Why does SPDIF basically suck?

[mansr]

15 minutes ago, adamdea said:

What do you regard as the idea transmission mechanism?

Depends on the requirements. If a single interface was always the best, we wouldn't have so many different ones.

[adamdea]

14 minutes ago, mansr said:

Depends on the requirements. If a single interface was always the best, we wouldn't have so many different ones.

How about for connecting a computer to a dac?

(and btw I'm pretty sure we would have a good few different ones whether one was better or not -cf BNC and rca connectors for s/pdif)

[mansr]

15 minutes ago, adamdea said:

How about for connecting a computer to a dac?

That doesn't really narrow it down.

 

15 minutes ago, adamdea said:

(and btw I'm pretty sure we would have a good few different ones whether one was better or not -cf BNC and rca connectors for s/pdif)

RCA is cheaper. Sometimes that matters more than the slightly better connection provided by BNC.

[adamdea]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

That doesn't really narrow it down.

less than 5m, it's a bog standard computer. It might be used for other things.What else?

[PeterG]

When you say "suck", I assume you mean the sound quality you're getting is lousy, as opposed to you think it sucks for an arcane technical reason, so at the risk of unleashing about a hundred posts on how only a fool would pay more than $1.69 for a cable...

 

I had an interesting SPDIF experience when I upgraded from my Mac Mini to a Naim Uniti Core, a very good SPDIF-only source.  My dealer had me take home a Nordost Blue Heaven cable, their least expensive true BNC-BNC SPDIF at $225; and an over the top Goldmund demo cable, that retailed for ~$800, but they would let me have for $500. 

 

Having no intention of dropping $500 on a cable, I used the Nordost for the first couple of days and loved the sound of my new Uniti Core.  But, what the hell, might as well try the Goldmund, just for fun.  I listened for about a half hour, and thought it was even better, i.e. more resolving, than the Nordost.  So I decided to splurge and I bought the Goldmund, returning the Nordost.

 

Funny thing happened an evening later when I was able to listen to the Naim-Goldmund combo at length.  Also, just to be clear, this was listening for fun and relaxation, completely in noncritical mode.  For the first time, I found my new Naim to be kind of fatiguing.  I figured I was just tired, so I turned it off.  But next day it wasn't any better, and I began to suspect the cable.  I returned the Goldmund the following day, and picked up the Nordost--back to bliss!

 

So I do not know if there's a better cable than the Nordost Blue Heaven available for 1/10 the price, and obviously I was not as disciplined as I should have been about cable selection.  But let's also keep in mind that I avoided all the normal pitfalls ascribed to fancy cable selection---I had already decided that the fancier cable was best when I realized it was not during a noncritical session.

 

Moral of the story--if you think your SPDIF sucks, it might be the cable.

[Summit]

5 hours ago, miguelito said:

You mean the same cables and connectors used in lab equipment to get very clean multi-gigahertz signals around? The same connector used in just about all scopes, even the fastest ones?

 

The BNC connector is very hard to improve on. 

 

If you want use coax cables and connectors normally used in lab equipment it will work well. If it’s also the ultimate best for sound is another story I don’t wish to debate.  

 

The BNC connector is very good, but some like the 110 Ω AES/EBU even better. 

[Summit]

17 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

 

Fair enough! My experience is the opposite with respect to coax vs usb. I guess that's why they say YMMV

 

 

Okay am curious, which DACs and Music players that have both coax and USB have you used?

[Panelhead]

3 minutes ago, Summit said:

 

Okay am curious, which DACs and Music players that have both coax and USB have you used?

  I have a Light Harmonic Infinity. It has AES, Coax, and USB inputs. The hard part was finding a source with both coax and AES outputs. 

  But with my cheap system and tin ears the order was AES, coax, and USB. I no longer use the Infinity. But if I did I have a coax now made with 12G 4K UHF cable. Maybe it is better than the Canare, Gotham, and Sommer RG6 used in the first evaluation. 

[Summit]

7 hours ago, Marcin_gps said:

 

All DDCs I've tried add coloration - it can be good or bad depending on the system and a DDC, but it's one more component in the chain plus an extra cable. It always alters the sound. 

If one has a clean USB output from a PC (or streamer) and a USB input board in a DAC is done right (a separate PSU, decent clock etc), I don't see a reason to use a DDC. In my system any DDC affects performance negatively. 

 

I see that you totally dismiss my experience and my theory regarding conversions between different digital interfaces. But okay let’s say that you are correct and I like some added coloration. If that’s true it must also be the reason I have a JCAT LAN, don’t you think? I mean my preference for some extra coloration is probably constant. 

 

Don’t worry you are not alone in your thought about the degradation caused by conversions between different digital interfaces or the deprivation made by adding more component in the digital transmission chain. I can only report what I hear and it’s not in line with your or most others in this thread. But it’s not all. Not only do I use a JCAT LAN and a DDC. Those are connected to my ultraRendu, which besides being a RoonReady output converts Ethernet to USB which is a sort of Digital to Digital Converter (DDC) .

[Summit]

8 minutes ago, Panelhead said:

  I have a Light Harmonic Infinity. It has AES, Coax, and USB inputs. The hard part was finding a source with both coax and AES outputs. 

  But with my cheap system and tin ears the order was AES, coax, and USB. I no longer use the Infinity. But if I did I have a coax now made with 12G 4K UHF cable. Maybe it is better than the Canare, Gotham, and Sommer RG6 used in the first evaluation. 

 

I have a 12G 4K UHF cable and its okay, but I clearly prefer my AQ Eagle Eye. I have put 8 ferrets on it and it has enhance the sound more than I thought possible.

[look&listen]

10 minutes ago, Summit said:

I have put 8 ferrets on it and it has enhance the sound more than I thought possible.

Surprised still passes signal after ferrets done chewing!

[Summit]

18 minutes ago, look&listen said:

Surprised still passes signal after ferrets done chewing!

 

Yes it’s so strange and still so typical of high fidelity – What we may think must be the best design or approach is not always so IRL.

[look&listen]

53 minutes ago, Summit said:

Yes it’s so strange and still so typical of high fidelity

 

[sandyk]

9 hours ago, adamdea said:

Ooh I used to have one of those.

 So did another couple of friends of mine.

However, their performance was WAY below that of their claims and those of most reviewers. However, they improved markedly with a good low noise dual rail external power supply instead of the A.C. wallwart, the addition of voltage regulators for the analogue section, and as you can see in the photo, a .3PPM 24.576MHZ TCXO powered by a variation of the PFM " Flea"  low noise supply to it.

However , they did a pretty decent job in the Digital area.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

10 hours ago, PeterG said:

Moral of the story--if you think your SPDIF sucks, it might be the cable.

 

In your case I would suggest there may have been other variables in play apart from the cable change. People often report a subjective difference in their sound system at different listening sessions. attributability is often difficult to nail down. Whether legend or fact, noisy power grids are sometimes blamed. 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

8 hours ago, Summit said:

 

Okay am curious, which DACs and Music players that have both coax and USB have you used?

 

Some years back I started to wonder about changing to computer usb over transport/spdif when I was getting sound quality from a laptop into an RME Babyface DAC that rivaled my Reference Mark Levinson 31.5 > aes/ebu (or coax spdif or AT&T ST fibre) >30.6. I listened extensively to many combos & dacs at various dealers, too many to list, some of which i also auditioned at home including MSB Platinum stack and a UMT transport, tried and purchased Bricasti Mi Dac and then Gryphon Kalliope.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

8 hours ago, Summit said:

 

I see that you totally dismiss my experience and my theory regarding conversions between different digital interfaces. But okay let’s say that you are correct and I like some added coloration. If that’s true it must also be the reason I have a JCAT LAN, don’t you think? I mean my preference for some extra coloration is probably constant. 

 

Nice jab !

[miguelito]

9 hours ago, Summit said:

 

If you want use coax cables and connectors normally used in lab equipment it will work well. If it’s also the ultimate best for sound is another story I don’t wish to debate.  

 

The BNC connector is very good, but some like the 110 Ω AES/EBU even better. 

That’s a balanced connection, a different beast. We are talking clocking here. BNC is perfect for that.

[Ralf11]

actually, any preference for some extra coloration is probably not constant but depends on surroundings, food, drinks, seasons, visual inputs, and all sorts of things that happened to you recently

[beerandmusic]

On 5/11/2018 at 1:47 PM, Melvin said:

I'm surprised GUTB didn't start this thread.

i had to look twice....

[Ralf11]

red the 1st page - I quoted barrows

[beerandmusic]

On 5/11/2018 at 4:23 PM, Superdad said:

Uh, I think the obvious is being overlooked here:

 

Forget the DAC for a moment.  If the source is a computer (or some form thereof) playing back files (ripped from CD, downloaded, streamed, whatever), then that data has to exit the computer in some format.  While I know there are some music servers with S/PDIF output--and some sound cards with the same--a computer is a nasty environment within which to place audio clocks and S/PDIF transmitting parts.

 

So the vast majority of "computer audiophiles" are sending the data from their computers towards their DACs either via USB or Ethernet.  And at some point--generally in the DAC--that data will go through PHY chips/processor and a protocol engine and be turned into I2S/DSD for the actual DAC chips/ladders, whatever.

 

Thus use of S/PDIF or AES EBU inputs on a DAC generally requires the use of a DDC, most of which take the form of a USB>S/PDIF converter.  While of course quality of implementation is the key, think about the general data flow.  

That is, which is the better path?:

a) Computer USB>  USB input of DDC > S/PDIF transmitter (embedding clock in data) > S/PDIF cable > DAC's S/PDIF receiver chip> reclocking > I2S for the DAC section.  

OR

b) Computer USB> USB input of DAC > I2S to the DAC section.

And an Ethernet-input DAC is about equivalent: Ethernet PHY/processor > I2S

 

Any DAC manufacturer who still says their S/PDIF input is better than their own USB input is simply admitting that they can't design a decent USB or Ethernet input board (or they want to sell their own outboard DDC).

 

Just my $0.02  

 

i think spdif sounds better than usb if you have a noisy computer...if that has been addressed, then usb can sound as good or better.

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, beerandmusic said:

 

i think spdif sounds better than usb if you have a noisy computer...if that has been addressed, then usb can sound as good or better.

 

SPDIF sounds better if it comes from a good internal soundcard, not the motherboard.

[Ralf11]

what about a Jewish motherboard?

[Superdad]

32 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

what about a Jewish motherboard?

 

You mean one that turns itself off at sunset and Friday and won’t turn on until Saturday night?