Pink Faun 2.16

[matthias]

On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 6:46 AM, flkin said:

Hi Matt, I wouldn't know for sure but I guess they have to select shows to attend due the effort involved?

 

 Maybe, but it is THE show in Benelux, even Taiko Audio is there.

 

Matt

[Pink Faun]

On 9/8/2019 at 12:50 AM, matthias said:

@Pink Faun

@flkin

Why is Pink Faun not on the exhibitor list of X-FI Show this year?

Thanks

 

Matt

Hello Matt, We went to the High-end in Munich earlier this year, and did the X-fi in 2018. Doing the shows costs so much of our time, we have to make a choice. We'll attent at the X-fi next year for sure. When you're living in the Benelux you're always welcome at Pink Faun HQ to have a listen to the streamer 2.16x and have a look in our workshop.  Thanks for understanding, best Jord

[lpost]

Hey guys, a couple of days ago I updated ASRock x370 Pro Gaming MB bios from 5.10 to 5.80.  The reason I did was to gain the ability to disable spread spectrum (this is a technique to reduce EMI for regulatory limits but does nothing to enhance system SQ as it varies the clock frequency a tiny bit nearly all the time).  Another nice bump in SQ but keep in mind I'm really into very, very minor tweaks at this point so don't expect miracles, just another subtle layer cleaner, smoother, less digital more analog.

 

Keep in mind if you upgrade, all your settings will be reset to defaults, and previous saved settings cannot be restored via saved slots in bios.  So note whatever you have/like.  Cool n' Quiet was renamed simply PSS - still needs to be disabled.

 

I've settled on 2.2Ghz at 1.00V and only 4 cores all set in bios as AL menu options still don't control cpu speed properly but it's not a big deal as bios works always.

 

In Linux my NIC name changed so be prepared to 'find' it if you have specified it by name in rtirq.conf  - The network takes longer to come up with this bios even with all on-board NICs disabled.  I run a PCIe fiber NIC.

 

I'm liking ramroot, no isolated cores, Roon straight - HQPe still is out because of the fingerprint.  I don't think it's adding anything at this point though so I'm leaving it behind...for now.

 

Oh, adding a 1.5s buffer to ALSA has also made it all just a little smoother...but of course it introduces a 1.5 secs delay in responding to transport commands.

 

I still give priority to RAATServer (rtapp) and I2S board and fiber NIC (rtirq) - none for Roonserver/Roonappliance

[Miska]

56 minutes ago, lpost said:

The reason I did was to gain the ability to disable spread spectrum (this is a technique to reduce EMI for regulatory limits but does nothing to enhance system SQ as it varies the clock frequency a tiny bit nearly all the time).

 

It does help precisely because of that. The interference is spread to wider spectrum at lower level. When properly done it looks more like random noise rather than discrete tones. Which is good and fully intentional.

 

IOW, it works as intended. No need to disable it, I would rather want to make sure it is enabled.

 

P.S. None of these clocks are used to clock audio, so from audio perspective it has only positive sides.

 

Quote

I'm liking ramroot, no isolated cores, Roon straight - HQPe still is out because of the fingerprint.  I don't think it's adding anything at this point though so I'm leaving it behind...for now.

 

HQPlayer is not supposed to add anything, just improve DAC's analog reconstruction accuracy by DSP means. I'd be curious to see objective comparison results (measurements). Which DAC is this?

 

[lpost]

Well, for now, I like the sound with spread spectrum disabled.  I don't measure with anything but my ears, brain, heart and soul.  I'm not totally subjective but I can't hear or feel measurements so they hold very little value in my enjoyment of music.

 

Perhaps a little was lost in translation, by not adding anything I mean not improving the SQ.  It does change it slightly but it's just a slightly different flavor a great.  Because I run a I2S board that is limited to 192 PCM I don't upsample.  DAC is PS Audio DS.  Other DACs may respond more to HQPe (and upsampling to DSD) but I have no experience with any others and my DAC is by design a DSD upsampler.

 

Jussi, you've been so kind as to provide me with 4 new keys as my system fingerprint has changed over the years, and I'm back in a state where the fingerprint matches none of the keys I have and I don't want to bother you again with it on an unsupported system (AL running ramroot) so I'm just enjoying Roon alone.

[Miska]

7 minutes ago, lpost said:

Because I run a I2S board that is limited to 192 PCM I don't upsample.  DAC is PS Audio DS.  Other DACs may respond more to HQPe (and upsampling to DSD) but I have no experience with any others and my DAC is by design a DSD upsampler.

 

You are upsampling in your DAC, but just stuck to the DSP it offers... I try to choose DACs that can work as a plain D/A converter, without any DSP.

 

It doesn't mean that upsampling for example to RedBook to 192k PCM wouldn't make a huge difference. The first step from RedBook upwards matters a lot and there are many different filter options for that operation.

 

Of course if you don't use HQPlayer's DSP capabilities, HQPlayer is pretty much pointless for you.

 

I personally don't use Roon much these days. I play Tidal through UPnP to HQPlayer Embedded. And local content through HQPlayer directly without Roon. For me, Roon doesn't provide any extra value.

 

[lpost]

It's great to have options.  I put up with Roon's limitations because of what it adds to my music discovery and knowledge.  I also use the linked (and separate) zones extensively, along with numerous control points around the house and back yard, and shop as well as voice control via Alexa.

 

I've tried upsampling Redbook to 192/176 and found it very difficult to hear any appreciable difference.  The DS is not stuck, there are ~15 versions any of which one can choose to run and a new one approx. every 6 months or so.

 

I just switched back to spread spectrum on and back to off and it's clearly better off to my ears.

 

The point of my post was to let others with the Pink Faun 2.16 know of the new bios option and let them try it in their systems with their ears, not to debate or compare player software nor upsampling nor objective vs. subjective valuation of SQ

 

Cheers and happy listening to all!

[Miska]

36 minutes ago, lpost said:

It's great to have options.  I put up with Roon's limitations because of what it adds to my music discovery and knowledge.  I also use the linked (and separate) zones extensively, along with numerous control points around the house and back yard, and shop as well as voice control via Alexa.

 

I also have numerous control points, which are mostly my mobile phones and computers. But Roon is limiting my ability to find what I'm looking for... I also have many DACs, servers and endpoints and want to be able to play from any server to any endpoint.

 

Other than that, I'm sound quality driven and I dislike being distracted by devices when actually listening something.

 

38 minutes ago, lpost said:

The DS is not stuck, there are ~15 versions any of which one can choose to run and a new one approx. every 6 months or so.

 

OK, I don't know how many different filter and modulator options it offers and what kind of performance those have. But overall it is just not kind of device for me, so I don't really pay attention.

 

By stuck I mean I want to choose the kind of DSP I want with the kind of DAC I want without binding the two. Just like I'm not into active speakers because I want to choose amp and speakers separately.

 

44 minutes ago, lpost said:

I just switched back to spread spectrum on and back to off and it's clearly better off to my ears.

 

I'm always worried if such thing makes a difference, it means that there's no proper isolation between computer and the DAC... And then that's the problem I want to tackle (reason why I created NAA).

 

[Pink Faun]

14 hours ago, lpost said:

Hey guys, a couple of days ago I updated ASRock x370 Pro Gaming MB bios from 5.10 to 5.80.  The reason I did was to gain the ability to disable spread spectrum (this is a technique to reduce EMI for regulatory limits but does nothing to enhance system SQ as it varies the clock frequency a tiny bit nearly all the time).  Another nice bump in SQ but keep in mind I'm really into very, very minor tweaks at this point so don't expect miracles, just another subtle layer cleaner, smoother, less digital more analog.

 

Keep in mind if you upgrade, all your settings will be reset to defaults, and previous saved settings cannot be restored via saved slots in bios.  So note whatever you have/like.  Cool n' Quiet was renamed simply PSS - still needs to be disabled.

 

I've settled on 2.2Ghz at 1.00V and only 4 cores all set in bios as AL menu options still don't control cpu speed properly but it's not a big deal as bios works always.

 

In Linux my NIC name changed so be prepared to 'find' it if you have specified it by name in rtirq.conf  - The network takes longer to come up with this bios even with all on-board NICs disabled.  I run a PCIe fiber NIC.

 

I'm liking ramroot, no isolated cores, Roon straight - HQPe still is out because of the fingerprint.  I don't think it's adding anything at this point though so I'm leaving it behind...for now.

 

Oh, adding a 1.5s buffer to ALSA has also made it all just a little smoother...but of course it introduces a 1.5 secs delay in responding to transport commands.

 

I still give priority to RAATServer (rtapp) and I2S board and fiber NIC (rtirq) - none for Roonserver/Roonappliance

Please only go into BIOS and change setting only of you're exactly now what you're doing. The Pink Faun streamer 2.16 comes with BIOS already setup for good performance. It's okay to play around with different setting, but please be careful.

 

Hello lpost, thanks for your insights in testing the spread spectrum option. Spread spectrum clocking causes the signal regulation circuit to slightly vary the frequency about the target frequency, effectively "spreading" the power over a somewhat larger frequency band. As you can imagine, even the smallest variation in a clocking signal can be enough to create data transfer errors. The fundamentals of the Pink Faun steamer 2.16 demand the cleanest, purest signal possible, which is why spread spectrum should always be disabled.

[Pink Faun]

Some more information about Spread Spectrum Control (not my text)

Spread spectrum controls are really added to motherboards for one purpose only - they are sometimes needed so that a device for sale within the US can include a legitimate Declaration of Conformity stating compliance with Part 15 of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) Rules. This stipulates that operation of the device (motherboard), (a) may not cause harmful interference, and (b) must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation. Sales of electronic devices within the US require the strict observation of all FCC rules and regulations.
As a general requirement, every motherboard must be capable of generating and distributing more than one common clocking signal used to coordinate latching times as needed for the transfer and receipt of data across the many high-speed interfaces found in today's systems. Because it is uncommon for different busses to share similar operating frequencies, and because each must be kept independent of the others, a significant portion of motherboard resources are spent locating, monitoring, and regulating these circuits. Each circuit must include a reference frequency, or known base frequency, from which all other frequencies can be derived. A local oscillator usual provides this functionality.
The problem is these oscillators can sometimes cause electromagnetic interference (EMI) centered about their operating frequencies. In an effort to prevent these types of undesired interferences the FCC, an independent licensing organization for devices capable of transmitting electromagnetic signals, either intended or otherwise, operating under the purview of the US government, enacted "Rule 15," effectively limiting the output power of such devices.
Engineers, looking for a way to meet regulation, began using a method for limiting such interferences called spread spectrum clocking. Spread spectrum clocking causes the signal regulation circuit to slightly vary the frequency about the target frequency, effectively "spreading" the power over a somewhat larger frequency band. The method of operation can be used to control system output power below the FCC standard limits, allowing for a claim of full compliance.

[Miska]

CE conformance requirements in Europe are quite similar to the FCC ones. Similar ones apply for many Asian countries as well.

 

Why do I talk about this? Reason is that one of the most typical problems I measure from DAC outputs are discrete spurious tones caused by fixed frequency interference signals. So I'm personally doing my best to reduce level and amount of such fixed frequency interferences. Spread spectrum is one of the tools for that...

 

For example CPU clocks can be varied in very large range without effect in correctness. Similar for RAM too because it is synchronously clocked (thus clock doesn't affect correctness, only speed). One can of course use ECC RAM to ensure correctness, for example my Xeon E5 workstation has ECC RAM.

 

Main offender is USB Audio Class 2 though, which uses 8 kHz packet rate that can be seen in output of many DACs.

[lpost]

8 hours ago, Pink Faun said:

Please only go into BIOS and change setting only of you're exactly now what you're doing. The Pink Faun streamer 2.16 comes with BIOS already setup for good performance. It's okay to play around with different setting, but please be careful.

 

 

Yes, thanks, I should have qualified my post with don't do any of this unless you know what you're doing.  Until this latest BIOS release from ASRock, spread spectrum was not accessible in BIOS, unless it was called something different.  This latest v5.80 has SS enabled by default.  

 

It seems there are many ways to skin a cat (a saying I never really like to think much about) and there are a great many variables to deal with or I try to look at them as options.  I don't really care what the specs say or in theory what something should sound like.  If I like the way a particular option 'changes' the noise in my setup, I'll go with it.  Of course, only those things that won't put my system in jeopardy like over clocking etc.  I go the opposite by down core and reducing voltages as I find I prefer the sound and less heat is produced as a bonus!

[Pink Faun]

On 9/8/2019 at 12:50 AM, matthias said:

@Pink Faun

@flkin

Why is Pink Faun not on the exhibitor list of X-FI Show this year?

Thanks

 

Matt

Hello Matt, small correction to my previous post, we're not at the X-fi as exhibitor, but you can have a listen to streamer 2.16 in the room of Very Fine Solutions. The Pink Faun streamer 2.16 is connected to the MSB Discrete DAC with DUAL power supply. Enjoy!

[Pink Faun]

First part of the Mono&Stereo review of the Pink Faun streamer 2.16x is now online. 

https://www.monoandstereo.com/2019/11/pink-faun-streamer-216x-review-part-one.html#more

[flkin]

Congratulations Jord for the award! Nice 😄

[k27R]

Congrats!

[nbpf]

Is it possible (and meaningful) to connect the Pink Faun S/PDIF Bridge to a standard mainboard? I do not need the power of the 2.16 (2.16x) streamers. I am currently using an Allo DigiOne Signature (hosted by a Raspberry Pi 3B+ running upmpdcli in a minimal Raspbian system without internal audio, HDMI output, USB bus and bluetooth) and I was wandering whether a low-power mainboard with a Pink Faun S/PDIF Bridge and OCXO clocks would be a worthwhile improvement over the DigiOne Signature. Thanks, nbpf

[Pink Faun]

10 hours ago, nbpf said:

Is it possible (and meaningful) to connect the Pink Faun S/PDIF Bridge to a standard mainboard? I do not need the power of the 2.16 (2.16x) streamers. I am currently using an Allo DigiOne Signature (hosted by a Raspberry Pi 3B+ running upmpdcli in a minimal Raspbian system without internal audio, HDMI output, USB bus and bluetooth) and I was wandering whether a low-power mainboard with a Pink Faun S/PDIF Bridge and OCXO clocks would be a worthwhile improvement over the DigiOne Signature. Thanks, nbpf

Hello, good question. As with everything it’s about implementation. When you implement the Pink Faun SPDIF Bridge in the right way it will be an improvement over the Allo DigiOne. The SPDIF Bridge is a PCIe card, so at least the motherboard you’re using must have one free PCIe slot. Also linear PSU for both motherboard and SPDIF Bridge is important. When you want to upgrade in a few steps, start with a linear PSU on the SPDIF Bridge with OCXO.

[nbpf]

4 minutes ago, Pink Faun said:

Hello, good question. As with everything it’s about implementation. When you implement the Pink Faun SPDIF Bridge in the right way it will be an improvement over the Allo DigiOne. The SPDIF Bridge is a PCIe card, so at least the motherboard you’re using must have one free PCIe slot. Also linear PSU for both motherboard and SPDIF Bridge is important. When you want to upgrade in a few steps, start with a linear PSU on the SPDIF Bridge with OCXO.

 

Thanks for the feedback! I am currently powering the RPi side of the DigiOne Signature with an UpTone Audio JS-2 and the "clean" side with a LPS-1.2. The idea would be to use the same components for the motherboard and for the Pink Faun SPDIF Bridge. Any recommendation for a very low-power motherboard with PCIe slots and 12V power supply? Is there anything like that at all? I have used very low-power fitPC devices as audio servers in the past but no device with PCIe slots so far. Thanks, nbpf 

[Pink Faun]

On 11/14/2019 at 9:02 AM, nbpf said:

Thanks for the feedback! I am currently powering the RPi side of the DigiOne Signature with an UpTone Audio JS-2 and the "clean" side with a LPS-1.2. The idea would be to use the same components for the motherboard and for the Pink Faun SPDIF Bridge. Any recommendation for a very low-power motherboard with PCIe slots and 12V power supply? Is there anything like that at all? I have used very low-power fitPC devices as audio servers in the past but no device with PCIe slots so far. Thanks, nbpf 

Hello, I do not have experience with recent small formfactor mother boards. Maybe someone else have better recommendation. As for the PSU, the Pink Faun SPDIF bridge + OCXO clock can powered through the 2,5mm barrel with a 5v/2A supply.

[nbpf]

13 minutes ago, Pink Faun said:

Hello, I do not have experience with recent small formfactor mother boards. Maybe someone else have better recommendation. As for the PSU, the Pink Faun SPDIF bridge + OCXO clock can powered through the 2,5mm barrel with a 5v/2A supply.

Great, thanks? Perhaps a low power, small form, headless device that can host the PF interface cards would be a nice complement to the current PF range of products? Best, nbpf

[nbpf]

1 hour ago, nbpf said:

Great, thanks? Perhaps a low power, small form, headless device that can host the PF interface cards would be a nice complement to the current PF range of products? Best, nbpf

Sorry for the typo: I meant to write "Great, thanks!", not "Great, thanks?"!

[lpost]

Any of my fellow 2.16 owners running the most recent Audio Linux yet?

 

I've been happily running with updates as current as ~Oct 2019 but always curious to find what benefits others have found with the more recent version.

[flkin]

Hi Brett,

 

Switched to Euphony and haven’t looked back since. Far easier to setup/use/upgrade and next step in sound (when I was using the older AL). 

[lpost]

Hi there,

 

Perhaps I'll give it a try.  I've grown weary of the quirks in AL.  Currently, SSH is disabled as a ArchLinux system update deemed it a security risk, I didn't get the memo until it was already applied and there doesn't seem to be an alternative other than a fresh updated install.  Far too much work for likely nothing to be gained, particularly when the system is working and sounding fine otherwise.