New Holo Audio Spring2 DSD1024 DAC

[matthias]

4 hours ago, 4est said:

I cannot speak for others, but it was not the 1024 that interested me. 512 is fine. I was hoping it might be a more refined version in other respects.

 

+1

The Achilles heel of the first generation Spring was the USB interface. So quite a few owners used the Singxer DDC into I2S.

Now if what Holo claim is trustworthy the USB is much improved. 

For Mac users it seems to be the first DAC which allows DoP DSD512 if you have a capable computer.

 

Matt

[asdf1000]

The race to find a computer powerful enough to do poly-sinc-xtr, non-2s at DSD1024 is now on ?

 

Enough of us are struggling to get DSD512 working with even 2s !

 

But I'm quite happy with poly-sinc-lp-2s at DSD512. My fanless NUC7i7DNHE does it nicely.

 

I'm going a bit off topic now, apologies.

 

[Miska]

3 hours ago, matthias said:

The Achilles heel of the first generation Spring was the USB interface. So quite a few owners used the Singxer DDC into I2S.

 

What is wrong with it? I haven't seen anything to complain about on mine...

 

[matthias]

25 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

What is wrong with it? I haven't seen anything to complain about on mine...

 

 

Some audiophiles on SBAF found that I2S is the best and USB the worst input of the Spring. 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/holo-audio-spring-dac-level-3-kitsune-tuned-edition-impressions-reviews.3172/

I think there is also some consensus about on CA forum.

AFAIK @Superdad uses the Singxer DDC into I2S for his Spring too.

 

Matt

[asdf1000]

2 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Some audiophiles on SBAF found that I2S is the best and USB the worst input of the Spring. 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/holo-audio-spring-dac-level-3-kitsune-tuned-edition-impressions-reviews.3172/

I think there is also some consensus about on CA forum.

AFAIK @Superdad uses the Singxer DDC into I2S for his Spring too.

 

Matt

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/38240-network-streamers-with-i2s-output/?do=findComment&comment=783773

[Miska]

3 hours ago, matthias said:

Some audiophiles on SBAF found that I2S is the best and USB the worst input of the Spring. 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/holo-audio-spring-dac-level-3-kitsune-tuned-edition-impressions-reviews.3172/

I think there is also some consensus about on CA forum.

AFAIK @Superdad uses the Singxer DDC into I2S for his Spring too.

 

I'm not seeing any objective data substantiating the claims...

 

53 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/38240-network-streamers-with-i2s-output/?do=findComment&comment=783773

 

Phase noise is certainly not a problem with Spring's internal clocks. And I have doubts that transmitting clock over a cable is going to improve anything, or at least I would like to see some hard evidence before I believe.

 

[matthias]

2 minutes ago, Miska said:

 And I have doubts that transmitting clock over a cable is going to improve anything, or at least I would like to see some hard evidence before I believe.

 

Agree,

at least they have now better clock and USB interface, so there should not be any reason to use an external DDC for Spring2.

 

Matt

[asdf1000]

21 minutes ago, Miska said:

And I have doubts that transmitting clock over a cable is going to improve anything

 

Do I2S cables separate the digital clock from the digital data? Can that help with jitter?

 

And to be clear I personally have no idea, which is why I ask - never used an I2S cable in my life.

[pkane2001]

Just now, Em2016 said:

Do I2S cables separate the digital clock from the digital data? Can that help with jitter?

They do.

 

Quote

I have no idea - never used an I2S cable in my life.

 

I did. About 25 years ago with all Audio Alchemy equipment  Used all I2S connectors from transport to multiple de-jittering devices+DSP to DAC. It sounded amazing!

 

And more recently, between SU-1 and Holo Spring 1. Also used USB-100 DDC with I2S. Tried various short LVDS/HDMI I2S cables. Modded SU-1 with better power, regulators, installed a sorted, very low phase noise oscillator. Sounded good when I tested it. A while back I switched to use USB input directly, bypassing SU-1. Sounds just as good in my opinion. I've not turned on the SU-1 since then. YMMV.

 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Em2016 said:

Do I2S cables separate the digital clock from the digital data? Can that help with jitter?

 

Yes, but unfortunately they tend to send clocks to wrong direction, so instead of going from DAC to the interface, they send clock with the data which is a problem. It is difficult enough to get clock distributed properly on-board inside DAC, when you put it on a cable you have a lot of problems to expect, similar to S/PDIF and AES that also send clock. I2S was never intended to be used on a cable, it is designed for connecting chips together on a board.

 

In best cases the data is completely reclocked inside DAC after receiving it from I2S. I also have vague memory that Spring would be doing this too (in which case the external clock wouldn't be used).

 

[matthias]

3 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Yes, but unfortunately they tend to send clocks to wrong direction, so instead of going from DAC to the interface, they send clock with the data which is a problem. It is difficult enough to get clock distributed properly on-board inside DAC, when you put it on a cable you have a lot of problems to expect, similar to S/PDIF and AES that also send clock. I2S was never intended to be used on a cable, it is designed for connecting chips together on a board.

In best cases the data is completely reclocked inside DAC after receiving it from I2S. I also have vague memory that Spring would be doing this too (in which case the external clock wouldn't be used).

 

Miska,

thanks for clarification.

If I understand correctly there is no benefit of I2S in comparison to a good USB implementation?

 

Matt

 

 

[rafa]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

 

Miska,

thanks for clarification.

If I understand correctly there is no benefit of I2S in comparison to a good USB implementation?

 

Matt

 

 

But to find out you need to plugin and listen.

[Miska]

2 hours ago, matthias said:

If I understand correctly there is no benefit of I2S in comparison to a good USB implementation?

 

No, it is not magic bullet because it is harder to get right than USB implementation. Especially because it depends both ends of the wire to get it right. And IMO, it practically requires reclocking at the DAC side, or implementation where DAC sends the clock upstream, opposite direction as the data. Clock is best placed as close to the D/A conversion stage as possible.

 

It also makes galvanic isolation harder, because if the I2S source has the master clock, it is at wrong side of the isolation barrier.

 

If there is a benefit from external I2S, it is likely due to other reasons than clock...

 

[twluke]

12 hours ago, Miska said:

 

No, it is not magic bullet because it is harder to get right than USB implementation. Especially because it depends both ends of the wire to get it right. And IMO, it practically requires reclocking at the DAC side, or implementation where DAC sends the clock upstream, opposite direction as the data. Clock is best placed as close to the D/A conversion stage as possible.

 

It also makes galvanic isolation harder, because if the I2S source has the master clock, it is at wrong side of the isolation barrier.

 

If there is a benefit from external I2S, it is likely due to other reasons than clock...

 

 

Hi Miska, thank you for this comment. However, I'm a little confused with it. Shown below is part of the description from the Holo Audio-KTE Spring 2 page:

 

  ...snip... (This feature i’m most excited for, as many of you know that I highly recommend i2s hdmi input as being ideal connection with our dac)

 

Currently I've been applying this I2S(HDMI) connection to My Cyan DSD DAC (via Hermes-BBB/Cronus from TPA) and have been quite satisified with this setting.

 

Regards,

[Miska]

6 minutes ago, twluke said:

Hi Miska, thank you for this comment. However, I'm a little confused with it. Shown below is part of the description from the Holo Audio-KTE Spring 2 page:

 

  ...snip... (This feature i’m most excited for, as many of you know that I highly recommend i2s hdmi input as being ideal connection with our dac)

 

Currently I've been applying this I2S(HDMI) connection to My Cyan DSD DAC (via Hermes-BBB/Cronus from TPA) and have been quite satisified with this setting.

 

I cannot comment about that page, because I don't know background behind...

 

I'm running my Cyan DSD straight from my Xeon desktop using USB cable and at least phase noise is not an issue that way:

[twluke]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

 

I cannot comment about that page, because I don't know background behind...

 

I'm running my Cyan DSD straight from my Xeon desktop using USB cable and at least phase noise is not an issue that way:

 

Thanks for this comment but I'm afraid to say that the data alone can not convince the USB superiority to I2S without comparison.

 

Regards,

[asdf1000]

3 minutes ago, twluke said:

Thanks for this comment but I'm afraid to say that the data alone can not convince the USB superiority to I2S without comparison.

 

 

Jussi will answer for himself of course but he hasn't said anything about USB superiority?

 

He literally said "straight from my Xeon desktop using USB cable and at least phase noise is not an issue"

 

From his graph, his comment looks good to me. No jitter issues with USB at DSD256.

[twluke]

1 hour ago, Em2016 said:

 

Jussi will answer for himself of course but he hasn't said anything about USB superiority?

 

He literally said "straight from my Xeon desktop using USB cable and at least phase noise is not an issue"

 

From his graph, his comment looks good to me. No jitter issues with USB at DSD256.

 

The graph is quite okay. I think if he can not find the background to explain why the manufacturer recommends I2S HDMI input, then he should have stopped his comment as that point; no need to bring up the USB data graph.

 

As long as concerned with the Cyan DAC, I can say that playing and listening to DSD512 on HQP via the onboard USB DDC was not bad but also not so impressive when compared with the I2S/HDMI connection from the Hermes-BBB/Cronus (data signal isolated and reclocked on board, connected async to the Cyan), though not based on particular measurements.

 

Regards,

[rafa]

Well, the most important is what we hear from DAC, not what graphs tells you what you should hear  

[vortecjr]

16 hours ago, Miska said:

 

No, it is not magic bullet because it is harder to get right than USB implementation. Especially because it depends both ends of the wire to get it right. And IMO, it practically requires reclocking at the DAC side, or implementation where DAC sends the clock upstream, opposite direction as the data. Clock is best placed as close to the D/A conversion stage as possible.

 

It also makes galvanic isolation harder, because if the I2S source has the master clock, it is at wrong side of the isolation barrier.

 

If there is a benefit from external I2S, it is likely due to other reasons than clock...

 

I agree with most of this. I know of one device that feeds the master clock back to the source. So for the rest of the i2s capable devices you are stuck with sending the best master clock you can to it in hopes that it will use it. For example: The PS Audio DS does not use the master clock and does its own thing internal. In our discontinued Rendu with i2s output the IO board would send a femto master clock to the DAC and also back to the i2s generator. It’s not what you describe as a best practice, but a hybrid. Anyway, the goal with external i2s, as I see it, is to try to improve on the DACs other inputs as they exist. 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, twluke said:

The graph is quite okay. I think if he can not find the background to explain why the manufacturer recommends I2S HDMI input, then he should have stopped his comment as that point; no need to bring up the USB data graph.

 

I'm happy to also measure performance with external I2S source, if someone wants to loan me such. But I'm personally not ready to pay for such given performance of the built-in USB. Both Spring and Cyan perform better with built-in USB than USB interface of many other DACs ("fs clocks" or not).

 

What I'm trying to say is that based on my experience there's really not much to complain about USB interface of Spring or Cyan.

 

Why not USB graph? I would like to see similar graphs with I2S for comparison.

 

[Solstice380]

1 hour ago, rafa said:

Well, the most important is what we hear from DAC, not what graphs tells you what you should hear  

 

You may remember the product “CD Stoplight” from the early days of CD, which was a green marker that was applied to the outer edge of a CD.  Many people believed that it made the SQ decidedly better.  It was later discovered by measurement that this increased the jitter significantly.  Peoples’ perception was being fooled.  If you want to know if the reason (cause) for a result is true to accurate reproduction then measurements are required.  

 

There are are many DACs with various inputs that don’t show any measurement anomalies.  I’d prefer those DACs and inputs.  If you have no measurement anomalies and bad sound, maybe it is another weak link in the system.

[matthias]

26 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

I'm happy to also measure performance with external I2S source, if someone wants to loan me such. But I'm personally not ready to pay for such given performance of the built-in USB. Both Spring and Cyan perform better with built-in USB than USB interface of many other DACs ("fs clocks" or not).

 

What I'm trying to say is that based on my experience there's really not much to complain about USB interface of Spring or Cyan.

 

Why not USB graph? I would like to see similar graphs with I2S for comparison.

 

 

+1

Just an addendum:

The USB interface of the Spring1 has been updated starting from February 2018:

https://kitsunehifi.com/product/holoaudioxu208usbmodule/

 

Matt

 

 

[rafa]

15 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

 

You may remember the product “CD Stoplight” from the early days of CD, which was a green marker that was applied to the outer edge of a CD.  Many people believed that it made the SQ decidedly better.  It was later discovered by measurement that this increased the jitter significantly.  Peoples’ perception was being fooled.  If you want to know if the reason (cause) for a result is true to accurate reproduction then measurements are required.  

 

There are are many DACs with various inputs that don’t show any measurement anomalies.  I’d prefer those DACs and inputs.  If you have no measurement anomalies and bad sound, maybe it is another weak link in the system.

So why I see vacuum tube gear in your signature ? You saying those tubes are technically better than transistors?  

[Solstice380]

38 minutes ago, rafa said:

So why I see vacuum tube gear in your signature ? You saying those tubes are technically better than transistors?  

 

That doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy it!  Besides that, a lot of tube gear these days measures nearly as well as solid state, and a lot of solid state stuff sounds like crap.  If we are looking at performance of various inputs and what impact they have on SQ it doesn’t matter tube or SS.  

 

Didn't you also see the dCS in my signature?  ?