Fas42’s Stereo ‘Magic’

[sandyk]

20 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

You know, you've already got clips of earlier systems running on my YT channel - no problems with ambient noise there, I run the volumes at levels such that that's not a factor.

 Ambient noise level is ALWAYS a factor when making recordings, whether it's from musicians in the room, or the output of a pair of speakers.

 Even Air Conditioning running in Quiet Mode can mask low level detail as David can verify from a listening session at his previous address.

" in a recording studio we aim to have a low dB SPL when everything is quiet. You are limited by air conditioning noise and other external sounds. A good number to shoot for is 20–30 dB SPL, C weighted."

 That is likely to be at least 20dB less than at your place with the neighbours at work.

[acg]

5 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

It's not really evident in the photo but the stand under the Mephisto is buckling

 

Warning....Off topic!!

 

David, nice to see your room.  Nearly made it to see you a few years back and I will have to get down that way once this pandemic is over.  I helped lug around a different Gryphon amplifier for a friend and it was tremendously heavy, sort of like this one I suppose at about 100kg.  No wonder the table is buckling!

 

Love this new technology getting the size and weight down.  My power amps are a four box affair, two power supplies (100kg each) and two monoblocs (150kg each) totalling 250kg each side (500kg total)...all diy...and across all twelve channels of single ended triodes would be lucky to make a total of 30watts.  In the running for the worst power to weight ratio on the planet I reckon but they do sound "real" and like yours I doubt my wife could toss them out even if she wanted to...haha.  Truly excellent room warmer in winter too.

[fas42]

9 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Ambient noise level is ALWAYS a factor when making recordings, whether it's from musicians in the room, or the output of a pair of speakers.

" in a recording studio we aim to have a low dB SPL when everything is quiet. You are limited by air conditioning noise and other external sounds. A good number to shoot for is 20–30 dB SPL, C weighted."

 

But the point of the recording is demonstrate characteristics of the SQ, not to have exceptional signal to noise ratios - last time I checked, I didn't notice street buskers being given the cold shoulder by passersby - because they were disturbed by surrounding noises.

 

If someone can't bear listening to a recording because there is "too much noise", then I would suggest they have some type of hearing weakness; or the quality of the playback is too poor.

 

I typically run at volumes where it's impossible to hear the phone if it rings, say  - whatever dB that translates to.

[sandyk]

Quote

I typically run at volumes where it's impossible to hear the phone if it rings, say  - whatever dB that translates to.

I guess that explains a lot ! 😀

It's impossible to demonstrate the subtle superiorities of a high quality playback system unless the recordings of it in action are of a very high quality.as well .

[acg]

41 minutes ago, fas42 said:

I typically run at volumes where it's impossible to hear the phone if it rings, say  - whatever dB that translates to.

 

I measured my normal "loud" listening volume at 105dB peaks... but I still hear the phone when it rings. 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

32 minutes ago, acg said:

 

Warning....Off topic!!

 

David, nice to see your room.  Nearly made it to see you a few years back and I will have to get down that way once this pandemic is over.  I helped lug around a different Gryphon amplifier for a friend and it was tremendously heavy, sort of like this one I suppose at about 100kg.  No wonder the table is buckling!

 

Love this new technology getting the size and weight down.  My power amps are a four box affair, two power supplies (100kg each) and two monoblocs (150kg each) totalling 250kg each side (500kg total)...all diy...and across all twelve channels of single ended triodes would be lucky to make a total of 30watts.  In the running for the worst power to weight ratio on the planet I reckon but they do sound "real" and like yours I doubt my wife could toss them out even if she wanted to...haha.  Truly excellent room warmer in winter too.

 

Hi Anthony,

wow, that's some pretty impressive weight in those amplifiers! My Mephisto weighs in at a puny 108 kg!! It is the stereo version. I could have gone for mono blocks (doubling the weight ha ha) but it still wouldn't come close to yours. I previously owned the reference one Gryphon mono blocks. I didn't need mono blocks this time especially since I upgraded to the Vivid speakers.

 

I am now in the Hunter Valley and if I recall correctly you are up Toowoomba way. We must catch up one day after the big V is gone.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 minute ago, acg said:

 

I measured my normal "loud" listening volume at 105dB peaks... but I still hear the phone when it rings. 

 

That's your tinnitus you are hearing! Have you ever wondered why there is no one at the other end of the phone?🤣

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

49 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

But the point of the recording is demonstrate characteristics of the SQ, not to have exceptional signal to noise ratios - last time I checked, I didn't notice street buskers being given the cold shoulder by passersby - because they were disturbed by surrounding noises.

 

If someone can't bear listening to a recording because there is "too much noise", then I would suggest they have some type of hearing weakness; or the quality of the playback is too poor.

 

 I solved the busker problem by not letting them into my listening room😁

 

49 minutes ago, fas42 said:

I typically run at volumes where it's impossible to hear the phone if it rings, say  - whatever dB that translates to.

 

 

The translation is .....too loud🤣,! Unless the phone is kept at that neighbours place you keep mentioning🤣

 

[acg]

32 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

That's your tinnitus you are hearing! Have you ever wondered why there is no one at the other end of the phone?🤣

 

My point without actually making it is that most speakers cannot play that loud to start with without falling apart due to distortion,  compression, bottoming out,  port chuffing et cetera.  Some can... but they are large speakers usually with pro drivers.   My speakers can because they are enormous and pull maybe 0.3watts for those peaks. 

 

The reason Frank can't hear the phone is probably because of distortion,  compression,  bottoming out and so on... the physical constraints of the loudspeaker at those volumes... and for me that cannot be convincing sound on any level because that is make your ears hurt kind of sound not good sound. 

 

Probably. 

 

Either that or he uses the neighbours phone like you say...

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

23 minutes ago, acg said:

My point without actually making it is that most speakers cannot play that loud to start with without falling apart due to distortion,  compression, bottoming out,  port chuffing et cetera.  Some can... but they are large speakers usually with pro drivers.   My speakers can because they are enormous and pull maybe 0.3watts for those peaks. 

 

The reason Frank can't hear the phone is probably because of distortion,  compression,  bottoming out and so on... the physical constraints of the loudspeaker at those volumes... and for me that cannot be convincing sound on any level because that is make your ears hurt kind of sound not good sound. 

 

So something like these bookshelf speakers should do the trick, right?🙄🤷‍♂️

 

[acg]

38 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

So something like these bookshelf speakers should do the trick, right?🙄🤷‍♂️

 

 

I don't know what they are...but no...no bookshelf on the planet can play that loud and make "music" although of course many can make "noises" that loud.

 

I've just purchased some monitors to use as surround speakers because I don't have enough time to make some, plus I reckon others will get this type of small speaker better than I could ever hope.

 

 

8" woofer, compression driver on the waveguide, 2 x 250w amplifier built in, EQ, rated to 108dB continuous which is probably a stretch.  Never heard them but if anything "small" is going to be close to ok with making loud "music" it is most likely to be something like this but high passed quite high, say around 100Hz at a guess to try to take the excursion out of the woofer.  Am waiting for cables to turn up and will play around with them for a while to see what they are capable of before putting them into home theatre duties.

 

Would have prefered 10" or 12" woofer and waveguide but just not enough room where they would have to go behind me.

 

EDIT:  I should add that if you look at the Fletcher Munson curves of equal loudness that you will see that as you go up in overall volume how much bass you hear increases much, much faster than how much mids and highs you hear.  A really good sound system as it gets louder and louder will get a "softer" sound because we are hearing proportionally more and more bass.  Think about what we are missing out on if the sound does not get "softer" as it gets louder...because it should.

 

[fas42]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

I guess that explains a lot ! 😀

It's impossible to demonstrate the subtle superiorities of a high quality playback system unless the recordings of it in action are of a very high quality.as well .

 

Alex, it depends upon the recording! If you're playing a pub rocker, with driving guitar, the average sound level guarantees that something as low energy as a phone ring won't be picked up, in the listening. But a classical piece, played at the same volume setting, will have the dynamic range of the live event - and a solo violin interlude certainly won't mask the phone ringing

 

What competent sound delivers is the impact of live sound - which can be the shimmering of a lone triangle, lightly struck; or the raw power of a grand crescendo - it's the spanning of the full range that works as an experience.

[fas42]

1 hour ago, acg said:

 

My point without actually making it is that most speakers cannot play that loud to start with without falling apart due to distortion,  compression, bottoming out,  port chuffing et cetera.  Some can... but they are large speakers usually with pro drivers.   My speakers can because they are enormous and pull maybe 0.3watts for those peaks. 

 

Yes, the sound often falls apart - but the real culprit is the amplifier. This is something I cottoned on to decades ago - I had a CD which I took around to all the audio shops, and their setups uniformly started to collapse well short of what I was after, irrespective of size of speaker, etc. At home, I played it on the my B&W bookshelfs, smallest in the range, which easily handled the drive - the amp I was using was a decent one, and did the job much better.

 

1 hour ago, acg said:

 

The reason Frank can't hear the phone is probably because of distortion,  compression,  bottoming out and so on... the physical constraints of the loudspeaker at those volumes... and for me that cannot be convincing sound on any level because that is make your ears hurt kind of sound not good sound. 

 

No, one's ears automatically adjust the internal gain to match the volume of the music - same thing that occurs as for intense, live sound.

 

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

10 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Yes, the sound often falls apart - but the real culprit is the amplifier. This is something I cottoned on to decades ago - I had a CD which I took around to all the audio shops, and their setups uniformly started to collapse well short of what I was after, irrespective of size of speaker, etc. At home, I played it on the my B&W bookshelfs, smallest in the range, which easily handled the drive - the amp I was using was a decent one, and did the job much better.

 

 

No, one's ears automatically adjust the internal gain to match the volume of the music - same thing that occurs as for intense, live sound.

 

 

🤣

[fas42]

The speakers are by Edifier, and they are the most impressive bit of kit I've come across, as value for money units. This is the first time I've had to do something to tame the bass, which was just too intense on some tracks; I haven't pushed them to the limits of what volumes they can pump out, as yet, but they can go to as loud as one would want in a room, with no signs of stress, etc.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 minute ago, fas42 said:

The speakers are by Edifier, and they are the most impressive bit of kit I've come across, as value for money units. This is the first time I've had to do something to tame the bass, which just too intense on some tracks; I haven't pushed them to the limits of what volumes they can pump out, as yet, but they can to loud as one would want in a room, with no signs of stress, etc.

 

We look forward to the video Frank

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

4 minutes ago, fas42 said:

I've had to do something to tame the bass, which just too intense on some tracks

 

You can't tame what is not there.

[fas42]

You know, David, one has to be motivated to go to some effort in creating something - and if all one sees is unintelligent posturing, then the motivation is going to evaporate, very fast.

[fas42]

3 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

You can't tame what is not there.

 

Working hard to kill it, eh ...

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 minute ago, fas42 said:

You know, David, one has to be motivated to go to some effort in creating something - and if all one sees is unintelligent posturing, then the motivation is going to evaporate, very fast.

 

"and if all one sees is unintelligent posturing" we need the video and pics to set us on the path to righteousness

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

2 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Working hard to kill it, eh ...

 

you can't kill what never existed🙄

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

42 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Yes, the sound often falls apart - but the real culprit is the amplifier. This is something I cottoned on to decades ago - I had a CD which I took around to all the audio shops, and their setups uniformly started to collapse well short of what I was after, irrespective of size of speaker, etc. At home, I played it on the my B&W bookshelfs, smallest in the range, which easily handled the drive - the amp I was using was a decent one, and did the job much better.

 

Frank, do you read the stuff you write?

[Confused]

12 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Okay, my verdict is that plenty is being got right - certainly a much higher standard than usually heard in these situations. But there is still a signature, which, as usual, is a negative one as far as the subjective qualities are concerned - can anyone pick what to me is a very clear audible giveaway to weaknesses in the state of tune of the system, at that time of the recording?

To be honest, I cannot.  However, if you advise what you are picking up, it might provide some clarity as to how and what you are picking up as weaknesses based on YouTube clips.  This might be enlightening.

[Confused]

4 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

I typically run at volumes where it's impossible to hear the phone if it rings, say  - whatever dB that translates to.

Maybe your phone is unambitious or needs sorting?

 

Or maybe it is far away?

[botrytis]

6 hours ago, fas42 said:

You know, if I said my rig cost $200,000, say, no-one would blink an eyelid - the really, really disturbing thing, for them, is that I mention numbers say under $1,000 ...people are obsessed with the need for stuff that can do "special things" costing big bucks ... otherwise the universe might end tomorrow, because all the 'natural' laws are being broken ... 🙂.

 

No Frank, that is not how it works. The really disturbing thing is people HAVE put their cards on the table and you are still holding yours. I mean, mine is in my signature and I have put mine up, which isn't fancy at all.In fact, except for the speakers (some speakers not all), most of my equipment I bought used. I am not embarrassed and neither should you. Let's see it.