Network Isolation

[sig8]

Sure; I just did.

[sdolezalek]

Is there general agreement that the most important location for the optical link is between the NAS and the DAC (or whatever piece of electrical equipment sits closest to the DAC in the signal path? If so, how important is the power supply for the optical to Ethernet bridge at the DAC end of the transition?

[jabbr]

Is there general agreement that the most important location for the optical link is between the NAS and the DAC (or whatever piece of electrical equipment sits closest to the DAC in the signal path? If so, how important is the power supply for the optical to Ethernet bridge at the DAC end of the transition?

 

Yes. I like using 5V batteries, which are reasonably quiet, cheap and eliminate the issue of a ground noise. For similar reasons, I also use batteries in the I-V section of the DAC because it isolates the digital-analog ground.

[gldgate]

I've been meaning to mention for some time now that I've encountered some bogus/counterfeit Intel x520 cards on ebay. These cards may sort of work but often have problems with bios, and don't, for example, iSCSI boot etc. A good way to verify real Intel is to look for the 'Yottamark' sticker: Yottamark* Sticker on Intel® Ethernet Adapters for Network and I O

 

I wonder if the knockoffs have SQ issues?

 

I've had some problems with Mellanox cards also getting very hot in fanless machines ... YMMV.

 

Thank you for the Yattamark link. IMO the most difficult part of making the switch from copper to fiber can be the SFP PCIe cards. Especially if folks take the Ebay approach and try to hunt for a bargain. Card compatability issues and counterfeits can be stumbling blocks. This should help greatly.

[kevin1969]

Do you want to know a real simple solution to all these Ethernet noise problems? Instead of wasting all this money upgrading your entire in-house network to optical just buy a 1000T to 1000X bridge. They are not expensive at all. Here ya go! Problem solved

 

http://www.transition.com/TransitionNetworks/Products2/Family.aspx?Name=SBFFG10xx-1xx

[ted_b]

Do you want to know a real simple solution to all these Ethernet noise problems? Instead of wasting all this money upgrading your entire in-house network to optical just buy a 1000T to 1000X bridge. They are not expensive at all. Here ya go! Problem solved

 

OAM/IP Remotely Managed 10/100/1000BASE-T to 1000BASE-X

 

In what way? What do you send to a switch? How about each pc in the music room (assuming you are doing HQP and NAA). How about to the NAS? Ethernet renderer? Router? Where do you recommend we put this to solve all issues?

[kennyb123]

Do you want to know a real simple solution to all these Ethernet noise problems? Instead of wasting all this money upgrading your entire in-house network to optical just buy a 1000T to 1000X bridge. They are not expensive at all. Here ya go! Problem solved

 

In your post above you seek an explanation for the noise problems. So if you don't understand what's going on, how can you claim to have the solution?

[kevin1969]

In your post above you seek an explanation for the noise problems. So if you don't understand what's going on, how can you claim to have the solution?

 

Well nobody has really explained how they can prove the noise exists in the first place nor how the noise effects the musical integrity over the network so I figured I would propose a very simple solution that isolates the Gigabit Ethernet copper network with a simple Electrical to Optical transceiver. This way none of that electromagnetic interference on your copper Ethernet network can possibly seep into the optical path.

 

***** 1000-BaseTX

-------- 1000-BaseX

+++++ RCA cables to amp

ControlPoint = Server, Blue sound, other music streaming client

 

 

NAS*******Switch/Router******ControlPoint******Transceiver--------DAC++++AMP

[kevin1969]

In what way? What do you send to a switch? How about each pc in the music room (assuming you are doing HQP and NAA). How about to the NAS? Ethernet renderer? Router? Where do you recommend we put this to solve all issues?

 

What exactly do you think an Ethernet renderer is?

[kennyb123]

Well nobody has really explained how they can prove the noise exists in the first place nor how the noise effects the musical integrity over the network so I figured I would propose a very simple solution that isolates the Gigabit Ethernet copper network with a simple Electrical to Optical transceiver.

 

Why should anyone have to prove or explain anything? Many of us can just sit back and enjoy the benefits without having to have an explanation as to why what we did made such an improvement for such a reasonable cost.

[tranz]

And it is such a relatively cheap tweak to try. Put a $ per hour on the time spent arguing/debating and you could have already paid for it. Trust your ears.

[jabbr]

Well nobody has really explained how they can prove the noise exists in the first place nor how the noise effects the musical integrity over the network so I figured I would propose a very simple solution that isolates the Gigabit Ethernet copper network with a simple Electrical to Optical transceiver. This way none of that electromagnetic interference on your copper Ethernet network can possibly seep into the optical path.

 

***** 1000-BaseTX

-------- 1000-BaseX

+++++ RCA cables to amp

ControlPoint = Server, Blue sound, other music streaming client

 

 

NAS*******Switch/Router******ControlPoint******Transceiver--------DAC++++AMP

 

Uh... you've missed essentially all of a discussion here in which many things have been proposed etc. --- feel free to read the thread --- in any case you are describing an FMC which is where we suggest you start out. The FMC is the electrical optical transceiver you are looking for. If you power it with a 5v battery then there is no electrical connection (including ground) in which noise might travel

[ted_b]

--- in any case you are describing an FMC which is where we suggest you start out. The FMC is the electrical optical transceiver you are looking for. If you power it with a 5v battery then there is no electrical connection (including ground) in which noise might travel

 

Yes, that was my point. If he had my system (which includes a couple ethernet streamer/renderers (not sure why he doesn't trust I know...hell I just reveiwed two of them here) he'd need NINE of them (since he proposes no fiber switch, etc).

[John769]

I read somewhere that the Intel fiber NIC's maybe of better quality, so I just replaced the fiber NIC in my HQPC from Mellanox to Intel x520. As soon as I put it in, I got little harshness in sound (very little). I thought may be it will go away so I let it burn for 3-4 weeks, but it did not change at all, so I finally gave up last night and put my Mellanox card back in HQPC, and things came back to where they were, and the upper end harshness disappeared.

 

Well I bought two cards (£70 each) that, according to the seller, were unused Dell (Intel) X520-DA 2 cards, pulled from new servers. They sounded more open top to bottom (and especially in the mids) in comparison to my previous LR Link single mode card. No harshness detected to my (admittedly jaded) ears.

 

Anyhow, I did some research this morning. The guy from Intel checked the mac address on my pc as well as the corresponding number on the front of the card. On his system, it flagged as a genuine Intel OEM version but he said I should contact Dell to be absolutely sure. At Dell they looked up the number on the back sticker, starting MY- and said it was a genuine Dell card. NB The Intel Yotamark on OEM cards is often removed and replaced by the OEM's version and doesn't mean the card is fake. Hope that helps.

 

 

[John769]

Actually maybe not a good idea to leave complete serial number visible.

 

Wait... I can't do an edit after a couple of minutes on this site or even remove the picture, so it's stuck there now.

 

Chris, maybe you could consider relaxing the (unnecessarily paranoid, imho) rules on editing?

 

Cheers,

[kevin1969]

Uh... you've missed essentially all of a discussion here in which many things have been proposed etc. --- feel free to read the thread --- in any case you are describing an FMC which is where we suggest you start out. The FMC is the electrical optical transceiver you are looking for. If you power it with a 5v battery then there is no electrical connection (including ground) in which noise might travel

 

Yes and if you have one of those noise is not a problem. Well until the cable manufacturers convince everyone that Optical cables carry light pollution which ruins your music.

[jabbr]

Yes and if you have one of those noise is not a problem. Well until the cable manufacturers convince everyone that Optical cables carry light pollution which ruins your music.

 

This all got started as a response to the so-called audiophile Ethernet cables -- that and liking the sound of Corning's optical USB cable.

[kevin1969]

I have some Corning optical cables which I wrap around my china in the china cabinet. After all it's better to look good than to sound good

[Oystein]

I am building a new setup with some of the shelf parts.

BeagleBone Black + ES9023 DAC board + Tentlabs clock and some other parts like power supply.

 

Looking at network isolation I was thinking what can I use to achieve that.

I already have a Baaske NI-1005 LAN isolator but would completely avoiding a LAN connection and use wifi instead give better results?

 

I have a Wifi extender / wifi bridge / acces point model EX2700 from Netgear.

 

 

A very compact unit which plugs directly in the power socket.

Could I use the internal board and have it fed by a dedicated clean power supply and somehow integrate it in my setup ?

 

To see what is possible I had to take it apart = destroying the housing ;-)

As the unit only costs 25 Euro it is worth the experiment.

The internals are 2 PCB’s, a power supply section and the “Wifi/LAN” PCB.

The power is fed through an 8-pin connector although they are grouped as 4 pins are ground and the other 4 pins are 3.3V.

 

The wifi PCB is only 5x6 cm.

 

 

 

 

I still need to connect it to a clean 3.3V power supply or even a shunt regulator and connect it to my Beaglebone.

As I still need to make a new enclosure I can put the antenna(’s) outside the box. Maybe even one antenna will do for my application.

 

Will take a few weeks before I have conncted and tested it but who knows what the outcome will be.

[pl_svn]

not sure how you plan using wi-fi but... the day I changed from wi-fi to ethernet the connection between my NAS, where my music files are, and Mac mini... wow!

 

further, more subtle, improvements came afterwards when I also started using LPSs and optical isolation

[Oystein]

The wifi board will be fed by a low noise LPS.

 

And the rest is just a matter of trying to see what works best ...

Experimenting is fun ... :-)

[jumper]

Are there any recommendations for currently available fiber switches? I'm searching the thread but don't see any consensus.

[gldgate]

Are there any recommendations for currently available fiber switches? I'm searching the thread but don't see any consensus.

 

Many of us have this one:

 

9 ports Gigabit Ethernet Optical Fiber Switch with 8 SFP ports and 1*10/100/1000Mbps RJ45-in Fiber Optic Equipments from Phones & Telecommunications on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group

 

It may be the OEM offshoot of this one:

 

http://www.amazon.com/CableRack-Port-Optical-Switch-1000M/dp/B009L5V5NQ/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1457313711&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=diabo+optical+switch

 

 

I've had this switch for 7 months without any issues. If I remember correctly it took about 3 weeks to receive it from China.

 

 

edit: Just saw that Jabbr (in optical network configuration thread) also identified a Cisco switch if you want to go with a more expensive name brand:

 

http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/switches/sg300-10sfp-10-port-gigabit-managed-sfp-switch/model.html

[jumper]

Many of us have this one:

 

9 ports Gigabit Ethernet Optical Fiber Switch with 8 SFP ports and 1*10/100/1000Mbps RJ45-in Fiber Optic Equipments from Phones & Telecommunications on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group

 

It may be the OEM offshoot of this one:

 

http://www.amazon.com/CableRack-Port-Optical-Switch-1000M/dp/B009L5V5NQ/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1457313711&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=diabo+optical+switch

 

I've had this switch for 7 months without any issues. If I remember correctly it took about 3 weeks to receive it from China.

 

Thanks. Looks like the exact same one I found on Amazon but for half the price.

 

I have a pc I plan on using as a NAS style server. Would it be ideal to install a fiber PCIe card, fiber cable to this 9 port switch, fiber cable to an FMC, then Cat6 to a streamer?

[gldgate]

Thanks. Looks like the exact same one I found on Amazon but for half the price.

 

I have a pc I plan on using as a NAS style server. Would it be ideal to install a fiber PCIe card, fiber cable to this 9 port switch, fiber cable to an FMC, then Cat6 to a streamer?

 

It's obviously a personal choice but that's what I've done - optical switch, FMC's and SFP PCIe cards. One thing I will say is that fiber PCIe cards can be a bit finicky depending on what motherboard you have. I generally buy a lot of my optical gear used via ebay (bargain hunting) and went through about 4 cards to find 2 that worked well in my system (Audio and Control PC).