that way. Spring1 is on my loudspeaker system and Cyan DSD is on my office desk headphone stack... Now I want also Spring2 on my loudspeaker system (full width gear is just too big for my office desk).

[matthias]

@Miska

Did you compare (Spring1 only)?

 

Redbook > HQP to high rate PCM > PCM NOS mode

vs.

Redbook > HQP to high rate DSD > DSD NOS mode

 

Thanks

 

Matt

[Miska]

20 minutes ago, matthias said:

@Miska

Did you compare (Spring1 only)?

 

Redbook > HQP to high rate PCM > PCM NOS mode

vs.

Redbook > HQP to high rate DSD > DSD NOS mode

 

Yes, I compared it shortly at the beginning. It works quite nicely both way, but I like more to run it at DSD512 so I have HQPE set to fixed 22.6 MHz output rate.

 

If you run it with PCM, set DAC Bits to 19 or 20, since the linearity reaches to about -120 dB level based for example on Holo Audio's data you can find in couple of places:

https://wildism-audio-hk.myshopify.com/blogs/news/holo-audio-xmos-xu208-spring-dsd-r2r-dac

You can also use noise shaping to improve SNR in audio band a little bit.

 

With the Spring2's higher PCM rate capabilities, one can probably utilize lower word lengths and noise shaping to improve the R2R performance even further.

 

You can also find some measurement data here if you scroll down:

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=538890897934

 

I've also done my set of measurements I've discussed earlier somewhere on this forum...

 

[Superdad]

5 hours ago, Miska said:

If you run it with PCM, set DAC Bits to 19 or 20...

 

Wow, 19 or 20?  I've had mine set to 22 or 23.  I'll try going lower.  Which dither setting do you think sound best with Spring 1 Lvl.3 and those lower DAC bits settings?  For PCM 384kHz (and I'm a fan of your poly-sine-short filter).

 

5 hours ago, Miska said:

With the Spring2's higher PCM rate capabilities, one can probably utilize lower word lengths and noise shaping to improve the R2R performance even further.

 

Didn't you mean "longer" word lengths with the Spring2?  Not sure why the new DAC would want to go even shorter/"lower" than Spring1.

[Miska]

9 hours ago, Superdad said:

Wow, 19 or 20?  I've had mine set to 22 or 23.  I'll try going lower.  Which dither setting do you think sound best with Spring 1 Lvl.3 and those lower DAC bits settings?  For PCM 384kHz (and I'm a fan of your poly-sine-short filter).

 

You could try NS5 or NS9...

 

9 hours ago, Superdad said:

Didn't you mean "longer" word lengths with the Spring2?  Not sure why the new DAC would want to go even shorter/"lower" than Spring1.

 

Because I doubt it will be able to settle to that accuracy at 1.5 MHz. But it doesn't matter because you get even more benefit from noise shaping, so the net result is probably better... If it manages 16-bit at 1.5 MHz it is already very good!

 

[matthias]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 2:41 PM, Miska said:

 It really depends on a particular design how much the R2R rate can be increased before settling time ruins the performance. 16-bit part can be certainly run at higher rates than 24-bit part, because for LSBs to have effect, the DAC needs to settle to +-½LSB within fraction of the sample time for the precision to be useful. It is hard to say where the limit is without testing.

 

In case of Spring1 or Spring2 do you think it is better to go for DSD upsampling when the settling time characteristics with R2R are unknown?

Thanks

 

Matt

[Miska]

2 hours ago, matthias said:

In case of Spring1 or Spring2 do you think it is better to go for DSD upsampling when the settling time characteristics with R2R are unknown?

 

Probably it would be better to stick with DSD in any case, but it is just my opinion...

 

If the R2R side is good, then the difference between the two just gets smaller at 1.5 MHz PCM rate.

 

Here's a digital domain example of 16-bit output at 1.5 MHz using NS5 noise shaping:

 

Source is linear sweep from 44.1k file.

 

That is certainly much more than analog noise floor of anything. And it could be safe to assume it manages 16-bit at that rate.

 

[matthias]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

 

Impressive.

 

[Superdad]

8 hours ago, Miska said:

You could try NS5 or NS9...

 

Those are the two dither options I settled upon by ear long ago. (Mostly staying with NS5) Thanks for concurring! 

 

8 hours ago, Miska said:

Because I doubt it will be able to settle to that accuracy at 1.5 MHz. But it doesn't matter because you get even more benefit from noise shaping, so the net result is probably better... If it manages 16-bit at 1.5 MHz it is already very good!

 

I appreciate your explanation.

[57gold]

On 12/12/2018 at 11:13 AM, Miska said:

 

I've never compared it that way. Spring1 is on my loudspeaker system and Cyan DSD is on my office desk headphone stack... Now I want also Spring2 on my loudspeaker system (full width gear is just too big for my office desk).

Jussi - Do you run a preamp with Spring1 to drive amp?

 

Understand that these DACs do not offer built in attenuation...though some models have a remote.  For filter or mode changes?

 

Thanks.

[Miska]

12 minutes ago, 57gold said:

Jussi - Do you run a preamp with Spring1 to drive amp?

 

Understand that these DACs do not offer built in attenuation...though some models have a remote.  For filter or mode changes?

 

Yes, I have a separate preamp and power amp after Spring1. Spring1 is connected through balanced to preamp which in turns runs balanced to the power amp. My layout is such that equipment is connected with quite short cables (max 1 meter cable length) to the preamp in one double-rack located at side wall. And then preamp runs to the power amp located between the speakers, with about 3 meter cables. Speaker cables are about 1.5 meter long.

 

Preamp has stepped attenuator for volume control and also separate volume controlled output for subwoofer. Main channels are acoustically crossed over to subwoofer, so I have adjusted subwoofer low-pass frequency to match suitable point of main channel roll-off so that combined response is flat (done with measurements using REW).

 

[asdf1000]

On 12/11/2018 at 12:41 AM, Miska said:

Holo Spring has two DACs in one box, R2R ladder - which performs notably better too at 352.8/384k. And DSD multi-element array that is similar to my DSC1 design, which performs best at 22.5792 MHz. I also have Holo Cyan DSD DAC, which is DSD-oly DAC and a bit like Spring, but without the R2R part (but Cyan has sweet spot more around 11.3 MHz).

 

Hi Jussi,

 

So the DSD conversion section/module of the Spring1 is different to the Cyan's DSD conversion section/module?

 

Is that why Spring1 is better at DSD512, compared with Cyan better at DSD512?

 

Or is Spring1 better than Cyan when both are at DSD512, more so because  different analogue output stages?

 

 

[Miska]

4 hours ago, Em2016 said:

So the DSD conversion section/module of the Spring1 is different to the Cyan's DSD conversion section/module?

 

Is that why Spring1 is better at DSD512, compared with Cyan better at DSD512?

 

Or is Spring1 better than Cyan when both are at DSD512, more so because  different analogue output stages?

 

Especially Cyan is sort of black box, where DAC is just a swappable module sitting on the base board, I could even buy R2R module too and swap. But I don't know precisely why Spring1 is better at DSD512 than Cyan. It could be either the D/A stage or the analog stage after. I really didn't put much effort into figuring out which one is the limiting factor.

 

[asdf1000]

15 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Especially Cyan is sort of black box, where DAC is just a swappable module sitting on the base board, I could even buy R2R module too and swap. But I don't know precisely why Spring1 is better at DSD512 than Cyan. It could be either the D/A stage or the analog stage after. I really didn't put much effort into figuring out which one is the limiting factor.

 

 

I saw in the Cyan thread that early on there were issues with DSD256x48 base rate.

 

Was a firmware later able to fix this or is the problem still there because it's a hardware issue?

 

[louisxiawei]

I'm lucky to get one Spring 2 sample from Jeff last week and also built a compact PC for testing it (9900K + Titan V)

 

 

 

Most of filters can be upsampled to DSD1024 and Spring 2 playbacks smoothly. Don't think anyone owning an modern PC will have difficulty doing -2s filter 1024 upsampling. 

 

 

Haven't had enough time to do serious listening demo though.

[Miska]

6 hours ago, Em2016 said:

I saw in the Cyan thread that early on there were issues with DSD256x48 base rate.

 

Was a firmware later able to fix this or is the problem still there because it's a hardware issue?

 

Cyan doesn't support 48-base DSD and Spring 1 doesn't either. So no difference in that respect...

[matthias]

3 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Cyan doesn't support 48-base DSD and Spring 1 doesn't either. So no difference in that respect...

 

Maybe @Bimmer100 can tell us whether Spring2 supports 48-base DSD.

 

Matt

[louisxiawei]

5 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Maybe @Bimmer100 can tell us whether Spring2 supports 48-base DSD.

 

Matt

I've tested it, spring 2 supports 48k rate.

[matthias]

13 minutes ago, louisxiawei said:

I've tested it, spring 2 supports 48k rate.

 

Thank you,

looking forward to your listening impressions with Spring2.

 

Matt

[Forehaven]

Not sure what you guys are talking about, but my Spring 1 plays 48k just fine

 

 

[ted_b]

Chris,

They "48k" they are referring to is 48k-based DSD rates, like DSD64 being 3.072Mhz instead of 2.822Mhz.  It's used in software like HQPlayer when one supposes the DAC's own 48k clocks are more accurate or less noisy (oversimplified).  My Spring is still boxed up from the move or I'd confirm that it doesn't work.  I assume Jussi knows best (but from memory I'd swear it worked).

[gdpr]

I can also confirm that the Spring Level 2 is capable of supporting DSD512x48, at least this is indicated in Roon.

However, Miska indicated that the upsampling rate shown by Roon was not handled correctly by the DAC. 

Maybe Miska.can dig in with some more details

[Forehaven]

1 hour ago, ted_b said:

Chris,

They "48k" they are referring to is 48k-based DSD rates, like DSD64 being 3.072Mhz instead of 2.822Mhz.  It's used in software like HQPlayer when one supposes the DAC's own 48k clocks are more accurate or less noisy (oversimplified).  My Spring is still boxed up from the move or I'd confirm that it doesn't work.  I assume Jussi knows best (but from memory I'd swear it worked).

Doh! lol  Thanks Ted.