A proposal: the Objectivist Audio Review magazine

[Jud]

3 hours ago, wgscott said:

Its value is primarily the measurements that are performed on various pieces of equipment (which in general are far more informative than single blind or double blind tests).

 

I would have been less likely to purchase my DAC (Teac NT-503) had I seen those measurements to begin with.  The poor quality of the DSD-upsampling was particularly eye-opening.  (I can pat myself on the back for having subjectively detected that there was something amiss with this before I saw the measurements.)

 

I like to look at the actual data -- the primary measurements, and to make up my own mind.  I fully understand the difference between that and subjective commentary and interpretation.

 

Apologies for the momentary OT: That's why if I were using that DAC, I'd do the DSD modulation outboard.  I realize you like using room EQ software.  Don't know if A+ will work with that and upsample the result to DSD yet, but HQPlayer might.  That (convolution and DSD upsampling combined in HQP) requires a fairly stout computer.

 

On topic again: Yes, it would be nice to have something devoted to measurements.  Do you think this would be entertaining/interesting enough to stay afloat?  (Don't know what Archimago is doing about finances, and I'm supposing the range of equipment available to any one individual who'd want to do this is limited.)  Regarding blind testing, that doesn't feel terribly valuable to me.  I agree that I'd prefer to see measurements.

 

What I'd really love to see are reviews that are critical and entertainingly written (that was The Absolute Sound for about 5 minutes in the early days before it took advertising).  I don't care about subjectivity.  As with the subjective threads on this site, you learn soon enough whose taste you share/trust, and whose you disagree with.

 

The other thing that would be valuable to me is entertaining and informative explanation and/or deconstruction of manufacturer marketing.  Does the circuitry in that amp or its class of operation make a difference to anything, and if so what?

 

That's a lot of expertise in service to a very small niche market of audiophiles, so difficult for me to imagine it happening.

[Jud]

2 minutes ago, christopher3393 said:

 

Is taking advertising generally harmful to the critical quality of an audiophile mag.?

 

Going by the history, I'd have to say yes in the high end audio world. The NY Times, Wall Street Journal, etc., can afford to have a few advertisers PO'd at them.  There are fewer advertisers to choose from in audiophiledom, and news that you've given someone a poor review travels fast in a small fraternity.

[Jud]

By the way: "Objective" can be branding and marketing as well.  My Facebook feed contains a Massdrop-sponsored ad for NwAVGuy's Objective 2 headphone amp that starts with this modest objective statement from someone who apparently works in the hardware/software engineering field: "Literally the best value headphone amplifier in existence."

 

 

[Jud]

1 hour ago, wgscott said:

Empirical evidence is the basis for any experimental science, like chemistry, physics, biology, etc.

 

I think you are confusing it with anecdotal evidence, which is also a subset of empirical evidence (but is not considered to be the basis of any well-established field of science).

 

Not to say anecdotal evidence can't be a spur for hypothesis formulation in scientific or science-related fields, but for actually testing hypotheses you need more.

[Jud]

2 hours ago, wgscott said:

Although I think it is quite possible for something to measure well but sound terrible, I'm not sure there are many examples of the opposite -- things that measure quite poorly but sound wonderful (unless it is euphonic distortion, so maybe we should add in accurate reproduction).  

 

In other words, good measurements are probably a necessary but not a sufficient condition.

 

I don't know - I still love music from my LPs.

[Jud]

13 minutes ago, mansr said:

Those are mostly the result of room reflections.

 

I don't doubt that rooms play a very large role. Yet there are recordings that perform very specific depth, soundstage, etc., "tricks," that do these things consistently in a variety of rooms. I'd suppose therefore that phase and timing are also involved.

[Jud]

39 minutes ago, mansr said:

Yes, things like QSound can manipulate the perception in various ways. DACs do not differ in ways that would produce such effects.

 

For example: My speakers, to which I'm very accustomed, have linear phase crossovers, and the drivers and setup instructions regarding positioning are intended to have all frequencies arrive at the listening position at roughly the same time.  When I listen with minimum phase filtering with its group delay, I fancy I can hear this messing up the imaging and soundstage.  (I've even done just a couple of blind tests and have passed, though I have no idea whether I'd be able to do so in a more rigorous test.)  

 

Perhaps I'm imagining things, but let's say for the sake of argument I'm not.  If I didn't know about and chose not to use software filtering,  and I listened to two DACs in my system, one using minimum phase filtering and the other using linear phase, perhaps I'd feel the latter had better soundstage and imaging. 

[Jud]

15 minutes ago, lmitche said:

 

Are you saying that you don't think that USB cables change aspects of sound quality like clarity, soundstage, depth, perceived height, openness, and detail?

 

5 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Your own hearing is likely much better than mine.

 

I thought music with the cable @lmitche made for me with $20-$30 worth of parts (starting with a $12.99 USB cable) had greater soundstage depth than with the $135 cable I'd been using for 6 years. 

 

Purely subjective and sighted, of course, though I will tell you it was quite unexpected.

[Jud]

Anyhow, we're beginning to diverge from the topic. I can feel it, Dave, I can feel it.

[Jud]

Just now, lmitche said:

  Thank you for shopping with us. You ordered   "StarTech.com SuperSpeed 

View or manage your orders in Your Order

Details
Order #
    Arriving:
    Tuesday, April 3 -  Friday, April 6

    Ship to:
    Larry

    Total Before Tax: $9.68                      
    Estimated Tax: $0.00

    Order Total: $9.68

 

You cheaped out on me! I thought it was the $12.99 one!    

[Jud]

1 minute ago, jabbr said:

 

I don't doubt the hearing, but given my own religious faith in Maxwell, I am led to an attempt to explain using electromagnetic mechanisms.

 

Yep. First two places I would look are phase behavior and low level noise - but then I know next to nothing about audio, so those are the only two things I can think of.  

[Jud]

10 minutes ago, jabbr said:

I got the observation!

 

You sure? 'Cause I have a feeling @lmitche may have more.  

[Jud]

46 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Ok, reasonable issues to look at (seriously) so let's think about this ... DC power cable affects phase behavior ... how? Low level noise is very easy to measure ... so ... ?

 

(these are the questions that are compelled in my mind ...)

 

DC power? I was talking about a USB cable. (Just mentioning this, as I have no idea whether it would affect the analysis one way or another.)

[Jud]

45 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Maybe I know too many reasons why my own ears as interpreted by my own brain may not be empirically accurate.

 

Oh heck yeah.  I'm not making truth claims, just talking about sense impressions that raise interesting questions - part of what makes the hobby fun for a dabbler like me.

 

Even if I'm deluding myself, there's this joke I like:

 

Parents take their son to a psychiatrist, tell him their son thinks he's a chicken.

 

The psychiatrist says he can cure the son quickly. The parents hesitate, and the psychiatrist asks why. 

 

"Well," says the father, "we like the eggs."

 

Even if I'm deluding myself, I like the eggs, er, the sound.

[Jud]

18 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Ah ok! I trust @PeterSt to be sufficiently compulsive that I use the Lush with his NOS1a and I use the straightline Uptone  USB connector between the ISO Regen and my iFi DAC.

 

I'd certainly try a $12.99 USB cable instead with my iFi.

 

I use the cable in between the microRendu and the DAC; I use the straightline Uptone connector between the ISO Regen and microRendu.

 

Edit: Sorry, the USB cable is from the Regen to the DAC. Thanks to @lmitche for making me aware of the error.

[Jud]

32 minutes ago, Milt99 said:

I'm with beerandmusic here to a point:

The recording is everything.

 

32 minutes ago, Milt99 said:

Jud, I personally haven't played vinyl since 1986, but I do have a couple vinylite Pals & I've listened to their & my vinyl and much of it sounds great. 

 

I think the one has an awful lot to do with the other.  The LPs I like better than digital are due to masterings I prefer.

[Jud]

4 minutes ago, lmitche said:

I find it best to use an usbpcb out of the pc into the Iso Regen and then USB cable from the Iso Regen to the ifi DAC.

 

Thanks, yes, this is actually pretty much equivalent to what I'm doing (the microRendu taking the place of the PC), and I've now edited the post you quoted to reflect that.

[Jud]

6 hours ago, crenca said:

the hobby itself becomes a living parody of ostentatious wealth

 

Meanwhile I'm talking about a $12.99 cable, that actually turns out to be under $10.  What did all your pairs of headphones cost in total (I have one pair I bought on sale from Amazon for something like $160, as I recall)?  When you talk about a parody of ostentatious wealth, who are you thinking of, and if it's others besides yourself, (1) Why are you so concerned about other people's money? and (2) Do you think other people purchasing expensive cars, bikes, boats, wine, etc., is something to be criticized or particularly concerned about? If not, what brings in audiophiles for special anger, and then why would you spend your time hanging out at a place that makes you angry?

[Jud]

8 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

Hi @Jud, ... "The cable" ?

 

Yes, actually between the ISO Regen and the DAC - an inexpensive version of the "JSSG360" cable @lmitche sent me.

[Jud]

7 hours ago, crenca said:

 

 

Two anecdotal testimonies in support of the Audiophile subjectivist status quo.  It's almost as if the topic is "A proposal: the Subjectivist Audio Review magazine"...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't know about you, but we're a couple of folks having some fun with a hobby, in my case with a $10 cable.  If this makes your head explode, perhaps deep calming breaths will help.

[Jud]

24 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Yeah, the iFi Micro has that reversed USB connector so I use a DragonTail

 

I know, they couldn't do what everyone else does, right?  @lmitche thoughtfully included a little USB3 male B to female USB A adapter with the cable.

 

Edit: Sheesh - sorry, female B to female A.

[Jud]

1 minute ago, crenca said:

 

Truly, you have never seen me angry ?

 

It is frustrating though that you and a handful of others have derailed the topic to such an extent.  This particular cheap mod/Lush cable subjective testimony has already sidetracked two other threads that I am familiar with and I would not be surprised if there are more.  I am quite tolerant of levity, tangents, tangents of tangents but you guys REALLY need your own thread about this.  How about I do you and the others a solid and create a thread titled "On Topic:  Lush mod subjective testimony"?  

 

@The Computer Audiophile had suggested a week or so ago (two maybe?) a modification that allows thread creator's much more significant moderation, including the ability to delete posts.  I would normally be against this as I think forums in general suffer from over moderation on the whole.  However, you guys are changing my mind.  This is @christopher3393thread however and he may be perfectly fine with the last several pages of posts.

 

I wasn't talking about the Lush.  But the cable conversation is OT, yes, as I commented myself earlier, though people were curious and asked questions and I answered.  I believe it began with folks talking about soundstage and whether it would be possible to have objective measurements pertaining to it.  Along the way, in response to a post saying a component like a DAC would not affect soundstage (and thus presumably no objective measurements of DAC characteristics would be relevant), I mentioned, in addition to a response discussing phase and timing, that I thought this cheap cable had affected soundstage in my system, for the better as it turned out.

 

You then provided a couple of responses, including the "this hobby is a parody of ostentatious wealth" response, which as I recall is quite similar to posts you've made in numerous other threads.

 

So let's get back on topic.  Near the start of the thread, I said one of the things any objective review magazine would need to have in order for me to want to read it would be entertaining writing.  I've mentioned several times that HP's acid-pen reviews in TAS before it began accepting advertising were great fun.  To me, that's the real divide - between folks who want a hobby that's fun, and folks who want to take things too seriously.  It seems to me many reviewers take themselves too seriously in a positive sense, and many folks here take them too seriously in a negative sense.  A pox on both their houses.  I'm doing this to enjoy the music and enjoy puttering about a bit, hopefully to learn a lot from folks who know a lot more than I do, because that's probably my favorite thing in life.  Guess I just have difficulty understanding the reason why other folks don't seem to be having fun with this.

[Jud]

4 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Ok ... well I don’t notice a “weird” and certainly not “VERY weird” piano sound with the Lush alone ... perhaps I need to remove the piano sound normalizer from my frontal cortex? Or perhaps I should show you how to use your own cortical circuits?

 

I guess I have to test the Lush +|- ISO now ...

 

I do from time to time wonder how much of a subjective difference is due not only to objective system differences, but due to the objective differences among the ways different human beings hear.

[Jud]

1 minute ago, crenca said:

None of this does not mean people such as myself or others such as mansr are not having fun.

 

OK.  You've called the hobby a "parody" and a "disease" in this thread alone.  I didn't realize this meant you enjoyed being part of it.

[Jud]

Hmm, could an objective audio review magazine even have interesting articles about cables?  ?