Fas42’s Stereo ‘Magic’

[kumakuma]

1 minute ago, fas42 said:

 

And that tells you precisely what??

 

That his equipment exists.

 

At this point, you've done so much ducking and weaving that I starting to believe, like others, that this is all some elaborate prank.

 

If you can't show your system, show us some of the modifications you've made to the equipment that's no longer in operation. You mentioned that you've still got it all. 

 

[fas42]

1 hour ago, MarkusBarkus said:

Mr. fas43, of course you don't *have* to take photos.

Clearly, folks can discern you are a clever fellow, based on your use of language, and some of your legit comments re: audio stuff.
 

And as a clever fellow, on some level you must recognize you have been making extraordinary claims, and you have resisted providing any real details, a white paper/case study type of example to walk us through, or any relevant, insightful photos.

 

(Sigh) .....................

 

I have pointed to where I describe my journey with some pieces of gear, many, many times ... if you can't be bothered finding these, why should I need to hold your hand, to find out where the bathroom is?

 

Quote

 

If you have legitimate lines of enquiry and specific things you have done to spin flax into gold, EVERYONE, on this thread would love to run those tests for themselves. 
 

Many of us, certainly yours truly, are pulling for you to make the big reveal, but I fear instead you are actually pulling our respective legs, sir.

 

OK, the Klipsch man, who I just pointed to, is pulling everyone's leg, too ... right? You see, for him

 

Quote

I have been playing with very low order crossover filters...using the Xilica, having [extremely] low resulting phase growth and group delay...

 

Now, all you lot have to do is replicate that last move of his - and the 'magic' will happen, 🤣.

 

I wonder if the slightest bit of insight will creep in ... somehow, I doubt it .. 😉.

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

15 minutes ago, fas42 said:

I wonder if the slightest bit of insight will creep in ... somehow, I doubt it .. 😉.

🙄

[pkane2001]

9 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

At this point, you've done so much ducking and weaving that I starting to believe, like others, that this is all some elaborate prank.

 

 

Aww, you guys are just jealous of Frank’s superpower to extract amazing sound from boomboxes and laptop speakers. Next thing you’ll be questioning is if Superman can fly.

[fas42]

17 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

That his equipment exists.

 

At this point, you've done so much ducking and weaving that I starting to believe, like others, that this is all some elaborate prank.

 

If you can't show your system, show us some of the modifications you've made to the equipment that's no longer in operation. You mentioned that you've still got it all. 

 

 

Right, just went out and snapped it,

 

 

You lucky things, it's even time stamped, by what's on the telly ... now, everyone can go back to their kennels, 🙃.

[kumakuma]

1 minute ago, fas42 said:

 

Right, just went out and snapped it,

 

 

You lucky things, it's even time stamped, by what's on the telly ... now, everyone can go back to their kennels, 🙃.

 

Good on ya, Frank! 👍

 

Wow, you weren't joking about the piles of papers on the speakers. Do they really go to the ceiling?

[fas42]

1 minute ago, kumakuma said:

 

Good on ya, Frank! 👍

 

Wow, you weren't joking about the piles of papers on the speakers. Do they really go to the ceiling?

 

Nahhh!! 😉  ... a bit higher than what the pic shows - and I'm adding as some more papers turn up ... what's the point of "this nonsense"? It adds effective mass to the whole ensemble, and makes it easy to experiment with the amount one has. I used this simple kludge on the very first rig, and this was a huge part of improving the subjective bass of the presentation.

[MarkusBarkus]

10 minutes ago, fas42 said:

...now, everyone can go back to their kennels, 🙃.

Aarf. Aarf. The real magic is in the crystals! Secret revealed...

[kumakuma]

1 minute ago, MarkusBarkus said:

Aarf. Aarf. The real magic is in the crystals! Secret revealed...

 

You're just envious that Frank is allowed to do this kind of stuff.

 

I know how my missus would respond to this level of "passion". 👺

[fas42]

4 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

Aarf. Aarf. The real magic is in the crystals! Secret revealed...

 

Darn !!!! ... You got me ... 😁

[fas42]

2 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

You're just envious that Frank is allowed to do this kind of stuff.

 

I know how my missus would respond to this level of "passion". 👺

 

Bev loves what the sound does - for her, it's worth the "mess", because she gets to enjoy the results ... the long term promise, 😳, is that it "all gets tidied up", because I can package a solution, properly.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

2 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Right, just went out and snapped it,

 

 

You lucky things, it's even time stamped, by what's on the telly ... now, everyone can go back to their kennels, 🙃.

 

Well, congratulations Frank! This is a big milestone for you. So well done

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

 

 

 

I tried to brighten up and reduce the noise in the photo but with limited success. I think I can make out Toshiba name on the bottom right box. Frank, you may have mentioned the other components elsewhere, but can you list what the other boxes are in the audio chain?

What is that box directly under the Edifiers ? I presume the speakers at the bottom of the 'pedestal' stands are inactive?

[fas42]

Just found some referencing of this product, https://www.lessloss.com/update-firewall-for-loudspeakers-production-or-how-darpa-missed-the-audiophile-boat-a-158.html.

 

Is this just "snake oil"? Doubt it, they're going to a lot of trouble producing it ... so, what's it all about? Ummm, noise!! Audio rigs are bastards for picking up interference, from all sorts of things - and then not doing enough to stop such impacting sensitive internal areas. So just about anything you do to alter how much electrical noise is running around, that shouldn't be there, will alter the SQ - extremely compact, all-in-ones, like my active speakers get rid of of so many issues, by simplification - if all the guts of the rig are spread out, then interference has so many more avenues for getting in, and degrading the quality.

 

Should one use an expensive 'solution', like the Firewall? Depends upon everything, as always ... my preference is to work out a cheap DIY method that achieves the same ends; I've played with various ideas over the years, and have never found a 'perfect' method - I do something which is enough for the particular rig, at that time - most likely this could be improved; but my approach is always to work on what appears to be causing the worst loss of quality, at that stage of optimising.

[fas42]

21 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

 

 

I tried to brighten up and reduce the noise in the photo but with limited success. I think I can make out Toshiba name on the bottom right box. Frank, you may have mentioned the other components elsewhere, but can you list what the other boxes are in the audio chain?

What is that box directly under the Edifiers ? I presume the speakers at the bottom of the 'pedestal' stands are inactive?

 

The devices in the unit are, top left, an Aldi PVR, bottom left, an Aldi Blu-ray, top right, a Panasonic VHS unit - oh, horrors!! - bottom right, the Samsung DVD player. Only the Samsung is part of the rig, via an ordinary Toslink optical link to the right Edifier unit - electrically, everything else in the photo is about 100 metres away; only proximity, physically, can have some bearing on how the SQ is affected.

 

I've got it adjusted well enough so whether the TV, and the PVR are running - or, if I literally pull the cord out that feeds the TV side of things from the wall - makes negligible difference to the SQ ... further refining might make me change how I do things - something down the track, to see.

[fas42]

34 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

What is that box directly under the Edifiers ? I presume the speakers at the bottom of the 'pedestal' stands are inactive?

 

All explained here - the speakers are exactly the units shown,

 

 

Those old Technics have been used in a number of rig iterations - indeed, no longer active.

[fas42]

Technics were doing some pretty out there stuff, back then ...

 

https://www.technics.com/global/chronicle/sb-afp1000/

 

[fas42]

Just the thing to have in one's entrance foyer ...

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

2 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

 

 

I tried to brighten up and reduce the noise in the photo but with limited success. I think I can make out Toshiba name on the bottom right box. Frank, you may have mentioned the other components elsewhere, but can you list what the other boxes are in the audio chain?

What is that box directly under the Edifiers ? I presume the speakers at the bottom of the 'pedestal' stands are inactive?

 

Okay so your pedestals are a concrete paver with the old defunct Technics speaker cabinet with the separate tweeter box atop. If I were you I would get some reasonably priced concrete stands or plinths. Stone ones may also be good but more expensive.

 

 

 

This one was $55 in a place in Victoria. Obviously you could get them as plain or as elaborate looking as you want. Garden centres would have them but would charge a premium. I didn't see any such thing in Bunnings online. You could even fashion your own to get the exact height et cetera. I would aim to get the tweeter at ear level.

 

Those two cabinets and cone drivers are going to resonate. They would be the first thing I get rid of unless you think somehow there is some passive bass reinforcement from the driver in the technics but I strongly doubt that this will be contributing to good bass sound.

 

The second thing I would do, if I was inclined to believe the mass loading was making a difference atop the Edifiers, would be to replace the pile of paper with something like weight belts draped over the top. I know it's not about "bling" but there's got to be other options than the pile of papers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

I would also think about some kind of suspension like a DIY air bearing platform. You can buy a heavy duty bicycle inner tube for $10 at Kmart

if you look closely at my photos you will see finished platforms under each component including the 108 kg amplifier. They provide vertical isolation.

 

 

You can also get roller bearings for horizontal and rotational isolation but this is a bit more complicated and/or expensive (like roller blocks) or like I did, to get made up to spec

 

 

[fas42]

5 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Okay so your pedestals are a concrete paver with the old defunct Technics speaker cabinet with the separate tweeter box atop. If I were you I would get some reasonably priced concrete stands or plinths. Stone ones may also be good but more expensive.

 

Agree. For the original rig I built a stand out of concrete blocks, 'glued' together, and which almost exactly looked like the pic below. The hollow bits were filled with sand, it had nasty spikes inserted in the bottom, to couple with the concrete slab - you moved these, with exceeding care - because of the weight, and the preciousness of your feet, 😁.

 

5 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

 

 

This one was $55 in a place in Victoria. Obviously you could get them as plain or as elaborate looking as you want. Garden centres would have them but would charge a premium. I didn't see any such thing in Bunnings online. You could even fashion your own to get the exact height et cetera. I would aim to get the tweeter at ear level.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Those two cabinets and cone drivers are going to resonate. They would be the first thing I get rid of unless you think somehow there is some passive bass reinforcement from the driver in the technics but I strongly doubt that this will be contributing to good bass sound.

 

Yes, the 'pedestal' is far from ideal - but when I got the new Edifiers, I plunked them down in a convenient spot - which was on top of the old ones. So far, the issues that are most pressing are from other things - so, they get sorted first. If and when I get to the point that it make sense to improve the supporting structure, I'll do that. And, I still have those original concrete pillars - outside, one bit's come off .. most likely they will be what's brought into play.

 

5 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

The second thing I would do, if I was inclined to believe the mass loading was making a difference atop the Edifiers, would be to replace the pile of paper with something like weight belts draped over the top. I know it's not about "bling" but there's got to be other options than the pile of papers.

 

 

The paper is freely available, easy to adjust - it's a no-brainer, for the moment. N. up the road has used tie down straps, the ones you get at Bunnings, etc, to lock the tiny Tannoys down on top of the conventional steel pillars he uses. We spent some hours fine tuning precisely how to do this - the slightest variation can make a major difference to the sound ... experiment, experiment, experiment.

[fas42]

17 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I would also think about some kind of suspension like a DIY air bearing platform. You can buy a heavy duty bicycle inner tube for $10 at Kmart

if you look closely at my photos you will see finished platforms under each component including the 108 kg amplifier. They provide vertical isolation.

 

My philosophy is different. @shtf believes in mass loading of the components, and I agree. Has to be done right, there are no simple "This is the way it should be done!" approaches, I believe - my ol' faithfuls are viscoelastic sponge, and Blu-Tack; both are often brought into play. I would suggest that every rig has different needs, so what works for one, may not in another.

 

Quote

 

 

 

You can also get roller bearings for horizontal and rotational isolation but this is a bit more complicated and/or expensive (like roller blocks) or like I did, to get made up to spec

 

 

 

N. has done quite a bit of experimenting with the roller thing - but I'm not convinced. The big problem is that dirt gets into them - and the slightest bit of detritus kills the action that's so important - we've had sessions where the sound has not been good, and I expressed concern about those roller devices. He immediately went over, thoroughly cleaned them ... Bingo! Good sound was back - so, it becomes a maintenance issue - another headache ...

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

The big problem is that dirt gets into them - and the slightest bit of detritus kills the action that's so important

 

I have never experienced this. Perhaps my balls are dust repellent😂 or perhaps because they sit under and support lightweight ceramic tiles which provide a sort of dust cover. Perhaps because the balls are large enough that tiny flecks of dust make no practical difference. Whatever the case it is not an issue. All you have to do is apply the slightest force to tell that the system is moving (rolling) perfectly fine.

 

You talk about mass loading and when you talk about mass, I think about physics.

 

One issue to consider before vibration and resonance is driver motion in relation to the cabinets.

An ideal driver would have no mass and it would be anchored to a cabinet of infinite immovable mass. Both these conditions are not possible. So as the driver is thrust forward the cabinet tends to be moved in the opposite direction and vice versa. This is obviously not desirable and will reduce the overall efficiency for the speaker to produce accurate sound pressure waves. In the real world this is mainly a problem for woofers that not only have higher mass than smaller drivers but move relatively larger volumes of air generating a reverse thrust. For practical purposes, cabinets of  substantial mass compared to the driver and mass loading the cabinet/friction to the ground does the trick. Lashing it to the ground or a heavy object would presumably also help but mainly only for small or lightweight speakers.Speaker designers like Vivid can use lighter cabinetry and get around the problem with the self-cancelling or reaction cancelling mechanism of the woofers (I am told like the 180° opposed cylinders in the flat 12 engine of a Ferrari boxer).

 

Another point to consider with driver motion relates to the damping factor of the amplifier – part of what some might call it overall "grip". After returning from an excursion the driver wants to oscillate around its resting position and a good amplifier will put a stop to this.

 

Resonance is another topic. There is transmission of vibrations going to the speakers and there are vibrations generated inside the cabinet. Vibrations in the cabinet will be minimised in a well-designed speaker with choice of material, internal bracing and whatever other features.

 

 

For practical purposes  you can either isolate (decouple) or dampen (absorb) vibrations by coupling it to something. Obviously isolation is the ideal, the disturbing vibration never reaches the object that is prone to resonate.

 

Intuitively most people understand damping as absorbing the energy. From a physics point of view it will be reducing the amplitude of the vibration by converting kinetic energy into heat energy.

 

Isolation basically stops the transmission of the disturbing vibration rather than trying to absorb (damp) it. So it's like a low pass filter that doesn't allow vibration to pass through. As if the piece of equipment atop the isolator is "floating" immune from the effects of the vibration.

 

As it happens this will occur when the resonant frequency of the isolating system is significantly lower than the disturbing vibration. So if the resonant frequency of the isolator is 10 Hz, pretty much everything below 10 Hz will pass through, and above 10 Hz vibrations start getting attenuated.

 

If nothing passes through the isolator then there is little need for damping, indeed damping can be counter-productive in these circumstances (with a dampener potentially acting as a strut and presenting a path for coupling the vibrations).

 

At the natural frequency of the isolation system (not below or above) things start getting a bit trickier.  Suffice to say that damping is required at that point.

 

Regarding the usual suspects on vibration control in audio equipment –

 

Spike/cones generally act as couplers not decouple/isolators. The equipment sitting atop of the spikes shake in unison with the spike.

 

Pucks - Using such things as soft sorbathane pucks and the like will provide some isolation but the resonant frequency is generally too high. It won't stop the transmission of the lower frequencies which is really what you want.

 

Mass loading and Platforms - Great big heavy slabs of mass loading will presumably lower the resonant frequency of the system a bit and maybe add some damping at the expense of also providing a conduit for vibrations below the resonant frequency i.e. coupling. What you want in a platform is high rigidity and low mass which is relatively inert e.g. doesn't “ring” when you tap it. In cheap practical terms this can be a ceramic wall or floor tile. However this does not address the vibration issue, merely support the structure. You need to put something under the platform to provide horizontal and vertical isolation.

 

Vertical isolation can be supplied by such things as springs or something like a springy inner tube. There is a lot written about the physics and engineering of incorporating springs in an isolation system. You need a low spring constant to produce a low-frequency resonance but springs with a high enough spring constant to support much weight has a fairly high resonance. Euler springs seem to get around this problem and there have been other solutions advocated but it all seems a bit fiddly and too difficult (for me). The inner tube method however works well and is easy to do at very minimal cost.

 

For the horizontal and rotary isolation I use a ball bearing based "roller bearing" solution. They effectively decouple and isolate. As the "world" moves underneath, the gear on top does not.

[fas42]

3 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

I have never experienced this. Perhaps my balls are dust repellent😂 or perhaps because they sit under and support lightweight ceramic tiles which provide a sort of dust cover. Perhaps because the balls are large enough that tiny flecks of dust make no practical difference. Whatever the case it is not an issue. All you have to do is apply the slightest force to tell that the system is moving (rolling) perfectly fine.

 

I'm sure that if one goes to enough effort, then issues like dist contamination can be contained. But philosophically I don't see the value in using this type of isolation technique, so haven't pursued it.

 

3 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

You talk about mass loading and when you talk about mass, I think about physics.

 

As do I.

 

3 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

One issue to consider before vibration and resonance is driver motion in relation to the cabinets.

An ideal driver would have no mass and it would be anchored to a cabinet of infinite immovable mass. Both these conditions are not possible. So as the driver is thrust forward the cabinet tends to be moved in the opposite direction and vice versa. This is obviously not desirable and will reduce the overall efficiency for the speaker to produce accurate sound pressure waves. In the real world this is mainly a problem for woofers that not only have higher mass than smaller drivers but move relatively larger volumes of air generating a reverse thrust. For practical purposes, cabinets of  substantial mass compared to the driver and mass loading the cabinet/friction to the ground does the trick. Lashing it to the ground or a heavy object would presumably also help but mainly only for small or lightweight speakers.Speaker designers like Vivid can use lighter cabinetry and get around the problem with the self-cancelling or reaction cancelling mechanism of the woofers (I am told like the 180° opposed cylinders in the flat 12 engine of a Ferrari boxer).

 

To me an ideal ideal driver would have the magnet area of the frame coupled fully with the mass of the earth. Which means that there is effectively zero motion of that frame, irrespective of the driving force imparted to the cone's coil. One can get something very much like that with clever design - the question is, how much stabilising is needed, how much is good enough?  So far, everything IME has demonstrated the greater the mass loading, the more compelling the SQ, the bigger the sound picture, the more authoritative the bass line.

 

Opposing motion of woofer cones make excellent sense; the concern I would have is that the forces on the cabinet would tend to make it vibrate regardless - coupling to a high mass provides a mechanism for damping, or transferring that energy to where it causes minimal audible impact.

 

3 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

Resonance is another topic. There is transmission of vibrations going to the speakers and there are vibrations generated inside the cabinet. Vibrations in the cabinet will be minimised in a well-designed speaker with choice of material, internal bracing and whatever other features.

 

 

For practical purposes  you can either isolate (decouple) or dampen (absorb) vibrations by coupling it to something. Obviously isolation is the ideal, the disturbing vibration never reaches the object that is prone to resonate.

 

Intuitively most people understand damping as absorbing the energy. From a physics point of view it will be reducing the amplitude of the vibration by converting kinetic energy into heat energy.

 

Isolation basically stops the transmission of the disturbing vibration rather than trying to absorb (damp) it. So it's like a low pass filter that doesn't allow vibration to pass through. As if the piece of equipment atop the isolator is "floating" immune from the effects of the vibration.

 

As it happens this will occur when the resonant frequency of the isolating system is significantly lower than the disturbing vibration. So if the resonant frequency of the isolator is 10 Hz, pretty much everything below 10 Hz will pass through, and above 10 Hz vibrations start getting attenuated.

 

If nothing passes through the isolator then there is little need for damping, indeed damping can be counter-productive in these circumstances (with a dampener potentially acting as a strut and presenting a path for coupling the vibrations).

 

At the natural frequency of the isolation system (not below or above) things start getting a bit trickier.  Suffice to say that damping is required at that point.

 

Regarding the usual suspects on vibration control in audio equipment –

 

Spike/cones generally act as couplers not decouple/isolators. The equipment sitting atop of the spikes shake in unison with the spike.

 

Pucks - Using such things as soft sorbathane pucks and the like will provide some isolation but the resonant frequency is generally too high. It won't stop the transmission of the lower frequencies which is really what you want.

 

Mass loading and Platforms - Great big heavy slabs of mass loading will presumably lower the resonant frequency of the system a bit and maybe add some damping at the expense of also providing a conduit for vibrations below the resonant frequency i.e. coupling. What you want in a platform is high rigidity and low mass which is relatively inert e.g. doesn't “ring” when you tap it. In cheap practical terms this can be a ceramic wall or floor tile. However this does not address the vibration issue, merely support the structure. You need to put something under the platform to provide horizontal and vertical isolation.

 

Vertical isolation can be supplied by such things as springs or something like a springy inner tube. There is a lot written about the physics and engineering of incorporating springs in an isolation system. You need a low spring constant to produce a low-frequency resonance but springs with a high enough spring constant to support much weight has a fairly high resonance. Euler springs seem to get around this problem and there have been other solutions advocated but it all seems a bit fiddly and too difficult (for me). The inner tube method however works well and is easy to do at very minimal cost.

 

For the horizontal and rotary isolation I use a ball bearing based "roller bearing" solution. They effectively decouple and isolate. As the "world" moves underneath, the gear on top does not.

 

The whole business of coupling versus isolation gets very complicated, very quickly. Personally, mass works - and that's what I go with ... if the engineering of components was good enough, none of this would matter. But it does - so if experimentation says one way works better than another, then that way is right for that situation.

[botrytis]

14 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Right, so you haven't read a single post on my Edifying Journey thread - smart move ...

 

I have this whole thread. You just haven't said anything . You think you are communicating but obfuscation is not communication. There was NO METHOD mentioned, just tons of hyperbole.

 

You talk about how you tweaked your system and it is inexpensive but then wax poetic about expensive systems. Which is it?